Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[med6753]

Both input channels work but the triggering doesn’t and both traces vanish whenever the trigger level knob is moved off the far clockwise range of travel.  I don’t know if that’s due to user error on my part, not enough time running to get tubes and Nuvistors fully woken up after sitting idle for an indeterminate amount of time, or if the trigger section actually does have problems.  Unfortunately, I didn’t have as much time to play with it as I’d have liked before leaving for work so it didn’t get a long run-in time to start coming alive with and I wanted to get some other test equipment spun up while I was down there.

The trigger on the older 500 series before the use of tunnel diodes is a little funky and takes getting use to. Set the trigger control to "Automatic" then slowly adjust the stability pot until the trace triggers and locks. In most cases you can leave it that way and the scope should trigger automatically. Only in rare cases will you have to adjust the trigger control.   

[mnementh]

On The Bench This Morning:

   AiO CPU Cooler Periodic Maintenance

Y'all may have noticed the dwagon hasn't been around stirring sh...tuff up this morning... I've been a little busy.

Since I have the CPU out of my PC anyways, I figured now was a good time to do periodic maintenance on the cooler in my Gaming/VR machine

This kind of nonsense is why I built my own.

It's been running for quite a while now, and since I use auto coolant, corrosion isn't an issue. Evaporation is glacially slow, I looked at the header tank the other day and it looks like I may need to top it up in a few more years.

It was also much cheaper.

Every word of this is just... wrong.

Auto coolant is not proof against corrosion; where in the world did you get that idea...? This cooler uses common household ethylene glycol automotive coolant, with very little dilution.

The jelly boogers are a byproduct of this kind of coolant, and they happen in any motor vehicle, any liquid-cooled device that uses it. Your cooler will need exactly this kind of periodic service as well, or the cooling block and several other places in the system will clog up. If you use the pink/orange OAT coolant, it is even worse for making those jelly boogers.

I've been doing liquid-cooling of PCs for decades... going back to the original Pentiums and Athlons, so I know exactly how much it costs to DIY this stuff, even if you start with a junkyard heater core for a rad. I highly doubt you built your own for "much less" than $60. 

Cheers,

mnem
*beginning to think that "sharing" wasn't such a good idea...*   

Please re-read what I actually said.

I said corrosion is not an issue, and it isn't, and it won't be, for the life of this system. I did not say it was "corrosion proof".
Why?
Because this is a PC cooler, and not a car. The environment in which it operates is completely different.
The temperatures and pressures are considerably lower than in a car, and it is those conditions which are the primary cause of coolant degradation.

As for cost, I used a £15 pump with integrated header tank, a £7.99 80x80 radiator, icr the cost of the CPU block, but it was probably around £10, the food grade silicone tubing was £7 for 2 metres iirc. I don't know what the cost of the coolant would be; it's too small an amount to worry about (if you already have some due to car ownership etc).

The only problems I have had, are when I first filled it, I spilled some coolant because I wasn't expecting the system to fill as quickly as it did, and the sensors for the cheap eBay digital thermometers sometimes fall off since I only stuck them on with insulation tape.

The only maintenance it has needed so far has been to have the radiator vacced out when it gets choked with fluff. That's in a period of 8 years or so.

I don't care how long you've been building liquid cooled PCs, this is how I built mine, the cost and reliability are as stated, and the only input to the design that wasn't mine was to run the pump at full speed and only run the radiator fan on PWM. Most of the time it is so quiet as to be inaudible.

Okay, okay... I guess this is going to boil down to semantics. First off... your cost was £40, so approx US$58 before taxes and shipping; definitely not "much cheaper". I'm going to assume for the sake of argument here you meant a 120x120 radiator (mine are 120x240, both of 'em), as I don't believe anybody even makes a 80x80 radiator.    That might just about cool a mouse-sized go-kart. 

Next, your system and mine use the same coolant, the same kind of aluminum rad, and (unless you bought the absolute shit-cheapest one you could find) the same kind of micro-groove copper heat-sink in the CPU block as my cooler. The only functional difference is whether the pump is integral in the same housing, which makes precisely zero difference here.

Bottom line is if you use any kind of ethylene glycol coolant, those jelly boogers are going to happen sooner or later. Anyone who habitually works with the stuff knows this, as does pretty much anyone who habitually liquid-cools PCs.

Have you actually taken your CPU block apart and looked inside?

mnem
 

[tggzzz]

Oooh!

I do like those blue CRTs!     
Nice one!

That's one of the reasons I keep my 485 on my desk

[mnementh]

Not over here. (Reconsiders... well, not in the US. I really don't know aboot Canada, as we have a single joint account my wife manages... )

You want "free", you'd better be willing to keep several hundred to $1000 balance at all times, and/or some combination of that with deposits to an associated savings account with heavy restrictions, and/or a debit card with at least 10 or so transactions/month. No, online shopping and deposits usually don't count.

mnem
 

You can get "free" bank accounts very easily in Canada.  However, you first have to have a regular account to link with. 
The free accounts do not provide all the same services as a regular account, but work fine for online transactions, which is what we are talking about in the realm of PP and FleaBay.
It does provide a layer of separation, but as noted is not foolproof.

In Canada, the most common offerings are from Tangerine (formerly ING until Scotia bought them out...).

EDIT:
Look out for the service fees for anything that bounces.  It costs for a bit of protection...

Cheques are still very much a going thing here.  The electronic systems used in Canada have no way of dealing with a transaction that requires two authorizations.  The only way to do that here is a cheque with two separate signatures.

Yeah, then it's not a "free account"; it's more like a secured debit card. They can charge-back to your "real" account for fees, and they can use right of set-off against the associated account to recover anything that bounces.

Trust me; if they couldn't touch the money in your "real" bank account, they wouldn't expect to associate theirs with it. Just more ass-ache than it's worth.

mnem
 

[mnementh]

Anyway this is my day job so I'm done now as it's 17:30

My day job today involved explaining BGP path selection algorithm to a manager. While sounding professional. 

       
http://goats.com/comic/2007/11/13/november-13-2007/

Here, these visual aids should help. Or melt his pee-weeny little brain.   

mnem
Honestly, a net win either way.

[Brumby]

My back neighbor has been digging that hole for 3 days now. He digs for a while. Then stops. Then comes back and digs some more. I've never met him but I've been told he's a little weird. Luckily there's no underground utilities like gas, water, or electric which would certainly liven up his day. 

Hmm, maybe he's a doomsday prepper and he's build himself a bunker?

That was my first thought the instant I saw this!

[vk6zgo]

And because I'm completely  sick, I'm now starting with R2R

Ever since I was a wee lad I always wanted a reel to reel deck - solenoid action for the dream fulfilled.  Some years ago I came upon an AKAI GX620 for a sum I was happy to spend which seemed operational except for once channel dead on playback.  I suspected the fix would be electronic and later I discovered there were "overhaul kits" containing semis and caps as items of the era were prone to needing such action.

So ... one day ... I will get around to giving it the attention it deserves and I will have it proudly displayed with a couple of 10" reels - and then show it can play music (to the probable disbelief of the younger generation).


It is, however, missing one of the thumbscrews that retains the head cover panel.  Other than that, it is rather good cosmetically.

Just in case you would like an Aussie made option for the queue eBay auction: #203404028852 How long before I get told to go stand in the far queue .....

They used to be a "Beyer", till Rola bought the company
Common as a standby programme source at PMG/TelecomAust sites run for the ABC.

[vk6zgo]

My back neighbor has been digging that hole for 3 days now. He digs for a while. Then stops. Then comes back and digs some more. I've never met him but I've been told he's a little weird. Luckily there's no underground utilities like gas, water, or electric which would certainly liven up his day. 

Sounds like my dog!

[vk6zgo]

No. But it did involve a lot of whisky, g-strings and a redhead

Well, at least there was a redhead!

[beanflying]

And because I'm completely  sick, I'm now starting with R2R

Ever since I was a wee lad I always wanted a reel to reel deck - solenoid action for the dream fulfilled.  Some years ago I came upon an AKAI GX620 for a sum I was happy to spend which seemed operational except for once channel dead on playback.  I suspected the fix would be electronic and later I discovered there were "overhaul kits" containing semis and caps as items of the era were prone to needing such action.

So ... one day ... I will get around to giving it the attention it deserves and I will have it proudly displayed with a couple of 10" reels - and then show it can play music (to the probable disbelief of the younger generation).


It is, however, missing one of the thumbscrews that retains the head cover panel.  Other than that, it is rather good cosmetically.

Just in case you would like an Aussie made option for the queue eBay auction: #203404028852 How long before I get told to go stand in the far queue .....

They used to be a "Beyer", till Rola bought the company
Common as a standby programme source at PMG/TelecomAust sites run for the ABC.

Way back in the mists of time a Student Radio station I was involved with was gifted one from a local AM Station (nearly 40 years ago). The upgrade to a Revox was just so much better but I have ZERO desire to go back to one or wind Cartridge's from huge spools of tape either. My 50 year old hearing is fine with Digital

[capt bullshot]

You beat me to it.  The 3580A was the other piece of test equipment I pulled out today since I knew the page number was coming up!  I really did a bad job setting up the front panel parameters for that picture.  I really should’ve expanded the LO feed through off to the left edge of the screen but oh well, like the 502A, casualty of limited playtime before having to tear out the door to go to work.

I made that photo about a week ago, when page 3577 was coming up
Still had to make two rather useless posts on pg. 3579 since it's been right after midnight here and I didn't want to wait anymore for page 3580 ...

[AVGresponding]

Not seen anyone using a credit union for a while!

Seemed a better place to leave my cash where it might underwrite some social good rather than in the sticky mitts of some morally bankrupt financial institution. UK Credit Union accounts enjoy the same £80k statutory deposit protection as other bank accounts and they're modernising, so come with debit cards, online banking and all the usual frills nowadays.

I’m not sure I like the idea myself. Having worked extensively with smaller financial organisations I’m almost certainly sure I’m against using companies with less staff than a clearing bank’s QA team with the same risk profile for me. As much as I hate it, the bigger the bastard, the more holes they’ve already fixed.

FSCS will cover you up to £85k but if you’ve got a few thousand people with a hosed credit union, expect not to see anything for 2-3 years. It’s not very straightforward exercising your rights. Better to avoid it first.

Edit: on the last point, that's the old prevention is better than cure idiom and that always applies to everything involving more than about 50 quid I find 

Edit 2: worth reviewing collapse of Northern Rock as example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Rock  ... they were an actual bank with a higher profile than credit unions with 75 physical branches.

I disagree; the fundamental philosophy of bank vs credit unions makes a huge difference.

Banks like to take risks with your money in order to generate dividends for their shareholders. Credit unions do not, and like building societies, their only shareholders are the savers.

[mansaxel]

Anyway this is my day job so I'm done now as it's 17:30

My day job today involved explaining BGP path selection algorithm to a manager. While sounding professional. 

<snip>

Here, these visual aids should help. Or melt his pee-weeny little brain.   

mnem
Honestly, a net win either way.

Actually no. I like the people I work with. Even some of the management. Or I would not be there.

(Edit: punctuation)

[AVGresponding]

On The Bench This Morning:

   AiO CPU Cooler Periodic Maintenance

Y'all may have noticed the dwagon hasn't been around stirring sh...tuff up this morning... I've been a little busy.

Since I have the CPU out of my PC anyways, I figured now was a good time to do periodic maintenance on the cooler in my Gaming/VR machine

This kind of nonsense is why I built my own.

It's been running for quite a while now, and since I use auto coolant, corrosion isn't an issue. Evaporation is glacially slow, I looked at the header tank the other day and it looks like I may need to top it up in a few more years.

It was also much cheaper.

Every word of this is just... wrong.

Auto coolant is not proof against corrosion; where in the world did you get that idea...? This cooler uses common household ethylene glycol automotive coolant, with very little dilution.

The jelly boogers are a byproduct of this kind of coolant, and they happen in any motor vehicle, any liquid-cooled device that uses it. Your cooler will need exactly this kind of periodic service as well, or the cooling block and several other places in the system will clog up. If you use the pink/orange OAT coolant, it is even worse for making those jelly boogers.

I've been doing liquid-cooling of PCs for decades... going back to the original Pentiums and Athlons, so I know exactly how much it costs to DIY this stuff, even if you start with a junkyard heater core for a rad. I highly doubt you built your own for "much less" than $60. 

Cheers,

mnem
*beginning to think that "sharing" wasn't such a good idea...*   

Please re-read what I actually said.

I said corrosion is not an issue, and it isn't, and it won't be, for the life of this system. I did not say it was "corrosion proof".
Why?
Because this is a PC cooler, and not a car. The environment in which it operates is completely different.
The temperatures and pressures are considerably lower than in a car, and it is those conditions which are the primary cause of coolant degradation.

As for cost, I used a £15 pump with integrated header tank, a £7.99 80x80 radiator, icr the cost of the CPU block, but it was probably around £10, the food grade silicone tubing was £7 for 2 metres iirc. I don't know what the cost of the coolant would be; it's too small an amount to worry about (if you already have some due to car ownership etc).

The only problems I have had, are when I first filled it, I spilled some coolant because I wasn't expecting the system to fill as quickly as it did, and the sensors for the cheap eBay digital thermometers sometimes fall off since I only stuck them on with insulation tape.

The only maintenance it has needed so far has been to have the radiator vacced out when it gets choked with fluff. That's in a period of 8 years or so.

I don't care how long you've been building liquid cooled PCs, this is how I built mine, the cost and reliability are as stated, and the only input to the design that wasn't mine was to run the pump at full speed and only run the radiator fan on PWM. Most of the time it is so quiet as to be inaudible.

Okay, okay... I guess this is going to boil down to semantics. First off... your cost was £40, so approx US$58 before taxes and shipping; definitely not "much cheaper". I'm going to assume for the sake of argument here you meant a 120x120 radiator (mine are 120x240, both of 'em), as I don't believe anybody even makes a 80x80 radiator.    That might just about cool a mouse-sized go-kart. 

Next, your system and mine use the same coolant, the same kind of aluminum rad, and (unless you bought the absolute shit-cheapest one you could find) the same kind of micro-groove copper heat-sink in the CPU block as my cooler. The only functional difference is whether the pump is integral in the same housing, which makes precisely zero difference here.

Bottom line is if you use any kind of ethylene glycol coolant, those jelly boogers are going to happen sooner or later. Anyone who habitually works with the stuff knows this, as does pretty much anyone who habitually liquid-cools PCs.

Have you actually taken your CPU block apart and looked inside?

mnem
 

This is the UK, all my quoted prices are inclusive of taxes and shipping.

The radiator is 80 x 80 mm, why do you assume I am incapable of telling the difference between that and a 120 x 120 mm one? The material is copper, not aluminium.

I don't need to take the block apart. If I had flow issues, it would be apparent. I say again, the breakdown rate when not exposed to high temperatures is so slow as to be unimportant. By the time it is an issue in my system, I'll be at the point of building a new one anyway. The material here is also copper.

[beanflying]

HEAVY SNIPPAGE

This is the UK, all my quoted prices are inclusive of taxes and shipping.

The radiator is 80 x 80 mm, why do you assume I am incapable of telling the difference between that and a 120 x 120 mm one? The material is copper, not aluminium.

I don't need to take the block apart. If I had flow issues, it would be apparent. I say again, the breakdown rate when not exposed to high temperatures is so slow as to be unimportant. By the time it is an issue in my system, I'll be at the point of building a new one anyway. The material here is also copper.

And yet here in the very varied Shack my slightly o/clocked 3700X runs perfectly well with way less fuss on the stock fan ..... The big issue is now and always will be if you want to dump 100W of heat and recirculate the cooling medium even via a radiator the fluid will eventually get to ambient temperature regardless unless you add additional refrigeration. Air cooling in a decent enclosure will be warmer to start with but its fluid will never exceed ambient unlike water so the net result is about NIL under heavy sustained workloads in warm/hot environments.

ergo Water Cooling for Intel Elements and nutjobs 

[BU508A]

I made that photo about a week ago, when page 3577 was coming up
Still had to make two rather useless posts on pg. 3579 since it's been right after midnight here and I didn't want to wait anymore for page 3580 ...

 
I've used a similar technique for page 2525 

[tautech]

I made that photo about a week ago, when page 3577 was coming up
Still had to make two rather useless posts on pg. 3579 since it's been right after midnight here and I didn't want to wait anymore for page 3580 ...

 
I've used a similar technique for page 2525 

Missed the boat for the couple of 3032's I have here and a long wait until 5054 and longer to 8654 

[capt bullshot]

I made that photo about a week ago, when page 3577 was coming up
Still had to make two rather useless posts on pg. 3579 since it's been right after midnight here and I didn't want to wait anymore for page 3580 ...

 
I've used a similar technique for page 2525 

Then someone came along and deleted a post, so your post got the last on pg. 2524 

[BU508A]

I made that photo about a week ago, when page 3577 was coming up
Still had to make two rather useless posts on pg. 3579 since it's been right after midnight here and I didn't want to wait anymore for page 3580 ...

 
I've used a similar technique for page 2525 

Then someone came along and deleted a post, so your post got the last on pg. 2524 

Jep. That's why I did a screenshot as a proof. 

[AVGresponding]

HEAVY SNIPPAGE

This is the UK, all my quoted prices are inclusive of taxes and shipping.

The radiator is 80 x 80 mm, why do you assume I am incapable of telling the difference between that and a 120 x 120 mm one? The material is copper, not aluminium.

I don't need to take the block apart. If I had flow issues, it would be apparent. I say again, the breakdown rate when not exposed to high temperatures is so slow as to be unimportant. By the time it is an issue in my system, I'll be at the point of building a new one anyway. The material here is also copper.

And yet here in the very varied Shack my slightly o/clocked 3700X runs perfectly well with way less fuss on the stock fan ..... The big issue is now and always will be if you want to dump 100W of heat and recirculate the cooling medium even via a radiator the fluid will eventually get to ambient temperature regardless unless you add additional refrigeration. Air cooling in a decent enclosure will be warmer to start with but its fluid will never exceed ambient unlike water so the net result is about NIL under heavy sustained workloads in warm/hot environments.

ergo Water Cooling for Intel Elements and nutjobs 

This is the UK, ambient is never more than 23 or so even if I'm feeling lazy. Normally it's around 20 degrees science.

My system definitely runs quieter than with plain air cooling, which is the reason I wanted liquid cooling.

Also it gave me an excuse to have two LED temperature readouts in the front panel... xD
 

[beanflying]

Urgent Member Re Education required  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/test-equipment-for-sale/msg3559544/#msg3559544

and VK5RC drop the OP a message maybe 

[xrunner]

Gulp ... 

Your best bet is to dismantle it all and recover the gold connectors and similar and sell on to a gold recycle specialist.

Yes, I know it is all interesting and useful stuff, but no one wants it, and after moving it around a couple of times to dig out what people want photos of and then never hear back will really piss you off ...

I'm not leaving my stuff for my family to toss in a dumpster. If I have to I'm giving it away to TEA members for safe keeping! But let's hold off a few years. 

[med6753]

Urgent Member Re Education required  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/test-equipment-for-sale/msg3559544/#msg3559544

and VK5RC drop the OP a message maybe 

See my passive/aggressive response. 

[Robert763]

HEAVY SNIPPAGE

This is the UK, all my quoted prices are inclusive of taxes and shipping.

The radiator is 80 x 80 mm, why do you assume I am incapable of telling the difference between that and a 120 x 120 mm one? The material is copper, not aluminium.

I don't need to take the block apart. If I had flow issues, it would be apparent. I say again, the breakdown rate when not exposed to high temperatures is so slow as to be unimportant. By the time it is an issue in my system, I'll be at the point of building a new one anyway. The material here is also copper.

And yet here in the very varied Shack my slightly o/clocked 3700X runs perfectly well with way less fuss on the stock fan ..... The big issue is now and always will be if you want to dump 100W of heat and recirculate the cooling medium even via a radiator the fluid will eventually get to ambient temperature regardless unless you add additional refrigeration. Air cooling in a decent enclosure will be warmer to start with but its fluid will never exceed ambient unlike water so the net result is about NIL under heavy sustained workloads in warm/hot environments.

ergo Water Cooling for Intel Elements and nutjobs 

Not really.
EVERY passive cooling system will ALWAYS be ABOVE ambient temperture. It it wasn't it would not transfer any heat away.  Water or water / gycol (or even straight glycol) is a much better heat transfer fluid than air.  The big advantages of liquid cooling is much better energy transfer for a given contact area and temperature difference and you can remove the heat out of the equipment case easily while taking up little space. This means you don't need the massive metal heat spreaders and/or heat pipes of an air ccooled CPU cooler and can reduce the volume of air (and contaminants) and air ducting in the case. 
Liquid cooling is more efficient, smaller and quieter if well designed. It will almost certainly provide lower CPU core temperatures (and case internal temperatures than an air cooling system of similar volume or power consumption.
 

[beanflying]

HEAVY SNIPPAGE

This is the UK, all my quoted prices are inclusive of taxes and shipping.

The radiator is 80 x 80 mm, why do you assume I am incapable of telling the difference between that and a 120 x 120 mm one? The material is copper, not aluminium.

I don't need to take the block apart. If I had flow issues, it would be apparent. I say again, the breakdown rate when not exposed to high temperatures is so slow as to be unimportant. By the time it is an issue in my system, I'll be at the point of building a new one anyway. The material here is also copper.

And yet here in the very varied Shack my slightly o/clocked 3700X runs perfectly well with way less fuss on the stock fan ..... The big issue is now and always will be if you want to dump 100W of heat and recirculate the cooling medium even via a radiator the fluid will eventually get to ambient temperature regardless unless you add additional refrigeration. Air cooling in a decent enclosure will be warmer to start with but its fluid will never exceed ambient unlike water so the net result is about NIL under heavy sustained workloads in warm/hot environments.

ergo Water Cooling for Intel Elements and nutjobs 

Not really.
EVERY passive cooling system will ALWAYS be ABOVE ambient temperture. It it wasn't it would not transfer any heat away.  Water or water / gycol (or even straight glycol) is a much better heat transfer fluid than air.  The big advantages of liquid cooling is much better energy transfer for a given contact area and temperature difference and you can remove the heat out of the equipment case easily while taking up little space. This means you don't need the massive metal heat spreaders and/or heat pipes of an air ccooled CPU cooler and can reduce the volume of air (and contaminants) and air ducting in the case. 
Liquid cooling is more efficient, smaller and quieter if well designed. It will almost certainly provide lower CPU core temperatures (and cse internl temperatures than an air cooling system of similar volume or power consumption.
 

The small reserve of fluid in a closed loop will always in time heat up before you get to the failure methods of the pump and core so I call  on water cooling for PC's KISS for the win. In a hot environment is is a LOSER.

And it is also most certainly NOT smaller!