Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[mnementh]

mnem

[mansaxel]

What's more worrying is the ALIS system on the F35's which turns them into a shitty IoT appliance with a jet engine on it.

slight marketing: The JAS39E phones home only if you tell it to. It will work if flown off a straightened road in the middle of nowhere, was designed to be maintained in a clearing in the forest, by conscripts with a year of training (including boot camp), under the supervision of a officer/engineer. And, it's cheap.

Currently ogling Vostok Radio Room mechanical watches.

[mnementh]

@mansaxel : I like the one with a Bat-Signal on the dial.


Troubleshooting this Cinema Display... I've traced out standby 3.3V, main 24V, 5V, & 3.3V power and the power control circuits back to the processor... and confirmed that the processor has all its +3.3V rails as should be, and that it has clock. There's a whole quarter of the board where the power rails appears to be dead (no voltage across any of the large electrolytics); but that is also where the FireWire and USB ports connect to the board.

So, to confirm whether those rails are actually down or just not getting power/turned on, I plug the monitor's DVI, USB & FireWire into the Mac again.

And now the fukkin' thing works.    I think it got mad at me for daring to plug it into my wife's *gasp* Lenovo.

mnem
FML...

[25 CPS]

@mansaxel : I like the one with a Bat-Signal on the dial.


Troubleshooting this Cinema Display... I've traced out standby 3.3V, main 24V, 5V, & 3.3V power and the power control circuits back to the processor... and confirmed that the processor has all its +3.3V rails as should be, and that it has clock. There's a whole quarter of the board where the power rails appears to be dead (no voltage across any of the large electrolytics); but that is also where the FireWire and USB ports connect to the board.

So, to confirm whether those rails are actually down or just not getting power/turned on, I plug the monitor's DVI, USB & FireWire into the Mac again.

And now the fukkin' thing works.    I think it got mad at me for daring to plug it into my wife's *gasp* Lenovo.

mnem
FML...

This is a 30 incher?  The 30 inch aluminum Cinema Display?

Going off memory and it's been quite a while now, it required a dual link DVI connection and it was only compatible with some of the video cards Apple offered for the PowerMac G5 back in the day.  If the Lenovo's DVI output wasn't a dual link or you were using a something -> DVI adapter that wasn't dual link, there's a good chance the 30 inch Cinema Display wouldn't come up when it was connected to the Lenovo.

[Specmaster]

Not trying in the slightest way to over old ground here, but I do believe that this man has been seriously misunderstood all the way down the line, and he is here publicly debunking some urban myths associated with him and other independent repair shops and also the right of repair movement.

I think it is the right thing to listen to his arguments and form your own opinion once you have listened. He even invites anyone to not take his word for everything, but put the manufacturers own service centres and authorised repair shops and 3rd party repair shops to the test by asking them the same questions, but make sure that you actually what the truth is before asking so that you will know when you're being lied to.

[mnementh]

@mansaxel : I like the one with a Bat-Signal on the dial.


Troubleshooting this Cinema Display... I've traced out standby 3.3V, main 24V, 5V, & 3.3V power and the power control circuits back to the processor... and confirmed that the processor has all its +3.3V rails as should be, and that it has clock. There's a whole quarter of the board where the power rails appears to be dead (no voltage across any of the large electrolytics); but that is also where the FireWire and USB ports connect to the board.

So, to confirm whether those rails are actually down or just not getting power/turned on, I plug the monitor's DVI, USB & FireWire into the Mac again.

And now the fukkin' thing works.    I think it got mad at me for daring to plug it into my wife's *gasp* Lenovo.

mnem
FML...

This is a 30 incher?  The 30 inch aluminum Cinema Display?

Going off memory and it's been quite a while now, it required a dual link DVI connection and it was only compatible with some of the video cards Apple offered for the PowerMac G5 back in the day.  If the Lenovo's DVI output wasn't a dual link or you were using a something -> DVI adapter that wasn't dual link, there's a good chance the 30 inch Cinema Display wouldn't come up when it was connected to the Lenovo.

Yup, 30 in Cinema display. Yup, dual-link. Yup, Lenovo dock didn't have dual-link. Yup, monitor worked on it, but only up to 720P resolution. It was after I took the monitor off the Lenovo and brought it back to the Mac (this was after I'd Macgyverfied the Nvidia GT8800 too) that it developed a attitudinal maladjustment. It also worked on my Asus Radeon 5870HD.

mnem
*currently nuking & paving with elementaryOS*

[mnementh]

It's elementary...

Utterly painless install... not only did it install pretty much automagically, it offered to repartition the Mint install, and configured grub so they could co-exist in harmony. AND it fixed whatever MacOS deliberately borked on the hard drive when, in a moment of stupidity, I tried to boot with the MacOS AND Mint drives in the machine at the same time. 

I think I'm gonna go give them a donation right now... my ballsack just gave a huge sigh of relief. 

mnem
ST:TNG time...

[Brumby]

I think it is the right thing to listen to his arguments and form your own opinion once you have listened. He even invites anyone to not take his word for everything, but put the manufacturers own service centres and authorised repair shops and 3rd party repair shops to the test by asking them the same questions, but make sure that you actually what the truth is before asking so that you will know when you're being lied to.

That is the way to get an independent assessment - but most people these days are just too lazy or time poor to make the effort.  They will sit back and let Youtube doo thu edukatin'.  While useful, this needs a discerning approach - but all too often it is just gulped down irrespective.

Then there is the produce of spin doctors.  The "Apple Authorized Service Provider" scheme being a classic of the art of obfuscation.  From what has been described, it is just a facade with the sole purpose of Apple being able to make a claim for the benefit of those who don't understand what it actually provides - or should I say, doesn't provide.


If there is one thing that I find unacceptable is where the product manufacturer instructs the chip manufacturer to NOT sell chips to anyone else.  If I have a product with a fault I have tracked down to a particular chip and I can't buy a $5 replacement because somebody "said so" and the only options (according to the manufacturer) are an expensive repair with them or buying a new product - then I find that predatory and only worthy of condemnation.

If my gorilla hands bust it up - then who gives a toss?  It was mine to do with as I please.  If, however, I can get that $5 chip and use my hot air station to effect a repair, then I'm happy.  But I - and pretty much everyone here - are not your "average" customer ... and for those people (which, I concede, will include us on occasions) the "independent repair guy" who has at least the basic equipment, skills and experience to be more successful, has a definite place. 

What peeves me, in addition to such restrictive practices, are the garbage arguments used by manufacturers and their lobbyists for the purpose of generating FUD on those who do not have the knowledge to see them as the garbage they are.

[Brumby]

It's elementary...

Utterly painless install... not only did it install pretty much automagically, it offered to repartition the Mint install, and configured grub so they could co-exist in harmony. AND it fixed whatever MacOS deliberately borked on the hard drive when, in a moment of stupidity, I tried to boot with the MacOS AND Mint drives in the machine at the same time. 

I think I'm gonna go give them a donation right now... my ballsack just gave a huge sigh of relief. 

mnem
ST:TNG time...

Congratulations.  I always did like the look of those G5 cases.  Apple do have a sense of style.

[SilverSolder]

I think it is the right thing to listen to his arguments and form your own opinion once you have listened. He even invites anyone to not take his word for everything, but put the manufacturers own service centres and authorised repair shops and 3rd party repair shops to the test by asking them the same questions, but make sure that you actually what the truth is before asking so that you will know when you're being lied to.

That is the way to get an independent assessment - but most people these days are just too lazy or time poor to make the effort.  They will sit back and let Youtube doo thu edukatin'.  While useful, this needs a discerning approach - but all too often it is just gulped down irrespective.

Then there is the produce of spin doctors.  The "Apple Authorized Service Provider" scheme being a classic of the art of obfuscation.  From what has been described, it is just a facade with the sole purpose of Apple being able to make a claim for the benefit of those who don't understand what it actually provides - or should I say, doesn't provide.


If there is one thing that I find unacceptable is where the product manufacturer instructs the chip manufacturer to NOT sell chips to anyone else.  If I have a product with a fault I have tracked down to a particular chip and I can't buy a $5 replacement because somebody "said so" and the only options (according to the manufacturer) are an expensive repair with them or buying a new product - then I find that predatory and only worthy of condemnation.

If my gorilla hands bust it up - then who gives a toss?  It was mine to do with as I please.  If, however, I can get that $5 chip and use my hot air station to effect a repair, then I'm happy.  But I - and pretty much everyone here - are not your "average" customer ... and for those people (which, I concede, will include us on occasions) the "independent repair guy" who has at least the basic equipment, skills and experience to be more successful, has a definite place. 

What peeves me, in addition to such restrictive practices, are the garbage arguments used by manufacturers and their lobbyists for the purpose of generating FUD on those who do not have the knowledge to see them as the garbage they are.

The principle they use is really quite simple -  choke off the supply of spare parts and force people to spend more money with them than otherwise would have been possible.  Use some of that money to buy off lawmakers, and bob's your uncle...

[tautech]

It's elementary...

Utterly painless install... not only did it install pretty much automagically, it offered to repartition the Mint install, and configured grub so they could co-exist in harmony. AND it fixed whatever MacOS deliberately borked on the hard drive when, in a moment of stupidity, I tried to boot with the MacOS AND Mint drives in the machine at the same time. 

I think I'm gonna go give them a donation right now... my ballsack just gave a huge sigh of relief. 

mnem
ST:TNG time...

And the root cause of your week long balls ache actually was ?

[beanflying]

Stubborn Pride is the root cause How many MIPS to the now permanently degraded brain cell is low by my reckoning

[mnementh]

Wanting to fix it so I could have a taste of the Mac Kool-Aid from back when they were still part of the Jobs Reality Distortion Bubble.

Love the guy or hate him, he had a knack for making the impossible happen. I'm old and wise enough now to appreciate what I missed while it was here. This was a rare opportunity to me, squandered by the short-sightedness of those who came after a man who changed the world in many fundamental ways.

But y'all know I'm not gonna give up; this is a multiple-avenues attack.

I'll be back. And I'll be on a Mac...

mnem
 

[mnementh]

Stubborn Pride is the root cause How many MIPS to the now permanently degraded brain cell is low by my reckoning

Speaking of degraded brain cells... Don't you have some single-malt you could be molesting right now...?

mnem
I'm not seeing where this is a bad thing...

[beanflying]

Mmm 3PM 34C much more a Beer or G&T afterneoon but I will be 'good' for another hour or two - maybe.

That and I am thinking of rebooting my little 3018 router and playing with the newest version of flatcam. Only soft  involved and a few Coffees.

Same rubbish 555 blinky project imported from Fusion 360.

[mnementh]

I think it is the right thing to listen to his arguments and form your own opinion once you have listened. He even invites anyone to not take his word for everything, but put the manufacturers own service centres and authorised repair shops and 3rd party repair shops to the test by asking them the same questions, but make sure that you actually what the truth is before asking so that you will know when you're being lied to.

That is the way to get an independent assessment - but most people these days are just too lazy or time poor to make the effort.  They will sit back and let Youtube doo thu edukatin'.  While useful, this needs a discerning approach - but all too often it is just gulped down irrespective.

Then there is the produce of spin doctors.  The "Apple Authorized Service Provider" scheme being a classic of the art of obfuscation.  From what has been described, it is just a facade with the sole purpose of Apple being able to make a claim for the benefit of those who don't understand what it actually provides - or should I say, doesn't provide.


If there is one thing that I find unacceptable is where the product manufacturer instructs the chip manufacturer to NOT sell chips to anyone else.  If I have a product with a fault I have tracked down to a particular chip and I can't buy a $5 replacement because somebody "said so" and the only options (according to the manufacturer) are an expensive repair with them or buying a new product - then I find that predatory and only worthy of condemnation.

If my gorilla hands bust it up - then who gives a toss?  It was mine to do with as I please.  If, however, I can get that $5 chip and use my hot air station to effect a repair, then I'm happy.  But I - and pretty much everyone here - are not your "average" customer ... and for those people (which, I concede, will include us on occasions) the "independent repair guy" who has at least the basic equipment, skills and experience to be more successful, has a definite place. 

What peeves me, in addition to such restrictive practices, are the garbage arguments used by manufacturers and their lobbyists for the purpose of generating FUD on those who do not have the knowledge to see them as the garbage they are.

The principle they use is really quite simple -  choke off the supply of spare parts and force people to spend more money with them than otherwise would have been possible.  Use some of that money to buy off lawmakers, and bob's your uncle...

Oh gewd laird...

So you think it's really reasonable to expect them to pay the R&D for custom silicon, then just let the contract manufacturer sell that part on the open market?

That's dumber than expecting them to order extras and keep track of them so they can be sold in single part lots when some dodo nukes the mb.

It is literally the antithesis of how a corporation thinks and works.

Much more important, IMO, will be to make the manufacturer pay up front the real world disposal cost of all this disposable tech.

That would be a much more important wake-up call. And if that happened, things like making shit repairable would suddenly actually hold some value for them, especially if it helped them amortize that disposal cost over a longer period.

Right to Repair as it's offered right now is a fucking sham that only kicks the problem down the road for the next generation to deal with. Just like recycling plastic had been for 4 decades.

mnem
*punt!*

[tautech]

Wanting to fix it so I could have a taste of the Mac Kool-Aid from back when they were still part of the Jobs Reality Distortion Bubble.

Yeah get that otherwise why would you have put yourself through a weeks worth of hurt. 

Love the guy or hate him, he had a knack for making the impossible happen. I'm old and wise enough now to appreciate what I missed while it was here. This was a rare opportunity to me, squandered by the short-sightedness of those who came after a man who changed the world in many fundamental ways.

But y'all know I'm not gonna give up; this is a multiple-avenues attack.

I'll be back. And I'll be on a Mac...

mnem
 

Now you're speaking in riddles and we're none the wiser about what stopped the Mac from working after you reflowed the GPU.
Or was it just this sort of repair process         

[vk6zgo]

Boats are bottomless money pits and coop ownership with the 'right' people or even short term leasing is potentially cheaper.

Two old sayings...

Boats are holes in the water that you pour money into.

If it floats, flies or f??ks, it is cheaper to rent than buy.

Yes, I can be unreconstructed at times.

Yeah, & a Swimming pool is a hole in the back yard you throw money into!

[Saskia]

I am still exploring the Pogo option. Hubby sez if I go ahead and buy one it will solely be my piece of cake. He only likes motorboats ... Those gas guzzlers if oceangoing are way beyond my monetary capabilities.
We'll see.

First get my sailing license ( in this country you need a license for taking a dump, unbelievable ...)

[AVGresponding]

I think it is the right thing to listen to his arguments and form your own opinion once you have listened. He even invites anyone to not take his word for everything, but put the manufacturers own service centres and authorised repair shops and 3rd party repair shops to the test by asking them the same questions, but make sure that you actually what the truth is before asking so that you will know when you're being lied to.

That is the way to get an independent assessment - but most people these days are just too lazy or time poor to make the effort.  They will sit back and let Youtube doo thu edukatin'.  While useful, this needs a discerning approach - but all too often it is just gulped down irrespective.

Then there is the produce of spin doctors.  The "Apple Authorized Service Provider" scheme being a classic of the art of obfuscation.  From what has been described, it is just a facade with the sole purpose of Apple being able to make a claim for the benefit of those who don't understand what it actually provides - or should I say, doesn't provide.


If there is one thing that I find unacceptable is where the product manufacturer instructs the chip manufacturer to NOT sell chips to anyone else.  If I have a product with a fault I have tracked down to a particular chip and I can't buy a $5 replacement because somebody "said so" and the only options (according to the manufacturer) are an expensive repair with them or buying a new product - then I find that predatory and only worthy of condemnation.

If my gorilla hands bust it up - then who gives a toss?  It was mine to do with as I please.  If, however, I can get that $5 chip and use my hot air station to effect a repair, then I'm happy.  But I - and pretty much everyone here - are not your "average" customer ... and for those people (which, I concede, will include us on occasions) the "independent repair guy" who has at least the basic equipment, skills and experience to be more successful, has a definite place. 

What peeves me, in addition to such restrictive practices, are the garbage arguments used by manufacturers and their lobbyists for the purpose of generating FUD on those who do not have the knowledge to see them as the garbage they are.

The principle they use is really quite simple -  choke off the supply of spare parts and force people to spend more money with them than otherwise would have been possible.  Use some of that money to buy off lawmakers, and bob's your uncle...

Oh gewd laird...

So you think it's really reasonable to expect them to pay the R&D for custom silicon, then just let the contract manufacturer sell that part on the open market?

That's dumber than expecting them to order extras and keep track of them so they can be sold in single part lots when some dodo nukes the mb.

It is literally the antithesis of how a corporation thinks and works.

Much more important, IMO, will be to make the manufacturer pay up front the real world disposal cost of all this disposable tech.

That would be a much more important wake-up call. And if that happened, things like making shit repairable would suddenly actually hold some value for them, especially if it helped them amortize that disposal cost over a longer period.

Right to Repair as it's offered right now is a fucking sham that only kicks the problem down the road for the next generation to deal with. Just like recycling plastic had been for 4 decades.

mnem
*punt!*

Bullshit. For the most part we aren't talking genuine custom silicon, but just stuff that has been slightly tweaked for features, including serialisation.

Corporate think is part of the problem too.

And think of all the thrift purchases you make. Given the opportunity, corporate think would make that an impossibility. Used things? Fuck off, buy new you fucking slave, or do without. THAT is the philosophy you are hypocritically defending whilst simultaneously thrifting around it.

[vk6zgo]

Yes, but you and I are reasonably intelligent people with a grasp of enlightened self-interest. These are selfish, small-minded people who can only manage to get a fucking MBA, for Ifni's sake.   

They have no problem not seeing the big picture, nor with flushing the rest of the world down the toilet as long as they get to stay on top of their particular little dungheap; FFS, most of them can't see past the tip of their own penis anyways.

mnem
 

Rant "ON":

Yes, Adam Smith was dreaming with his idea of "enlightened self interest".
Those who are at the top of the heap just hear the last two words.

Socialists know people are horrible, & somebody is going to be screwed, but try, not very successfully, to make the screwing a bit less specific to the poor.
(I'm not talking about Soviet style, which was just another way of screwing those elements of society without any power.)

It seems that powerful people often pine for a feudal society----witness billionaires with their mansions & servants, or the Party bosses in the old Soviet Union, with their "Palatial Dachas", again with servants, albeit paid by the long suffering taxpayer, & called "Comrade"!

The silly thing is such a society, when it really existed, stifled progress, & it wasn't until ordinary stiffs started having actual disposable income that industrial progress really took off.

The aristocrats in feudal times lived in cold, damp piles which stunk, the roads their carriages travelled on were pretty much dirt tracks.
They couldn't really do much for entertainment, except harass their "underlings", get drunk, go to church, & fornicate.(Not all at the same time!)
Once upon a blue moon, they got to visit the capital to grovel before the king. (Whoopee!)

As the majority of people get poorer, tax intake will fall, roads will deteriorate, other utilitities will fail, till today's "Lords & Ladies" will reside over a "train wreck" society, just like the one their predecessors "enjoyed!"

Rant "OFF"



 

[Saskia]

Which is happening in Germany right now. Still our politicians want German taxpayers to find the rest of the world and we are degraded to the level of the horses in Animal Farm while our politicians are the swine at the troths. Literally.
Anyway, this is getting too political again. 

[bd139]

I think it is the right thing to listen to his arguments and form your own opinion once you have listened. He even invites anyone to not take his word for everything, but put the manufacturers own service centres and authorised repair shops and 3rd party repair shops to the test by asking them the same questions, but make sure that you actually what the truth is before asking so that you will know when you're being lied to.

That is the way to get an independent assessment - but most people these days are just too lazy or time poor to make the effort.  They will sit back and let Youtube doo thu edukatin'.  While useful, this needs a discerning approach - but all too often it is just gulped down irrespective.

Then there is the produce of spin doctors.  The "Apple Authorized Service Provider" scheme being a classic of the art of obfuscation.  From what has been described, it is just a facade with the sole purpose of Apple being able to make a claim for the benefit of those who don't understand what it actually provides - or should I say, doesn't provide.


If there is one thing that I find unacceptable is where the product manufacturer instructs the chip manufacturer to NOT sell chips to anyone else.  If I have a product with a fault I have tracked down to a particular chip and I can't buy a $5 replacement because somebody "said so" and the only options (according to the manufacturer) are an expensive repair with them or buying a new product - then I find that predatory and only worthy of condemnation.

If my gorilla hands bust it up - then who gives a toss?  It was mine to do with as I please.  If, however, I can get that $5 chip and use my hot air station to effect a repair, then I'm happy.  But I - and pretty much everyone here - are not your "average" customer ... and for those people (which, I concede, will include us on occasions) the "independent repair guy" who has at least the basic equipment, skills and experience to be more successful, has a definite place. 

What peeves me, in addition to such restrictive practices, are the garbage arguments used by manufacturers and their lobbyists for the purpose of generating FUD on those who do not have the knowledge to see them as the garbage they are.

The principle they use is really quite simple -  choke off the supply of spare parts and force people to spend more money with them than otherwise would have been possible.  Use some of that money to buy off lawmakers, and bob's your uncle...

Oh gewd laird...

So you think it's really reasonable to expect them to pay the R&D for custom silicon, then just let the contract manufacturer sell that part on the open market?

That's dumber than expecting them to order extras and keep track of them so they can be sold in single part lots when some dodo nukes the mb.

It is literally the antithesis of how a corporation thinks and works.

Much more important, IMO, will be to make the manufacturer pay up front the real world disposal cost of all this disposable tech.

That would be a much more important wake-up call. And if that happened, things like making shit repairable would suddenly actually hold some value for them, especially if it helped them amortize that disposal cost over a longer period.

Right to Repair as it's offered right now is a fucking sham that only kicks the problem down the road for the next generation to deal with. Just like recycling plastic had been for 4 decades.

mnem
*punt!*

Bullshit. For the most part we aren't talking genuine custom silicon, but just stuff that has been slightly tweaked for features, including serialisation.

Corporate think is part of the problem too.

And think of all the thrift purchases you make. Given the opportunity, corporate think would make that an impossibility. Used things? Fuck off, buy new you fucking slave, or do without. THAT is the philosophy you are hypocritically defending whilst simultaneously thrifting around it.

In the past yes. But if you look at the SoC direction then it’s everything on one IC. That IC is either BGA’ed or more likely flip chipped onto the board and that’s a functional requirement now. Realistically your position is ten years old on repair. While I’d love to have devices there are repairable, our demands for integration, performance and portability during the utility part of the lifecycle absolutely trump that. Most of the high volume SoC based systems are custom ICs because they are cheap in that volume.

That notably doesn’t apply to all devices but the majority of ones where complaints turn up. Whoever designs washing machine control boards for example is a cunt and should be shot though as there aren’t requirements in that space.

The whole problem is that a universal right to repair doesn’t cope well with both ends of the spectrum. Neither does the current situation for end of life devices. I can see the end coming now already.

Let’s bring it back closer to home. So it’s 4 years down the line and my SDS1202X-E drops dead then what do I do?

1. I’m a business customer so the 3 year warranty is gone.
2. I can’t claim under CRA2015 because that applies to consumer purchases.
3. Past trivial checking of power rails, I can’t reason about the function of the device easily.

My option is basically bounce it on eBay as broken or take it to the WEEE skip and chuck it in. Which is what happens to literally tonnes of stuff every day.

What I’m asking for is that the manufacturer’s agent gives me £126 back as it didn’t last a reasonable amount of time and then has to foot the disposal, recycling and/or refurbishment costs themselves. That means that serviceable or easy to recycle equipment becomes a design factor.

As for the second hand and thrift market, it’s a bit of a shit show really. Most of the stuff I buy is really quite old and has service information but is still a massive risk as they’re full of unobtainable ASICs and the like. But going to my list of points above, I’m buying stuff that was bounced on eBay by someone who didn’t want to stick it in the WEEE skip.

In short, right to repair makes even more unrealistic demands on society to prop up a notionally dead industry instead of improving the end user’s story. 99.9% of people really don’t give a shit about repair - they just want something that works and that’s who we need to protect here, not us screwdriver monkeys. And most people can’t afford to put the money on the table for items and end up paying monthly in some capacity or other. They need recourse rather than trailing debts.

[vk6zgo]

On the repair front, I work on the basis that warrantees aren't worth "a pinch of cockatoo's poo".

For a non-Apple laptop, if it fails, it probably won't be some "high tech" bit of the guts, but is more likely to be a stupid power connector, or the lid hinges.

In a way, you are better to drop the bloody thing rather than have a real fault, as you can probably claim it on home insurance.

The trouble is, iPads & the like seem to be pretty rugged mechanically, so any fault probably will be "in the guts".

[bd139]

That’s the problem I want sorted. And no manufacturer specified warranties should exist. Should be statutory  law.

Yep they are crazy rugged. Had one damaged device here in about 6 years and that was a face down drop of an ancientiPhone 7 into concrete. And I still got £100 for it  . iPads have survived kids for years. In fact the one I just sold end of last year was 7 years old and still going strong.