Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[BU508A]

Hager,  sweet and easy.

That's essentially the same. Hager has bought Tehalit in 1996. 

https://www.rheinpfalz.de/wirtschaft_artikel,-tehalit-strebt-wieder-aufw%C3%A4rts-_arid,95221.html

[Cerebus]

This is America, everything is bigger over there. Houses too. 

Divorce settlements too. 

[Cerebus]

The regulation in germany (with it's reversible plugs) is even such that it's not defined which side is hot and which side is neutral on the outlet 
All the VDE "Verband Deutscher Elektrotechniker "-regulation says, it should be "the same within the whole installation" -
So the "it's per definition undefined" is deeply engrained here.

Yes amen to that. I can't imagine anything in EU with a schuko plug that require the "hot wire" somewhere....
If something smokes I will post here Cerebus.

anyway, good ideas for my first YT video:

1) comparison EU vs US main standards and safety practices.
2) How to rewire some US home to get the EU stuff running safely.

You be careful now...



And don't order anything from ACME.

[BU508A]

This is only dangerous and harmful if you are a genius like Wile E. Coyote. 

[Cerebus]

[Fx: Bluebottle voice] "Mr. Sellers! Mr. Sellers! Michael Bentine told me to come and find you and tell you I'm a geenius!"

(This will only mean anything if you know both the Goon Show, and its history as told by the perpetrators.)

[tonyalbus]

Found this little fellah in our local ebay 'Marktplaats'
was there for a while, looking at me with its snoopy eyes.. noone saw it i guess.. well what can you do.
so low balled it... and here it is 

[Cymaphore]

Any device tying neutral and ground together within the device is verboten here and as you stated would have to be checked.

Not quite what I was thinking. A lot of people make the assumption that one of the two mains wires coming into a piece of equipment is at or near ground potential, more so if you have a clearly defined neutral like the UK does. It's an assumption that does not get tested when you plug something into a supply where the assumption is true (outside of fault conditions). That assumption is obviously not true if you connect to a US style 240V supply where the centre tap is at ground and both 'hot' and 'return' have significant AC potentials with respect to ground.

The danger here, as I see it, is not conscious design per se but casual assumptions like "Oh, that component is OK, as it can only see neutral and ground it'll only see more than a couple of volts" or "Yes, the clearance and creepage are tight there, but it's only a neutral." that tend to get ingrained because that's all you ever see domestically. It's probably only going to be corner cases and unusual use cases at that, but I'm only too aware of the dangers of "ploughing a rut" in any field of endeavour. We've all seen cases where unspoken assumptions come around to firmly bite someone on the arse. If and when that happens I strongly prefer it if it's not my assumption or my arse.

The regulation in germany (with it's reversible plugs) is even such that it's not defined which side is hot and which side is neutral on the outlet 
All the VDE "Verband Deutscher Elektrotechniker "-regulation says, it should be "the same within the whole installation" -
So the "it's per definition undefined" is deeply engrained here.

Generally I don't see the problem. It doesn't really matter if you are in a single phase installation with grounded neutral (TN), one where neutral is per definition ungrounded (TT) or undefined (IT) or even a two-phase system.

An appliance with a mains plug that becomes unsafe when plugged in the wrong way arround is something that is not permitted by all means. If you can plug it in both ways, it has to operate equally as well both ways.

Now, where is exactly the problem so many people have? The system doesn't allow to make any assumptions about one of the conductors being grounded in europe. Anywhere. Even where it's polarized. The only conductor that allows the assumption is PE.

[FransW]

The regulation in germany (with it's reversible plugs) is even such that it's not defined which side is hot and which side is neutral on the outlet 
All the VDE "Verband Deutscher Elektrotechniker "-regulation says, it should be "the same within the whole installation" -
So the "it's per definition undefined" is deeply engrained here.

Yes amen to that. I can't imagine anything in EU with a schuko plug that require the "hot wire" somewhere....
If something smokes I will post here Cerebus.

anyway, good ideas for my first YT video:

1) comparison EU vs US main standards and safety practices.
2) How to rewire some US home to get the EU stuff running safely.

God bless the USA. Should not be impossoble.
Frans

[FransW]

This is America, everything is bigger over there. Houses too. 

I could be living in a Tesla Gigafactory and still only get permission for the smallest of rooms

McBryce.

All positions one finds himself in are the results of all historic decisions.

[dl6lr]

I could be living in a Tesla Gigafactory and still only get permission for the smallest of rooms

Easy: Make sure the smallest room in your house is at least thirty square meters 

[bd139]

This is America, everything is bigger over there. Houses too. 

Divorce settlements too. 

All I have the time to spam today 

[tonyalbus]

I could be living in a Tesla Gigafactory and still only get permission for the smallest of rooms

Easy: Make sure the smallest room in your house is at least thirty square meters 

I am not making any smart comments here,
i am on the attic with my heater and vantilation system 
but i am allowed to buy stuff when she not finds out.

[ch_scr]

In case you wondered how the ground is coming to both sides?
(At least I hope you were wondering)
Copper tape to the rescue! I have even soldered components comperable on the pcb edge to decouple a tight prototype 

[mnementh]

This is America, everything is bigger over there. Houses too. 

I could be living in a Tesla Gigafactory and still only get permission for the smallest of rooms

McBryce.

All positions one finds himself in are the results of all historic decisions.

Married life is the hand of Karma in action.

mnem
"Current miseries recapitulate past misogynies." - mom

[mansaxel]

No, he just has to treat one of his two live phases as if it was a neutral.  As if anyone would be crazy enough to design an electricity distribution system like that! 



On a more serious note: this can go horribly wrong if some piece of end equipment was designed and/or implemented under the assumption that 'neutral' and 'ground' are equivalent. I'm thinking of some of the shitshow wiring we've seen in some hot air and soldering stations. If it was me personally I'd want to either inspect, PAT test, or hipot test anything before trying the cowboy (civilised world) <-> (wild west) line voltage adaption technique.

It's Edison's fault. Had they obeyed Tesla and Westinghouse a bit earlier, they'd have a much better system today.

I don't think anything that treats Neutral and PE as similar would be to code anywhere. Not that it stops the hot air cost-cutters, though.

[cyclin_al]

2) the mains here in US are a shit show, I already found and corrected few errors in the electrical system in my home. Safety forget about it... but for 0.0924 €/KWh I can't complain too much...

Could you provide a picture of the consumer unit? I'm always curious. :-)

Be careful, some of the NFPA70 practices are quite different from EN. For example, usually the installation cables don't get RCD protection, because it's done via GFCI socket outlets. That's not a fault like it would be in most of Europe, it's a different safety vs. availability philosophy.

I should be able to supply a picture to compare with, within the next week if all goes to plan.

If you are looking at changing breakers, I discovered recently that combined GFCI and Arc Fault Protection breakers are half the price of GFCI protection breakers...
There are lots more discoveries I have made, depending on what you want to accomplish.

[Saskia]

Welcome back, Zucca !

I now have 2 stereo sets I could offer you (due to moving), should I inquire as to the cost of a 300 kg parcel ?

Just teasing ...

Returned from plumbing inspection today. The doc said that my unwillingness to have any piece removed was well founded, there is currently absolutely no medical indication to have any intestinal surgery.

Still waiting for feedback on permanent work from home request.
Weight loss continuing, now at almost 52 lbs (having started out in May). New objective: 100 lbs. We'll see how it goes. Hope to be there by the end of the year.

[mnementh]

Good on ya. I'm afraid to look at the scale; I've been counting calories and carbs for aboot a month now (goal is 30-100g carb & 1500-2000kcal/day), and have been doing pretty well at not cheating. Not going to weigh until I can see some difference looking in the mirror.

mnem
no popcorn; can't afford the carbs.

[mnementh]

No, he just has to treat one of his two live phases as if it was a neutral.  As if anyone would be crazy enough to design an electricity distribution system like that! 



On a more serious note: this can go horribly wrong if some piece of end equipment was designed and/or implemented under the assumption that 'neutral' and 'ground' are equivalent. I'm thinking of some of the shitshow wiring we've seen in some hot air and soldering stations. If it was me personally I'd want to either inspect, PAT test, or hipot test anything before trying the cowboy (civilised world) <-> (wild west) line voltage adaption technique.

It's Edison's fault. Had they obeyed Tesla and Westinghouse a bit earlier, they'd have a much better system today.

I don't think anything that treats Neutral and PE as similar would be to code anywhere. Not that it stops the hot air cost-cutters, though.

Edison just couldn't get over thinking in terms of DC. Motherfucker was much better at turning inventing into a factory than at actually inventing; also very good at shamelessly self-promoting and electrocuting small animals in public squares. 

Westinghouse had the right idea; turn Tesla's genius loose but hand the reins to Edison to ensure something useful and profitable was produced. Sadly, had they realized the true depravity of the slave-state economy/ideology they were birthing, I suspect even Edison would have balked.

mnem
*currently somehow home alone without wife or chiddlers*

[med6753]

Like it or not our electrical wiring system is an Edison legacy. He was an advocate of DC at 120V. We all know how clumsy that was with generator stations every few blocks. But several areas, like NYC installed them. Then Westinghouse came along with the better AC system but to keep things somewhat compatible the voltage was kept at 120V. So we were stuck with it.

Prior to WW2 it wasn't unusual to see houses wired for 120V only. One hot and a neutral from the pole to the house. I once saw an older house with beautifully done wiring with absolutely no ground in sight to the outlets. I've also seen knob and tube wiring. We did things first and perhaps not the best but it is what it is. Europe saw a better way.

There's a reason "All American 5" radios say for 120V DC or AC. Up until very recently places like lower Manhattan and I think San Francisco still supported DC for legacy elevator systems with DC motors.     

 

[Saskia]

I dropped out of the brutal Keto/ Low Carb and need to get back in. In preparation for that exam I was not allowed to eat anything containing fibre, no veggies, meat, whathaveyou. So some noodles and some eggmcmuffins plus hashbrowns killed off the Keto part. To my defense I must say that I was on 500 grams curd cheese/day for about a week while preparing for the exam.

Oh well, back into Keto flu. Probably starting tomorrow with a nice Pljeskavica and some 10 km or so exercise.
Today my brain is too mushy for that.

Difference in the mirror ? Most notably. Lost at least 2 sizes already. Or 15cm or more in tummy circumference ...
Want to get rid of all of it. So to support me in this I will pick up a windsurf board on the week end, along with a rather large sail (9.6 sqm) to get back on the water. I had to scratch the Pogo plans due to acute shortage of funds as I will most likely shell out 400k by the end of the month (and I don't have that kind of money).

But: this will give me 192 sqm on the ground floor plus 82 in the 1st, the 1st will become my work area so I'll have 3 rooms total for electronics / soldering lab, airbrush and pinball repair lab plus Home Office. The Arcades and pinballs will move to the what we call here Winter garden which will make a nice Saskia Cave (or home grown Arcade).
Arcades so far:
Elevator Action full size cab
Phoenix (Cocktail table)
Crazy Kong (Cocktail table)
Astro Attack (Cocktail table, needs full restoration), but I have an original Taito SpaceInvaders for that
PacMan (Arcade1up)
PacMan/DIgDug/Galaxians/Galaga (Arcade1up)
Space Invaders (Arcade1up)
Street Fighter (Arcade1up, would not have bought it if I had not gotten it for 120 Pesos ...)
Midway Legacy (Arcade1up)
(shit, that's a shitload of arcades ...)
Pinballs:
need to inventorize,
currently The Shadow (working), Starship Troopers (working), Fish Tales (working, in restauration), Judge Dredd (working), 2 Jokerz!, condition unknown, Twilight Zone (needs repair, will be next as soon as Fish Tales is finished), Earthshaker (will come after twilight zone, full rebuild), T2 (full rebuild), High Speed (full rebuild) and waiting for a functional road show to come in.

Oh shit, wait, that's 1.5 metric tonnes of pinball machines ...
 

Also planned: some photovoltaic stuff on top Saskia Cave to make it a Cave, keep the sun somewhat out and get juice for all that stuff.

[Cubdriver]

Like it or not our electrical wiring system is an Edison legacy. He was an advocate of DC at 120V. We all know how clumsy that was with generator stations every few blocks. But several areas, like NYC installed them. Then Westinghouse came along with the better AC system but to keep things somewhat compatible the voltage was kept at 120V. So we were stuck with it.

Prior to WW2 it wasn't unusual to see houses wired for 120V only. One hot and a neutral from the pole to the house. I once saw an older house with beautifully done wiring with absolutely no ground in sight to the outlets. I've also seen knob and tube wiring. We did things first and perhaps not the best but it is what it is. Europe saw a better way.

There's a reason "All American 5" radios say for 120V DC or AC. Up until very recently places like lower Manhattan and I think San Francisco still supported DC for legacy elevator systems with DC motors.   

My understanding is that Edison wanted to sell generators, so needing one every few blocks was a GOOD thing in his mind.  Interestingly, the VRCMCT here in Connecticut just got a piece of the cable that ran from Edison's Pearl Street Station in NYC; it went into one of the display cabinets on Saturday.  It came from a museum in DC that surplussed it.  If anyone's interested, I'll get a picture of it next weekend.  It's pretty grungy looking, and someone not knowing what it is would likely toss it in the dumpster thinking it was a piece of trash.

-Pat

[Specmaster]

This is America, everything is bigger over there. Houses too. 

I could be living in a Tesla Gigafactory and still only get permission for the smallest of rooms

McBryce.

This is America, everything is bigger over there. Houses too. 

Yep, judging by the YT videos of house fires over there, so are their fires, by the time the fire dept arrive at the scene, the fire is already massive because most houses are timber, and then once they arrive and manage to get the water going, they fluff about so much that the house is normally a goner anyway 

[Saskia]

That's how Red Adair arrived at the idea of dowsing fires with nukes ...

[Andrew_Debbie]

There's a reason "All American 5" radios say for 120V DC or AC. Up until very recently places like lower Manhattan and I think San Francisco still supported DC for legacy elevator systems with DC motors.   

The London Underground is  a 4 rail system with  +420VDC and -210VDC.    The newer tube stock has 3-phase traction but the supply is still DC.


There are uninsulated telephone wires running along the driver side of the tubes.    Shorting the wires will de-energise that section of track and turn on the lights in the tunnel.

The trains have radios, so the telephone system is not used much anymore (I think)

-----------------------------------------------

The underground used to have its own power stations.   At least one is still around but modernised, for backup power. 


http://content.tfl.gov.uk/research-guide-no-30-lots-road-and-greenwich-power-stations.pdf