Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[bd139]

Just rang Stewards of Reading again chasing the requested info, and was informed that it will now be Monday when they finally get back to me as the person dealing with my request has had to go out as he had an appointment he needed to keep and won't be back till Monday 

British small business at its best.

By the time you get anything back from half of them you can get what you want delivered next day new from Amazon for the same price.

My impression was always that many British shop owners actively hate their customers.

For example, I was once "busting for a pee" in a miserably cold, windy, provincial English city.
Looked around, no public "dunnies", so I dived into a Pub, intending to buy a beer, go for a pee, then return to the bar, & drink my beer.

On entering the place, it was chockful, so I went to "do my business" then back into the bar.
Still hordes of customers, clamouring for drinks.

I thought "I haven't got 30 minutes to wait, as I'll miss my train!" so, not without misgivings, I left.
The bloody Publican chased me down the street yelling imprecations!

In no other country, would someone neglect a whole bar full of patrons to chase someone for having a "free pee!"

Depends where you are and who you are really.

There are a few pubs which are local pubs for local people and if you go in there you might get chopped up for pies for even asking to use the toilet.

Any rural pub with a distinct lack of cars outside of it should be avoided as a rule.

[Robert763]

I just dunno what the resistance is to getting decent accessories for scopes. 
While you might wear out a scope or grow outta its capabilities Differential, HV and current probes all have long lives and can be used for decades on any # of scopes we might own.

Precisely!

I get sick and tired of pointing out https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/isolation-transformer-for-scope/msg2259465/#msg2259465

Indeed.
One advantage of the THS720 and SOME of later Fluke handhelds is that both channels are isolated from each other. Thaid makes taking hot and isolated measurements even easier.
Need to make it clear that when talking aout differential pr.e are talking about high voltage ISOLATED differential probes, not small signal differental one. Obvious to us but others ma read this in the future
A decent isolated differential probe costs as much as a used 97 'scope.

[Robert763]

Oh, I understand you hate this scope, but point is he already has one and using it, so that's the cheapest option !

Didn't know about the horror stories on the TDS200, thanks for the info. Still like it, plenty of 100 times worse DSO's in my collection !

I don't hate 200's just know their serious limitations but Tek's later DSO forays were better yet a 1000 I was given with a failed backlight still can't be compared with a modern DSO nor could the TDS2102B I have that died from a corroded pin on an IC. You may think fanless scopes are the way to go but if they are top vented that can cause a whole other set of problems with dust contamination. My days of Tek stuff are long over as we've had 100x better reliability with the Chinese shit we sell. 

Just playing devils advocate here, but Siglent as a company have not been around as long as the Tek 'scopes you mention. THe SDS1000 sereies launched in 2008 compared to the TDS210 in 1997 so hard to make a comparision on the Siglent 'scopes long term reliability.
Not saying they are unrelaible, just we don't know.

[bd139]

Oh, I understand you hate this scope, but point is he already has one and using it, so that's the cheapest option !

Didn't know about the horror stories on the TDS200, thanks for the info. Still like it, plenty of 100 times worse DSO's in my collection !

I don't hate 200's just know their serious limitations but Tek's later DSO forays were better yet a 1000 I was given with a failed backlight still can't be compared with a modern DSO nor could the TDS2102B I have that died from a corroded pin on an IC. You may think fanless scopes are the way to go but if they are top vented that can cause a whole other set of problems with dust contamination. My days of Tek stuff are long over as we've had 100x better reliability with the Chinese shit we sell. 

Just playing devils advocate here, but Siglent as a company have not been around as long as the Tek 'scopes you mention. THe SDS1000 sereies launched in 2008 compared to the TDS210 in 1997 so hard to make a comparision on the Siglent 'scopes long term reliability.
Not saying they are unrelaible, just we don't know.

That’s a whole can of worms that point. Some points to ponder:

1. The TDS210’s on the market now are the exceptional outliers on the failure bell curve.
2. The Siglent stuff is considerably cheaper than anything Tek produce with similar features.
3. Siglent stuff has a warranty.

As always, take the price and the warranty period in months. The quotient is the monthly cost of the item. Stare at it and ask yourself if that’s going to burn or not. If it lasts longer than the warranty period, party time! This is a simple way to manage personal financial risk.

Sample calculation

TDS210 = £160 / 0 = whoa instant infinite risk
1202X-E = £360 / 36 = £10 a month.

I know who gets the business.

Thinking about long term isn’t really practical with modern electronics which has a design life and cost trade off. The advantage is that your scope doesn’t cost £10k to start with like a 475 would today.

[AVGresponding]

The whole idea of disposable electronics is anathema to me, I absolutely despise the profit-chasing that has led us here.

[bd139]

The whole idea of disposable electronics is anathema to me, I absolutely despise the profit-chasing that has led us here.

It’s not really profit chasing. Things got smaller, faster, no longer elementally lumped and considerably more complicated. That brings a whole new world of pain chasing down parts and doing reliable repairs to the point it’s not sensible to attempt to do it. Sure replace modules but that’s even becoming difficult with the level of integration these days.

The only things that really kill me are when they stop making spare parts for devices, shut service points down and abandon the device software that is full of holes. Android vendors I’m looking at you.

I prefer the idea they exposed in the expanse. Recycle everything back to atoms. Dead bodies, smartphones, you name it. Straight in the recycler.

Also to point out, only profit and war drive progress. I’d rather it was profit.

[Robert763]

My comment was that we cannot have enough data to say that Siglent scopes are "100x" more reliable than 90's small tektronix scopes, Not that old are better value than new or vice versa.

[BU508A]

The whole idea of disposable electronics is anathema to me, I absolutely despise the profit-chasing that has led us here.

It’s not really profit chasing. Things got smaller, faster, no longer elementally lumped and considerably more complicated. That brings a whole new world of pain chasing down parts and doing reliable repairs to the point it’s not sensible to attempt to do it. Sure replace modules but that’s even becoming difficult with the level of integration these days.

The only things that really kill me are when they stop making spare parts for devices, shut service points down and abandon the device software that is full of holes. Android vendors I’m looking at you.

I prefer the idea they exposed in the expanse. Recycle everything back to atoms. Dead bodies, smartphones, you name it. Straight in the recycler.

Also to point out, only profit and war drive progress. I’d rather it was profit.

Or one becomes a second Feedback Loop and creates a copy of a multilayer memory module for a Fluke 199C:

[bd139]

My comment was that we cannot have enough data to say that Siglent scopes are "100x" more reliable than 90's small tektronix scopes, Not that old are better value than new or vice versa.

Yeah but the point is that never mattered. Only the warranty did.

They were a hell of a lot of failures on the 54600 series scopes when they came out for example. HP were pretty good at sorting those out though.

[AVGresponding]

I prefer the idea they exposed in the expanse. Recycle everything back to atoms. Dead bodies, smartphones, you name it. Straight in the recycler.

Also to point out, only profit and war drive progress. I’d rather it was profit.

Well until we have Star Trek replicators, or whatever spin The Expanse put on them (not watched it yet), repairability is paramount on my personal checklist.

And that tired old trope about profit and war is just not true. Newton wasn't thinking about war or profit when he wrote Principia, nor was Darwin when he wrote On the Origin of Species etc etc.

I'd argue ALL the major breakthroughs in science are made by people that are not thinking about war or profit; they are thinking about "what if?". The turds that come after them and use their discoveries to become rich and/or murder lots of people are the ones that write stupid things like "war and profit drive progress".

[bd139]

The whole idea of disposable electronics is anathema to me, I absolutely despise the profit-chasing that has led us here.

It’s not really profit chasing. Things got smaller, faster, no longer elementally lumped and considerably more complicated. That brings a whole new world of pain chasing down parts and doing reliable repairs to the point it’s not sensible to attempt to do it. Sure replace modules but that’s even becoming difficult with the level of integration these days.

The only things that really kill me are when they stop making spare parts for devices, shut service points down and abandon the device software that is full of holes. Android vendors I’m looking at you.

I prefer the idea they exposed in the expanse. Recycle everything back to atoms. Dead bodies, smartphones, you name it. Straight in the recycler.

Also to point out, only profit and war drive progress. I’d rather it was profit.

Or one becomes a second Feedback Loop and creates a copy of a multilayer memory module for a Fluke 199C:

That’s a nice example.

Of course there are scenarios where it’s possible to replace some parts with newer things.

Curious Marc is a good one. He repaired an HP pulse generator by redesigning a new board to replace a failed hybrid.

[bd139]

I prefer the idea they exposed in the expanse. Recycle everything back to atoms. Dead bodies, smartphones, you name it. Straight in the recycler.

Also to point out, only profit and war drive progress. I’d rather it was profit.

Well until we have Star Trek replicators, or whatever spin The Expanse put on them (not watched it yet), repairability is paramount on my personal checklist.

And that tired old trope about profit and war is just not true. Newton wasn't thinking about war or profit when he wrote Principia, nor was Darwin when he wrote On the Origin of Species etc etc.

I'd argue ALL the major breakthroughs in science are made by people that are not thinking about war or profit; they are thinking about "what if". The turds that come after them and use their ideas to become rich and/or murder lots of people are the ones that write stupid things like "war and profit drive progress".

The point with recycling is we can do it ideologically and need to make manufacturers responsible. Rather than see it as waste it needs to be treated as unprocessed raw materials again. So ignoring the science fiction side of things which isn’t even discussed in the expanse, only the point of reusing and recycling everything and that all resources are precious.

I think you need look back at academic funding in the 1700s… Newton’s research was built on the spoils of war. Hell the degree I did was funded partially by evil biological weapon producers. The ideology that it isn’t is probably more Star Trek.

I’d love that but it’s not reality.

[Specmaster]

This is why this forum is so much fun and informative at the same time, who would have guessed that my quest for handheld scope would have generated so much response, who knew?

One thing for sure is that I will not be buying a new device, or an expensive one just to sit and gather dust, which is what my gear does most of its time. The only thing on my bench which gets daily use and for extended periods is the PC, and even that is getting old like its owner.

If money was not an issue then I'd love to go out and buy new models of everything, but when your only source of income is the state pension, you have to reduce your expectations considerably. I do have occupational pensions that I have not yet invoked because I was advised against doing so while I had some savings left, as the pension pot would be growing at a faster rate than my savings. That was of course pre Brexit and the pandemic, which I expect will have an impact. That being said, of course, those pensions will not be adding much to the state pension when I activate them.

It also seems that some of you guys may be of the impression I'm currently scope less, which is not true and my scopes are shown below, the interest in the Fluke 97 or similar was sparked by recent posts here and also some of Dave's videos and of course the everlasting draw that is TEAS, this is what we are here for right?

[nixiefreqq]

so the matter is settled.   spec is gonna' buy a fluke 97 for 100 of whatever you people call a unit of currency.

it will arrive and he will find that the electroluminescent back light is dead.  he will purchase a sheet from china, cut it to fit and replace the dead one.

this will satisfy his need for a low cost portable scope AND his compulsion to fix stuff.

later he will attempt to use banana test leads to measure voltage and will be annoyed to remember that feature only works thru the channel A bnc. 

he will be safe (because he will acquire the proper test lead and probe set that was designed for making isolated measurements and is designated for use on a scopemeter) and he will be a happy camper. 

end of story.

[bd139]

Controversy is alway fun 

Totally agree with Specmaster. Most of my points are academic and trading risk. Having been on student budget before which is considerably worse than the state pension, whatever you’ve got is the best tool, followed by whatever you can bodge from stuff lying around followed by whatever you can get for nothing. And you’ve got some fine tools there 

I traced out an old JVC amp with a 555 oscillator and a CE amp and LED inside a biro body as an AC signal tracer once. By luck I found a Telequipment S61 at a boot sale for £5 that just needed some knobs cleaning.  Learned more from that than anything.

We have to admit that we do things though not because of reason but of desire and there’s nothing wrong with that as long as no one gets hurt in the process 

[nixiefreqq]

i am a old old bastard who can often be amazed by the simplest thing.

just bought a new 11" lenovo chromebook to replace my old dead thinkpad chromebook.

plugged in the power on the left side usb-c because....because the power cord always goes on that side.......right?

but then the cord is always flopping around in front of me because my source is to my right.  but wait, there is another usb-c on the right side.

could that work too?  holy shit, it does!

damn.  these newfangled devices are just getting waaaay beyond my understanding.

[bd139]

Conversely that horrid Dell I had only had thunderbolt on the left (for the dock) and could only charge on the left  . It had one USB-C on the right that was basically useless.

YMMV with USB-C.

[tautech]

Controversy is alway fun 

By luck I found a Telequipment S61 at a boot sale for £5 that just needed some knobs cleaning.  Learned more from that than anything.

Likewise with the D83 I was given for a first scope and never would've guessed it would've sent me down this path.
However it's been a shit load of learning and fun and made a few bucks along the way. 

My comment was that we cannot have enough data to say that Siglent scopes are "100x" more reliable than 90's small tektronix scopes, Not that old are better value than new or vice versa.

My data suggests otherwise.

[Specmaster]

so the matter is settled.   spec is gonna' buy a fluke 97 for 100 of whatever you people call a unit of currency.

it will arrive and he will find that the electroluminescent back light is dead.  he will purchase a sheet from china, cut it to fit and replace the dead one.

this will satisfy his need for a low cost portable scope AND his compulsion to fix stuff.

later he will attempt to use banana test leads to measure voltage and will be annoyed to remember that feature only works thru the channel A bnc. 

he will be safe (because he will acquire the proper test lead and probe set that was designed for making isolated measurements and is designated for use on a scopemeter) and he will be a happy camper. 

end of story.

Not quite like that, I'm erring on the side of walking away from that Stewarts of Reading deal as it looks very dodgy to me, not only has the price been increased 66%, but I have no sight of the item before deciding to buy, unless I'm willing to make the drive, some 200 miles and 4 to 5 hours which might well end up fruitless, which I'm not about to do. Given the fact that the seller cannot even be more precise about what I'm going to be getting for my money, or even what the final price will be. It simply is not good enough to state £125, + VAT + P&P, they could have said that it will be £X, listing just what is included and added a caveat that the postage was only to mainland UK, outside that extra cost would be incurred.

[bd139]

Good decision to walk away IMO.

[nixiefreqq]

so the matter is settled.   spec is gonna' buy a fluke 97 for 100 of whatever you people call a unit of currency.

it will arrive and he will find that the electroluminescent back light is dead.  he will purchase a sheet from china, cut it to fit and replace the dead one.

this will satisfy his need for a low cost portable scope AND his compulsion to fix stuff.

later he will attempt to use banana test leads to measure voltage and will be annoyed to remember that feature only works thru the channel A bnc. 

he will be safe (because he will acquire the proper test lead and probe set that was designed for making isolated measurements and is designated for use on a scopemeter) and he will be a happy camper. 

end of story.

Not quite like that, I'm erring on the side of walking away from that Stewarts of Reading deal as it looks very dodgy to me, not only has the price been increased 66%, but I have no sight of the item before deciding to buy, unless I'm willing to make the drive, some 200 miles and 4 to 5 hours which might well end up fruitless, which I'm not about to do. Given the fact that the seller cannot even be more precise about what I'm going to be getting for my money, or even what the final price will be. It simply is not good enough to state £125, + VAT + P&P, they could have said that it will be £X, listing just what is included and added a caveat that the postage was only to mainland UK, outside that extra cost would be incurred.

ok.  would be a different story if the guy was across town and you could walk in and offer him $75 or an ass kicking.

(my keyboard only has a $ key.  hmmmmmm.   do your keyboards come with that funny L key?  of course now someone will tell me to do a "shift-control-backspace-$" and it will respond with a funny L)

[bd139]

We have all three important currencies, invariably in different places depending on the platform which is slightly irritating.

[nixiefreqq]

wow.  that is almost as confusing as when you guys talk money on the telly.

between pounds and quids and "p" we can never figure out if james herriot is being cheated or getting a good deal.

[bd139]

Well considering he's buying anything here, he's getting cheated 

[nixiefreqq]

and what the hell is a schilling?  or a crown?  or a half crown?  do you have a key for those?

edit (maybe it is time for me to stop watching old sherlock holmes movies with basil raithbone?)