Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[AVGresponding]

Hmm page 3468, you guys have been busy today.

[mnementh]

Or you could just figure it as what it really is: part of the cost of doing business, like the physical infrastructure and payroll you get rid of by not having to have dozens of cashiers and tills to manage cash at every transaction. ie: charging the customer for what saves you money overall is just plain  .

mnem
 

Say your store takes in $20K per day.  You are paying the CC companies $400 a day for the convenience of not going to the bank...   can you do that for less?  -  I'm pretty sure you could hire two or three full time shop assistants in some countries, who could then also do other things in addition to going to the bank! 

It is more complicated than "the Swiss are being cheap" !   

No, what I'm saying is that the corporate overlords are skimming off the top and the bottom, like they always do. The majority of fuel stations in the developed world are by far members of some corporate chain; they are doing what they always do, which is charging the customer for everything they think they can spin something for, all the while doing everything they can to cut every single person they can out of the payroll. They see not paying employees as their god-given right, not something that should be done in moderation for the good of the economy. 

In today's age of e-commerce, CC/Debit payment handling is part of the cost of doing business. How would you react if say Amazon or Best Buy started charging a surcharge for using a Debit card? How aboot the Coke machine on the corner?

It's 107% bullshit ; which is exactly how the corporate mindset expects to get paid: 107% for bullshit.

Business as usual; lather, rinse, repeat.

mnem
*punt!*

[Specmaster]

[...]
In Sweden, CC fees are illegal.
[...]

What they really mean is, "CC fees are hidden" and you will pay the CC fees even if you pay cash!

The merchant agreement that the business owner signs with the bank to be able to accept credit cards specifically require the merchant to not give cash discounts, in order to make the CC fees less visible to the consumers.

In the US, this practice has been clamped down on, so today you can actually pay less at a gas station if you pay cash...

Inasmuch as the price is the same, yes, the same fees apply. However, as soon as "handling cash" is more elaborate for the business than emptying the till into the mattress, it starts to cost money. It's actually so that a lot of stores here have stopped accepting cash. Because it is expensive, cumbersome and dangerous.

Make of that what you will, but I'm thrilled with the convenience this offers. As I've written before; I never exchange money before traveling abroad (you know, going somewhere else, for work or leisure; we used to do it back in 2019..) because my credit and debit cards work better than money, except in Germany and where the mob rules the economy.

Hmm, yeah except I fear for us Brits and our folly of Brexiting using our CC's overseas will either cost us a lot more impossible, oh and yeah, there will always a proportion of society who will have no access to plastic of any sort so for them cash is their only means paying.

[Specmaster]

Hmm page 3468, you guys have been busy today.

Well done, you have now successfully stacked your 3468A  Plus in addition you have just shown the other thing that always pissed me of with my 3468A, it prefers to display resistances in as Mohms instead of Kohms 

[bd139]

Got to say that I prefer manual ranging meters. I don’t know of any auto rangers that aren’t fuckity in some way or another. There’s a nice button that enables that fortunately on that series of DMM.

[Specmaster]

Got to say that I prefer manual ranging meters. I don’t know of any auto rangers that aren’t fuckity in some way or another. There’s a nice button that enables that fortunately on that series of DMM.

I think from memory, it will still display that value as Mohms, hence why it was the first meter I flipped, unlike the 3466A and 3478A which has the correct annunciator for each range. I still have my 3466A, which I may retain, even though it is the only meter that will not accept modern shrouded test leads, it is useful meter on the bench to have if it still has its internal battery system intact and functioning.

[mnementh]

Okay Apple nerds... I'm calling for a lifeline here.

2 questions: First, did Apple use RAID on these older MacPros from the factory? Or did they only do that with a separate RAID controller?  MacPro 3.1, dual 3GHz Xeon with 4 750GB SAS drives

If I have a spare HDD lying around... what would be the gotchas for trying to install winblows to that HDD? Lots of very confusing info and fanboying over the merest suggestion of such a thing; even tho we all know these are essentially DOS boxes perverted to a "higher" purpose.

One tiny bit of hope from a random site splashdown stated it was easy... you just need a SATA optical drive connected to one of the HDD ports inside the machine, as Windoze10 iso won't boot from IDE, and you can't make the machine boot from USB without MacOS/Bootcamp Assistant.

So, as it seemed relatively painless, I tried this... and what I got was:

Machine tried to boot 3 different times, each time with the boot chime, I assume from other drives before the one I had plugged in with a (older, small enough to fit on a 4.7GB disk) Windows10 iso on a SATA optical drive.

On 3rd attempt it spins up Win10 to full speed and sounds like it's reading for 20-30 seconds; then stops and shuts down. A few seconds later it attempts to boot from the drive again, spinning it up for 20-30 seconds before stopping, shutting down, making the boot chime, and trying to boot from the Win10 disk again. It will continue looping like this as long as I don't shut it down. It sounds like WALL-E waking up in my living room twice a minute.

There is never any video of any sort; I've tried 4 different video cards, but none have a Mac-specific FW aside from the NVidia card I know is dead from testing in my PC.

So far, this is the closest to actual signs of life I've gotten from this machine. Specmaster, you may now point and laugh at the old fat dwagon who insisted that optical drives all belong in a landfill.

So... lifeline please. Is there something ELSE I can try, or am I pretty much boned unless I can resurrect that NVidia GPU so I can see preboot UI?

mnem
 

[25 CPS]

Okay Apple nerds... I'm calling for a lifeline here.

2 questions: First, did Apple use RAID on these older MacPros from the factory? Or did they only do that with a separate RAID controller?  MacPro 3.1, dual 3GHz Xeon with 4 750GB SAS drives

If I have a spare HDD lying around... what would be the gotchas for trying to install winblows to that HDD? Lots of very confusing info and fanboying over the merest suggestion of such a thing; even tho we all know these are essentially DOS boxes perverted to a "higher" purpose.

One tiny bit of hope from a random site splashdown stated it was easy... you just need a SATA optical drive connected to one of the HDD ports inside the machine, as Windoze10 iso won't boot from IDE, and you can't make the machine boot from USB without MacOS/Bootcamp Assistant.

So, as it seemed relatively painless, I tried this... and what I got was:

Machine tried to boot 3 different times, each time with the boot chime, I assume from other drives before the one I had plugged in with a (older, small enough to fit on a 4.7GB disk) Windows10 iso on a SATA optical drive.

On 3rd attempt it spins up Win10 to full speed and sounds like it's reading for 20-30 seconds; then stops and shuts down. A few seconds later it attempts to boot from the drive again, spinning it up for 20-30 seconds before stopping, shutting down, making the boot chime, and trying to boot from the Win10 disk again. It will continue looping like this as long as I don't shut it down. It sounds like WALL-E waking up in my living room twice a minute.

There is never any video of any sort; I've tried 4 different video cards, but none have a Mac-specific FW aside from the NVidia card I know is dead from testing in my PC.

So far, this is the closest to actual signs of life I've gotten from this machine. Specmaster, you may now point and laugh at the old fat dwagon who insisted that optical drives all belong in a landfill.

So... lifeline please. Is there something ELSE I can try, or am I pretty much boned unless I can resurrect that NVidia GPU so I can see preboot UI?

mnem
 

There was a Mac Pro RAID card option to do hardware RAIDs in those machines.  You'll see it in the machine plainly if it's there so it doesn't sound like yours has that option.  Anyhow, installing and booting from Windows on that machine means setting it up with Bootcamp on the boot disk.  What you need is a USB key or an OS CD to boot the machine and do the setup.

[mnementh]

Yeah, i knew there was a RAID Card offered for hardware RAID. I just didn't know if that was the only implementation they used.

So you're saying is that there's stuff in what passes for a BIOS on this thing that will expect certain Mac-only code on the HDD, so no way to do this without a working Mac, right?

Or is it expecting at least a bootloader from a HFS partition, after which it will boot from other filesystems?

Dammit... it's been so long since I effed with this crap... probably as long as this machine is old. And even then I didn't fully understand what I was doing; now I feel like I'm starting all over again.

mnem
 

[25 CPS]

So you're saying is that there's stuff in what passes for a BIOS on this thing that will expect certain Mac-only code on the HDD, so no way to do this without a working Mac, right?

Or is it expecting at least a bootloader from a HFS partition, after which it will boot from other filesystems?

Dammit... it's been so long since I effed with this crap... probably as long as this machine is old. And even then I didn't fully understand what I was doing; now I feel like I'm starting all over again.

mnem
 

Apple went from Open Firmware to EFI when the changed to Intel which is why Bootcamp is needed to boot and run Windows directly on the machine without a virtualization environment like Parallels, VMWare, VirtualBox etc.  Mac OS will boot from EFI directly off an HFS+ disk no problem but adding a Windows partition requires Bootcamp which supplies a bootloader, device drivers, etc. to make the Windows partition go.

[25 CPS]

And here it is. Safely inside and on the scope cart. Tomorrow I'll start the cleaning/tear down.  The covers look a little rough and have many scratches/scrapes. I'll give them a good cleaning then determine if they need paint.

More tomorrow.

That looks like a nice machine.  Reading back through your posts, it sounds like you've gone through a nasty ordeal right after picking it up but I'm glad to see you're on the mend now.

[mnementh]

So you're saying is that there's stuff in what passes for a BIOS on this thing that will expect certain Mac-only code on the HDD, so no way to do this without a working Mac, right?

Or is it expecting at least a bootloader from a HFS partition, after which it will boot from other filesystems?

Dammit... it's been so long since I effed with this crap... probably as long as this machine is old. And even then I didn't fully understand what I was doing; now I feel like I'm starting all over again.

mnem
 

Apple went from Open Firmware to EFI when the changed to Intel which is why Bootcamp is needed to boot and run Windows directly on the machine without a virtualization environment like Parallels, VMWare, VirtualBox etc.  Mac OS will boot from EFI directly off an HFS+ disk no problem but adding a Windows partition requires Bootcamp which supplies a bootloader, device drivers, etc. to make the Windows partition go.

Yeah, I think the problem is I don't understand the boot process as well as I do DOS boxes. What I'm looking for here is a clean install of Windoze on a spare HDD, just for the purposes of determining what hardware is working and isn't. I've been reading everything I can find, but the real technical stuff is parsed out in little dribs & drabs between megadoses of the same exact "Bootcamp this" or "Install Win10 without Bootcamp, only not really" and fanboi-ing BS.

It's literally wading through a sea of shite picking out kernels of corn, IYKWIM.

I just found this after like half a dozen attempts. I swear...  https://www.cnet.com/news/troubleshooting-the-boot-process-for-intel-macs/

mnem
moo.

[25 CPS]

So you're saying is that there's stuff in what passes for a BIOS on this thing that will expect certain Mac-only code on the HDD, so no way to do this without a working Mac, right?

Or is it expecting at least a bootloader from a HFS partition, after which it will boot from other filesystems?

Dammit... it's been so long since I effed with this crap... probably as long as this machine is old. And even then I didn't fully understand what I was doing; now I feel like I'm starting all over again.

mnem
 

Apple went from Open Firmware to EFI when the changed to Intel which is why Bootcamp is needed to boot and run Windows directly on the machine without a virtualization environment like Parallels, VMWare, VirtualBox etc.  Mac OS will boot from EFI directly off an HFS+ disk no problem but adding a Windows partition requires Bootcamp which supplies a bootloader, device drivers, etc. to make the Windows partition go.

Yeah, I think the problem is I don't understand the boot process as well as I do DOS boxes. What I'm looking for here is a clean install of Windoze on a spare HDD, just for the purposes of determining what hardware is working and isn't. I've been reading everything I can find, but the real technical stuff is parsed out in little dribs & drabs between megadoses of the same exact "Bootcamp this" or "Install Win10 without Bootcamp, only not really" and fanboi-ing BS.

It's literally wading through a sea of shite picking out kernels of corn, IYKWIM.

I just found this after like half a dozen attempts. I swear...  https://www.cnet.com/news/troubleshooting-the-boot-process-for-intel-macs/

mnem
moo.

If you've got a spare USB key kicking around, you might be able to use a PC to turn it into a bootable Linux key with a distribution that'll boot an Intel Mac Pro and that'll let you test drive the system.  That avoids having an OS X install disc with a high enough version for that Mac Pro and going through the whole Bootcamp headache to make it natively run Windows off a hard disk.

[mnementh]

LOL... you read my bent little brain. I'm burning a UBCD right now. 

mnem
 

[mnementh]

UBCD FTW!

Should've known I'd need prehistoric tools for this prehistoric iron. 

A'aight... testing with the OE GPU was no-go; so unless I win the home-brew GPU reflow lottery, this beast is pretty much not much good except as a *NIX machine, cuz I ain't buyin' a Mac-certifiable GPU.

Okay, okay... as a open source *NIX machine, rather that the current closed-source variant. 

So... which of you psychos wants to fuck the tinkerdwagon's brain up with your favorite distro, and why should I let you...? 

I have a infection-distribution PC, and a fistful of blank infection discs... so, lay it on me. 

mnem

[mansaxel]

So... which of you psychos wants to fuck the tinkerdwagon's brain up with your favorite distro, and why should I let you...? 

The talk of "distribution" and such penguiny terms implies to the listener that there only is a selection between variants of Linux to be considered.

IMNSHO Linux is a toy compared to the BSD variants.

The UNIX userland in OS X is mostly based on FreeBSD userland. I'm running FreeBSD on metal and on most of my vm's (and I mix toys into that, frequently, so am not religious, just aware of the facts.) and it is a very consistent and high quality experience.  It does get my vote, but the others (NetBSD, OpenBSD) aren't bad either. (Open also is Canadian; Theo lives in Calgary.. )

If you decide to stoop so low that installing Linux (arguably better than Windows, somewhat.) is considered, the worst you can do is pure Lennartware like any of the DeadRat derivates or Ubuntu, also known as Debian/broken.

The least broken Linux is either SlackWare or Devuan. I've not run Slack for more than 15 years, and I installed Debian before their developers "decided" to use systemd. Now the reasonable model of apt-based packaging together with a working init that is only an init, makes Devuan least bad of all the Linuxen.

[Brumby]

OS/2 Warp ..... geez, what a throw back.  It's been 25 years since anyone has even uttered that phrase within my hearing.

[beanflying]

So... which of you psychos wants to fuck the tinkerdwagon's brain up with your favorite distro, and why should I let you...? 

The talk of "distribution" and such penguiny terms implies to the listener that there only is a selection between variants of Linux to be considered.

IMNSHO Linux is a toy compared to the BSD variants.

The UNIX userland in OS X is mostly based on FreeBSD userland. I'm running FreeBSD on metal and on most of my vm's (and I mix toys into that, frequently, so am not religious, just aware of the facts.) and it is a very consistent and high quality experience.  It does get my vote, but the others (NetBSD, OpenBSD) aren't bad either. (Open also is Canadian; Theo lives in Calgary.. )

If you decide to stoop so low that installing Linux (arguably better than Windows, somewhat.) is considered, the worst you can do is pure Lennartware like any of the DeadRat derivates or Ubuntu, also known as Debian/broken.

The least broken Linux is either SlackWare or Devuan. I've not run Slack for more than 15 years, and I installed Debian before their developers "decided" to use systemd. Now the reasonable model of apt-based packaging together with a working init that is only an init, makes Devuan least bad of all the Linuxen.

The Best Distro to burn for it is Charcoal and save your remaining brain cells for better projects instead of Linux/Unix   

[mnementh]

So... which of you psychos wants to fuck the tinkerdwagon's brain up with your favorite distro, and why should I let you...? 

The talk of "distribution" and such penguiny terms implies to the listener that there only is a selection between variants of Linux to be considered.

IMNSHO Linux is a toy compared to the BSD variants.

The UNIX userland in OS X is mostly based on FreeBSD userland. I'm running FreeBSD on metal and on most of my vm's (and I mix toys into that, frequently, so am not religious, just aware of the facts.) and it is a very consistent and high quality experience.  It does get my vote, but the others (NetBSD, OpenBSD) aren't bad either. (Open also is Canadian; Theo lives in Calgary.. )

If you decide to stoop so low that installing Linux (arguably better than Windows, somewhat.) is considered, the worst you can do is pure Lennartware like any of the DeadRat derivates or Ubuntu, also known as Debian/broken.

The least broken Linux is either SlackWare or Devuan. I've not run Slack for more than 15 years, and I installed Debian before their developers "decided" to use systemd. Now the reasonable model of apt-based packaging together with a working init that is only an init, makes Devuan least bad of all the Linuxen.

I'm sure I'll offend a bit with this, but having been inflicted with actual UNIX at Uni the first time thru, I consider them all to be offshoots of that same psychotic seed. Still better than all the CP/M deviant derivatives, however.

My personal desire would be as painless a install process as my last Ubuntu install on a PowerPC Macbook; that was actually less misery than Winblows. I don't know enough aboot what I need from it to sensibly pick the options for my own compile, so as plain vanilla as possible in a prebuilt iso. Essentially I want a machine that mostly works so I can just learn on it, rather than having to learn by fixxoring something that's fuxxored out of the box.

mnem
*toddles off to ded*

[beanflying]

Playtime on the bench with LED's and filters.  After a bit of a warmup Siglent and Cheap and Cheerful seem to agree and as the Siglent was tweaked to the GPSDO a while ago I guess it must be close and now readable even with 3W of LED fired at it from close range.

[mnementh]

OS/2 Warp ..... geez, what a throw back.  It's been 25 years since anyone has even uttered that phrase within my hearing.

I know... and I knew that was gonna trigger somebody.     I used to keep a old Warped Pentium box from BlockBuster in the corner; for shits & grins I'd occasionally fire it up on a Sunday evening just to hear the demons inside howl.

mnem
*knocks self unconscious with a warp core mallet*

[bd139]

All computers suck. Some less than others.

I think Unix is a vile pile of hippy turds but it’s the least painful thing so far. We could do better as a species but we’re still in the primitive early days of the industry. A few people had the right idea along the lines but it wasn’t sexy enough to market very well. I mean a Symbolics XBox One is where we really needed to go. Alas a game pad with ( and ) on it instead of X and O isn’t at all sexy.

OS/2 warp was a drunk griffin.

[Brumby]

BLUE FTW!   (as predicted)

[25 CPS]

OS/2 Warp ..... geez, what a throw back.  It's been 25 years since anyone has even uttered that phrase within my hearing.

Tell me about it.  I found myself bringing it up back in December when I was trying to explain to some kids what the world was like in 1995 to give some context to something that happened then that we were talking about.

[beanflying]

BLUE FTW!   (as predicted)

There was a few shades of blue and a purple I tried, darker gave the best contrast and even one of the more pale Reds was an improvement over nothing. I was very tempted to laser cut it just because it exists and I had done the profile but I broke out a scalpel as it was quicker than booting the other PC up