Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[Cubdriver]

And now that we're on a new page...





Some boat anchor-y TE goodness to distract us at least briefly from the cooling system wars.   

-Pat

[mnementh]

Do you think this might benefit with water cooling? Or it is as Bd sez just dick jewelry?     

That’s dick cancer that one 

Just be glad he didn't whip out that pic of the 80-year-old madam... *shudder*

mnem
CAUTION: RUDE, CRUDE, IGNORANT & SOCIALLY UNACCEPTABLE. Just like that pic. DEF NSFW.

[xrunner]

Nice TEA shot.

And now that we're on a new page...

And yea, you learned my trick for posting TEA here these days. 

[25 CPS]

Both input channels work but the triggering doesn’t and both traces vanish whenever the trigger level knob is moved off the far clockwise range of travel.  I don’t know if that’s due to user error on my part, not enough time running to get tubes and Nuvistors fully woken up after sitting idle for an indeterminate amount of time, or if the trigger section actually does have problems.  Unfortunately, I didn’t have as much time to play with it as I’d have liked before leaving for work so it didn’t get a long run-in time to start coming alive with and I wanted to get some other test equipment spun up while I was down there.

The trigger on the older 500 series before the use of tunnel diodes is a little funky and takes getting use to. Set the trigger control to "Automatic" then slowly adjust the stability pot until the trace triggers and locks. In most cases you can leave it that way and the scope should trigger automatically. Only in rare cases will you have to adjust the trigger control.

Thanks - I'll give that a try as soon as I get some more test equipment time.  This is going to be a learning experience for me since I've never used a vintage Tek before, and I've suddenly gone from having zero to four of them in the last two weeks.  Now I need to figure out a more permanent storage solution for them which means another basement re-org is coming soon.

[Cerebus]

Modern copper based or tubed aluminium heatsinks manage that really well also they do however respond faster to load as they have lower thermal inertia over liquid systems.

So with lower thermal inertia they get hot faster, right? And you want your CPU to get hot faster, yes? I think you need to take a step back, think about what is going on and think your arguments through before making them. At the moment you're making a right pig's ear of making your case.

I agree with your fundamental case that for typical computers, in typical circumstances, air cooling is all that is needed and liquid cooling is just introducing further complexity and failure points. I disagree with your contention that air cooling is fundamentally better than liquid cooling, in any well designed system liquid cooling will stand a better chance of keeping chip temperatures low - "because thermodynamics" it's more effective (but not efficient, those liquid pumps need additional joules). There's a reason that all your motor vehicles use liquid cooling, and it isn't because the motor engineers are liquid cooling fanboys who want bragging rights (if they did they would also fit LED illumination inside the engine compartment). As a man who ran several air-cooled motorcycles back in the day I can speak to the drawbacks and again there's a reason that even piddling 125cc bikes use water cooling nowadays.

[mnementh]

I keep one of these in the garage with a piece of old countertop across it for a workbench; I used to use it for servicing projection TVs.

Yes, I'm talking aboot the bike hoist; the bike is just eye candy for Cerebus. 

mnem
 

[Cubdriver]

Either I'm sitting on a gold mine, or someone is delusional.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/324594900270?mkevt=1&mkpid=0&emsid=e11021.m43.l3160&mkcid=7&ch=osgood&euid=cbfefef84f3744fba70cc228db0ebb65&bu=43212832903&ut=RU&exe=98458&ext=232176&logid=nqt%3DAAAAAQAAAAIAAgAAAAAAAACAAAEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAwAABAAAAAAAAAAAACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIAAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQA**%26nqc%3DAAAAAQAAAAIAAgAAAAAAAACAAAEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAwAABAAAAAAAAAAAACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIAAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQA**%26mdbreftime%3D1619706831053%26es%3D0%26ec%3D1&osub=-1%7E1&crd=20210429074845&segname=11021&sojTags=ch%3Dch%2Cbu%3Dbu%2Cut%3Dut%2Cnqt%3Dnqt%2Cnqc%3Dnqc%2Cmdbreftime%3Dmdbreftime%2Ces%3Des%2Cec%3Dec%2Cexe%3Dexe%2Cext%3Dext%2Cexe%3Dexe%2Cext%3Dext%2Cosub%3Dosub%2Ccrd%3Dcrd%2Csegname%3Dsegname%2Cchnl%3Dmkcid

I lean towards the latter.

-Pat

[Specmaster]

To be really pedantic, ALL of them are ultimately air cooled.  The only question is whether the heat goes from the CPU directly through a piece of metal to reach that air, or if it hitches a ride on some liquid along the way between two pieces of metal, one at each end of its journey.   

-Pat

Thank you, and I did say that air is used in both system as the final means of cooling, but one of them actually dumps the warm air back in the case and then relies on another fan to pull that air out of the case, which is way less efficient than having a rad mounted at the very edge of the case and then blow cool air through the rad to so the warm air is then dumped outside of the case.

[25 CPS]

And now that we're on a new page...





Some boat anchor-y TE goodness to distract us at least briefly from the cooling system wars.   

-Pat

Very nice!  The 3582A's another Hewlett Packard spectrum analyzer that's popular with audio guys.

You mentioned not picking up much audio gear once you got into test equipment a few pages back when we were talking about the 3562As, right?  It's been more or less the same for me.  I haven't picked up much audio equipment recently either although I did get a Dyanaco ST-120 / PAT-4 pair and a pair of floor standing B & W speakers back in February.  All my tube stuff is from 15+ years ago before prices became totally out of hand.  Anything with a tube in it sells for big money now and the pandemic's only jacked the price of anything to do with home entertainment up even more to the point that black plastic junk that'd be a garage sale passby now commands real money.

I suspect the next spectrum analyzer that's going to get posted is when we hit page 3585.  Those ones seem to be very popular as well.

[mnementh]

Modern copper based or tubed aluminium heatsinks manage that really well also they do however respond faster to load as they have lower thermal inertia over liquid systems.

So with lower thermal inertia they get hot faster, right? And you want your CPU to get hot faster, yes? I think you need to take a step back, think about what is going on and think your arguments through before making them. At the moment you're making a right pig's ear of making your case.

I agree with your fundamental case that for typical computers, in typical circumstances, air cooling is all that is needed and liquid cooling is just introducing further complexity and failure points. I disagree with your contention that air cooling is fundamentally better than liquid cooling, in any well designed system liquid cooling will stand a better chance of keeping chip temperatures low - "because thermodynamics" it's more effective (but not efficient, those liquid pumps need additional joules). There's a reason that all your motor vehicles use liquid cooling, and it isn't because the motor engineers are liquid cooling fanboys who want bragging rights (if they did they would also fit LED illumination inside the engine compartment). As a man who ran several air-cooled motorcycles back in the day I can speak to the drawbacks and again there's a reason that even piddling 125cc bikes use water cooling nowadays.

Yup... this should be the *mic drop* moment for this discussion, but we all know it won't be... 

mnem
*mental note to self: Next time you feel the urge to "share" on the internet... resist.*

[AVGresponding]

Come to think of it, there's something you need to add to your collection since you've got that Mac Pro.  How about a Power PC G5 dual processor machine 2.5, 2.7 GHz or the quad core 2.5 GHz machine?  That'd get you Apple liquid CPU cooling to play around with.

Those liquid cooled G5’s are a reference to why you don’t want a liquid cooled computer. Leaky as hell.

Yes, well, that's because it's Apple, and not AVG   

This is the UK, all my quoted prices are inclusive of taxes and shipping.

The radiator is 80 x 80 mm, why do you assume I am incapable of telling the difference between that and a 120 x 120 mm one? The material is copper, not aluminium.

I don't need to take the block apart. If I had flow issues, it would be apparent. I say again, the breakdown rate when not exposed to high temperatures is so slow as to be unimportant. By the time it is an issue in my system, I'll be at the point of building a new one anyway. The material here is also copper.

Okay, fine. You've got the magical unicorn liquid cooler that doesn't ever need any maintenance; I wish you both a long and happy life together. I've had enough of this.

Cheers!

mnem
 

Dude, I don't know if my writing style is too opaque, or you're just not reading my posts carefully enough.

I have never said my liquid cooling system needs no maintenance, ever. I said I looked at the header tank the other day and realised I'll have to top it up in a few more years. I estimate a loss of some 50ml, presumably through evaporation, given there are no discernable leaks. The remaining coolant in the header tank is I'd guess around 200ml, with at a guess another 200ml or so in the rest of the system.

If I had any of the coolant left that I used, I would top it up now. Since I don't, and I'm not foolish enough to mix types, I'll leave it. It will likely last until I build a new PC in the next 2 years or so.

If there was an issue with clogging, anywhere in the system, it would be thrashing the fan, since that is run on the CPU's PWM drive.


My system runs a fairly consistent ∆_T of 4 to 5 degrees science at low load, up to 10 or 12 at high loads (temperatures measured at the header tank and the top of the radiator), with the header tank (cold side of the system) having a similar or slightly higher ∆_T relative to ambient.


I'll see if I can borrow a sound level meter (my colleague that I foisted off the fire alarm testing on to has a calibrated one) to see how noisy it is, though someone will have to measure their air cooled system as I'm not buggering about swapping mine out for one.


Here's a pic and link to an 80mm rad, just to prove they do exist... sadly with the price of copper nearly doubling over the last year or so, they're aluminimum now.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/402422166589

[mnementh]

Nope. Not gonna get sucked back into that discussion. I'll just let you find out aboot the jelly boogers for yourself.

Cheers!

mnem
 

[Cerebus]

Also those copper tubes are heatpipes, much higher conductivity than solid copper in their operating temperature range.

If you get your hands on a length of naked heat pipe try a little experiment. Get yourself a cup of hot water (60ºC maximum), take the heat pipe by one end with your fingers and dip the other into the hot water. The instant change from finger temperature to 'HOT!' at the end of the heat pipe jars with all your experience of dipping metal spoons into hot liquids (unless you were "born with a silver spoon in your mouth" and are used to stirring your tea with a silver sugar spoon - the effect is similar but not as striking as a heat pipe).

Heat pipes are damned clever, they basically put all the heat transfer physics of a refrigeration system into a small bit of tubing with no moving parts.

[Robert763]

I'm dropping the PC cooling topic now. On other cooling issues I've worked with air cooling balance on a flat 6 engine in a new aircraft design (long before CFD was available) was probably the most difficult. The active liquid cooling system that we had to add a heater to beuase the cuatomer used the maximum "nameplate" mains input current to calculate grossly over estimate the heat load was easy by comparison

[mnementh]

Also those copper tubes are heatpipes, much higher conductivity than solid copper in their operating temperature range.

If you get your hands on a length of naked heat pipe try a little experiment. Get yourself a cup of hot water (60ºC maximum), take the heat pipe by one end with your fingers and dip the other into the hot water. The instant change from finger temperature to 'HOT!' at the end of the heat pipe jars with all your experience of dipping metal spoons into hot liquids (unless you were "born with a silver spoon in your mouth" and are used to stirring your tea with a silver sugar spoon - the effect is similar but not as striking as a heat pipe).

Heat pipes are damned clever, they basically put all the heat transfer physics of a refrigeration system into a small bit of tubing with no moving parts.

This is true... however, the total surface area of the actual radiator is exponentially greater with a common household liquid-cooled rad due to the nature of the fins between the cores vs the flat stamped aluminum of these coolers.

You and I are probably familiar with the engineering involved; not sure all the people who suggest that these air coolers can move as much heat under extreme duress are actually aware of just what an engineering marvel the modern automotive-type radiator really is.

Just because a technology has been around for a century does not mean it is not still an amazing bit of engineering.

mnem

[Cubdriver]

Very nice!  The 3582A's another Hewlett Packard spectrum analyzer that's popular with audio guys.

You mentioned not picking up much audio gear once you got into test equipment a few pages back when we were talking about the 3562As, right?  It's been more or less the same for me.  I haven't picked up much audio equipment recently either although I did get a Dyanaco ST-120 / PAT-4 pair and a pair of floor standing B & W speakers back in February.  All my tube stuff is from 15+ years ago before prices became totally out of hand.  Anything with a tube in it sells for big money now and the pandemic's only jacked the price of anything to do with home entertainment up even more to the point that black plastic junk that'd be a garage sale passby now commands real money.

I suspect the next spectrum analyzer that's going to get posted is when we hit page 3585.  Those ones seem to be very popular as well.

Yeah, I had great plans for playing around and scratch building tube stuff - got tube amp design/building books by Morgan Jones and Bruce Rozenblitt, and more recently Igor Popovich's books...  But along the way foolishly bought that damned 5245L, and years later here we are...   

Hell, I have a pair of VTA's M125 kits partially built and sitting on the shelf, with two quads of KT-120s waiting to come to life.  Wanted to powder coat the chassis before assembly, and needed a bigger curing oven.  Finally got the oven, but in the meantime Lab Cat had knocked one of the previously powder coated transformers off the top rack shelf (where I foolishly thought it was safe, being heavy AND in the middle of the shelf), denting BOTH end bells which means I need to strip and redo it, and I just haven't gotten to it.  Some one of these years...

Board assembly time lapse:
https://photos.smugmug.com/Electronics/M-125s/i-LP53BtP/1/9a0a50e6/L/M-125%20driver%20boards-L.jpg







Powder coat curing video:
https://photos.smugmug.com/Electronics/M-125s/i-3CF8fDG/0/6a70bc49/L/MVI_8157-L.jpg

As for the next TEA hit on the page, yeah, the HP 3585 seems a likely candidate.  That won't be from me, though - don't have one of those.   
(And at the rate this thread is progressing, it will be posted very soon!!)

-Pat

[Specmaster]

@AVGresponding, looking at the prices on the link you gave, it would seem that the cost of parts to build your own liquid cooling system have crashed now. So the next time I rebuild my PC, I think I'll retain the case as it is good one and has all the space and provisions to whatever you want with it, that I might actually build one myself and use transparent piping for it. As you said, if there is any disturbance to flow, with the transparency of the system, you will be able to see that reflected in the flow through the pipe work and also because the pumps and fan controllers are driven via the PWM header for the CPU, you will of course notice the increased fan noise as they increase RPM to try and lower the CPU core temperature.

As to the G5 and the leakage, all I can say to that is, I have been using liquid cooling now for over 10 years and and I have never had any leakage. My middle son is using my old PC which is running a AMD Phenom and liquid cooling, runs nice and quietly, while my youngest son is using my older PC, again a AMD Phenom but is air cooled with a stonking great CPU cooler and he is a gamer and I can honestly say that on warm days you can literally hear his PC as the fans are tearing their guts out trying to cool the CPU. Let the PC idle for a few minutes and you can  hear the fans slow down and hence reduce the sound level.

[Specmaster]

On another level, does anyone know how many radiators a Bugatti Veyron uses? .... No fewer than 10 of them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugatti_Veyron.

[mnementh]

Anyway this is my day job so I'm done now as it's 17:30

My day job today involved explaining BGP path selection algorithm to a manager. While sounding professional. 

<snip>

Here, these visual aids should help. Or melt his pee-weeny little brain.   

mnem
Honestly, a net win either way.

Actually no. I like the people I work with. Even some of the management. Or I would not be there.

mnem
No, seriously... good for you. I've had that only a few rare times in my life... I hope you never have to leave. 

[Cubdriver]

On another level, does anyone know how many radiators a Bugatti Veyron uses? .... No fewer than 10 of them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugatti_Veyron.

Amazing engineering and mind blowingly insane performance and ability...  But personally I still think they're butt-ugly.  YMMV.

-Pat

[bd139]

Also quite expensive and less functional than my POS 0.99 litre Citroen tuk tuk.

[mnementh]

-Pat

oooh, Pat... that color is positively lascivious. I'd love to see that project completed. 

Also, damn you; in the back of my mind, I'm already designing color-coordinated 3DP stepped washers for under the heads of nuts & bolts to protect all that delicious candy...

mnem
 

[Specmaster]

Changing topic quickly, but still off topic.

I have just given Virgin Media the heave-ho with regard to TV programme provider to the specmaster household. I have had a aerial installed and will be using freeview in the future and saving around £80 a month. That being said, with their Tivo boxes you can effectively pause live TV if needed to answer the phone etc and them continue watching from the point you paused the program.

So now I need to source a similar box to do the same and record programs to a hard drive, does anyone have any experience of these PVR's and could recommend one that does not cost the Earth and whole leg and an arm. Looking for one that will record at least 2 programs at the same time, while watching a third and is also capable of handing at least HD if not 4K?

[mnementh]

On another level, does anyone know how many radiators a Bugatti Veyron uses? .... No fewer than 10 of them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugatti_Veyron.

Amazing engineering and mind blowingly insane performance and ability...  But personally I still think they're butt-ugly.  YMMV.

-Pat

It's not you... the damned thing really does look like the misbegotten offspring of a drunken 3-way between a Corvette, a Audi tt, and a Edsel. 

mnem

[factory]

Oooh!

I do like those blue CRTs!     
Nice one!

Never seen one in real life. Now I'm envious.

But I really don't like bright blue LEDs

Hate bright blue & cold white LEDs here too, especially those retina-burners fitted to vehicles. 

David