Author Topic: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread  (Read 18653099 times)

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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #71700 on: October 10, 2020, 04:20:05 pm »
Both channels when grounded. 100% triggerable!  >:(



Go and dig out your electrolytics left over from previous recapping :)
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline Specmaster

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #71701 on: October 10, 2020, 04:22:16 pm »
Both channels when grounded. 100% triggerable!  >:(



Go and dig out your electrolytics left over from previous recapping :)
Many of them have gone to meet their maker after having being sacrificed by being blown to bits.
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Offline tonyalbus

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #71702 on: October 10, 2020, 04:24:04 pm »
Both channels when grounded. 100% triggerable!  >:(



Go and dig out your electrolytics left over from previous recapping :)
Many of them have gone to meet their maker after having being sacrificed by being blown to bits.

i think it is up-side-down... and you have 2 sharks swimming in there  :-DD :-DD
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Offline mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #71703 on: October 10, 2020, 04:24:38 pm »

You and I and most of the old buzzards in here know that.

But that's because we know how to use a analog meter because we grew up with them. I bet one in a thousand of the current crop of *ahem* "EEs" groks that in any significant way. And less than one in a thousand of THEM are going to be willing/able to sell that to their pointy-haired boss.  :palm:

They're just going to get the single-purpose specialized test set for whatever application they're working on; or trust what they see on the screen of their half-million dollar DSO/MSO and use that for their "certifications".

Case in point... go to the FCC website and pick a few random FCC "certifications" for some pieces of gear that emit RF, either accidentally or on purpose. Look at the test setups used for validation. All are painstakingly well-documented, but the actual test setups are often utterly cringeworthy; enough to make a real EE from our generation cry. And I ain't claiming to be one; while I may cling to the fact of having held the title a few times, I'm at best a jackleg EE with just enough knowledge to grok how little I actually know. Even I cringe at some of what I've seen there. :palm:

mnem


Taking a break, waiting for a coat of paint to dry before applying a 2nd coat.

The Fluke 87 is an absolutely wonderful instrument. But it's bargraph is worse than useless. I've tried, several times, to use it to align IF cans on receivers and it just doesn't cut. It jumps around then suddenly changes ranges and you have no idea where you are. Break out the VTVM on low AC volts and presto, done in 2 minutes.  :-+

The 87-IV (or 189 as they later came to be labeled ;)) is the polar opposite; they knew the bargraph on previous 87s was a point of contention, and they made the 87-IV so it could be configured for peak, mean and averaging. It WORKS well... but still no comparison in usability to a nice big 4-6 inch analog needle. :-+

Again... you and I know this on a visceral level.

Most of today's "EEs", when faced with any analog display, get a look on their face like a tree full of owls. And they're the ones who drive product development, and the ones who sell their pointy-haired bosses on the tools they "need" to do their jobs.

mnem
 :horse:
« Last Edit: October 10, 2020, 04:26:15 pm by mnementh »
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Offline bd139

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #71704 on: October 10, 2020, 04:24:58 pm »
Caps are all new. Caught it red handed!

Pink link is regulator output. Yellow line is regulator input. It just suddenly starts sinking a fuck load more current which causes the regulator to drop out.



No event is tied to this other than time. Going to be a bastard to find that!
 
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Offline mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #71705 on: October 10, 2020, 04:27:14 pm »
Use a analog meter. you've got one of those, right...? :-DD

mnem
 >:D
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Offline med6753

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #71706 on: October 10, 2020, 04:27:48 pm »
Caps are all new. Caught it red handed!

Pink link is regulator output. Yellow line is regulator input. It just suddenly starts sinking a fuck load more current which causes the regulator to drop out.



No event is tied to this other than time. Going to be a bastard to find that!

Does it have tants!  ;D
An old gray beard with an attitude.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #71707 on: October 10, 2020, 04:28:29 pm »
Nope! None!  :-DD
 
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Offline tonyalbus

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #71708 on: October 10, 2020, 04:29:55 pm »
Caps are all new. Caught it red handed!

Pink link is regulator output. Yellow line is regulator input. It just suddenly starts sinking a fuck load more current which causes the regulator to drop out.



No event is tied to this other than time. Going to be a bastard to find that!

shoot...its more then 2 sharks.... :-DD :-DD
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Offline nfmax

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #71709 on: October 10, 2020, 04:33:50 pm »
Caps are all new. Caught it red handed!

Pink link is regulator output. Yellow line is regulator input. It just suddenly starts sinking a fuck load more current which causes the regulator to drop out.



No event is tied to this other than time. Going to be a bastard to find that!

shoot...its more then 2 sharks.... :-DD :-DD

But the ripple frequency halves - do you have a dodgy rectifier diode?
 
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #71710 on: October 10, 2020, 04:34:03 pm »
Both channels when grounded. 100% triggerable!  >:(



Go and dig out your electrolytics left over from previous recapping :)
Many of them have gone to meet their maker after having being sacrificed by being blown to bits.

i think it is up-side-down... and you have 2 sharks swimming in there  :-DD :-DD

They are hole sharks.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #71711 on: October 10, 2020, 04:37:21 pm »
Caps are all new. Caught it red handed!

Pink link is regulator output. Yellow line is regulator input. It just suddenly starts sinking a fuck load more current which causes the regulator to drop out.



No event is tied to this other than time. Going to be a bastard to find that!

Freezer spray and hot air gun on rectifiers, caps, regulators.

FLIR camera, or failing that a one-pixel non-contact thermometer, or failing that simply get pull your finger out.

Turn it upside down, and use percussive maintenance techniques. Much more satisfying than simply reseating connectors.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2020, 04:38:55 pm by tggzzz »
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #71712 on: October 10, 2020, 04:43:18 pm »
Yeah, that I can totally get... there is very little marketing involved in the production of the sensor heads or the thermistor mount; they're not very exciting. The meter itself is where marketing comes in, so every once in a while a more modern-looking model has to happen.

Where I got on the wrong side of this conversation was the prehistoric analog meter still being kept in stock at HPAK; that's what I was originally talking about, not the thermistor/mount as a separate entity (even tho, as I understand it, the mount and thermistor can actually be used by themselves).

I still suspect the old meter lingers there because TPTB know there is/are some large money customer(s) (be it military, manufacturing, scientific or calibration labs) that still have some need for that particular model. And I still suspect that reason is some standards document (maybe internal, maybe external) that is ultimately referred to again and again in which that meter is a requisite. Or maybe they keep it around because it is used to calibrate/validate subsequent models, and they have enough NOS to be able to offer some for sale to calibration labs etc, I dunno.  :-//

But it makes no sense for them to spend the money keeping track of the damn things for 5+ decades if someone who makes these decisions didn't expect to recoup it from somewhere; I mean, FFS, the things outlived that crazy bitch and the HP television years... :o

mnem
 :popcorn:

But it makes no sense for them to spend the money keeping track of the damn things for 5+ decades if someone who makes these decisions didn't expect to recoup it from somewhere; I mean, FFS, the things outlived that crazy bitch and the HP television years... :o

mnem
 :popcorn:

Why would they bother to keep manufacturing it (the sensor)? Well, why not if it is good enough and there's a demand? It's surely more expensive to cut a new design and qualify that than to "keep track" as you put it, of an old design. This is all custom manufacture, there's no parts obsolescence to deal with.

The metering bit has been replaced (in 2011), 432A obsoleted and the N432A substituted for it.

RF power measurements aren't particularly high precision or high accuracy by their nature, that they're typically measured and specified on a dB scale gives a clue to that - so an analogue meter is probably always going to be 'good enough'.  There's no driving need for a new shiny more accurate or more precise meter - except perhaps the perception by some that a 'digital' meter is somehow more accurate than an 'analogue' one. The need to make automated measurements that one obviously can't with an analogue device would be a sane requirement, and that seems to have now been taken care of with the retirement of the 432A and the introduction of the new shiny digital N432A. The accuracy of the new shiny digital version is 0.1% ±5uW, which makes the 61/2 digit ADC on it ever so slightly overkill. I suspect that the fact that it looks like one of the TrueVolt DVM range is no accident, but without schematics I can't prove my suspicion that it's a 34461 DVM with the input circuitry ripped out and replaced with interfacing to the power sensor.

As to the core measurement technology - a thermistor oven and a balancing bridge. That's probably going to be good enough for its purposes forever. The thermistor bit is easily characterised against primary standards. The bridge as a measurement technique is good enough that it's still being used as the core of measurement of some primary standards to stupid levels of precision.

Dude... come on. I stated very clearly in that very post that I was talking about the prehistoric analog meter. Obviously on some level you recognized that; or you wouldn't have omitted that part of the post. Hence, this entire point is well... pointless.  :palm:

And if you weren't sure, it should be obvious that I understand PRECISELY the point you are making here, because I stated the same thing in this post which precedes the one above:

So even HP hasn't come up with anything better in the 60+ years since it was released? What device is specified as the standard by which this device is validated? Bet it's another one of the same, isn't it...?

Also; are we talking about the meter here, or the mount and thermistor? The mount/thermistor I can see; there's no need for that to change, for the same reason the 84xx series sensors remain relevant. The meter itself...? come on; they have to have come up with something better by now. :palm:

mnem
 :popcorn:

mnem
 :wtf:

Sorry, I didn't realise that you were looking for an argument not a discussion.

Obviously on some level you recognized that; or you wouldn't have omitted that part of the post. Hence, this entire point is well... pointless.  :palm:

When you start that sort of accusation, yeah, it's pretty clear that you just want another "Mnem's right" argument. On that point you know what you can do...
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Offline mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #71713 on: October 10, 2020, 04:54:00 pm »
Caps are all new. Caught it red handed!

Pink link is regulator output. Yellow line is regulator input. It just suddenly starts sinking a fuck load more current which causes the regulator to drop out.

No event is tied to this other than time. Going to be a bastard to find that!

Does it have tants!  ;D



mnem
 :wtf:
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Offline tonyalbus

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #71714 on: October 10, 2020, 05:03:27 pm »
Caps are all new. Caught it red handed!

Pink link is regulator output. Yellow line is regulator input. It just suddenly starts sinking a fuck load more current which causes the regulator to drop out.

No event is tied to this other than time. Going to be a bastard to find that!

Does it have tants!  ;D



mnem
 :wtf:

tants ohw wait pants ??
what?
yes also on ocd?? odc?? odysee....yes dave told me so...
oh...all these languses here... pff
keep it light fellows  :-+

Edit[quoted the wrong message...]

lets be friends all here.... its just such a friendly place here....and there are not to many....in the world....we have something special here (cat in booths face...)
things get 'lost in translation' none of us are native speakers of what ever we speak here... at least i am not.
all i know we speak TEA..... TEA is good.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2020, 05:32:13 pm by tonyalbus »
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Offline mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #71715 on: October 10, 2020, 05:08:49 pm »
Yeah, that I can totally get... there is very little marketing involved in the production of the sensor heads or the thermistor mount; they're not very exciting. The meter itself is where marketing comes in, so every once in a while a more modern-looking model has to happen.

Where I got on the wrong side of this conversation was the prehistoric analog meter still being kept in stock at HPAK; that's what I was originally talking about, not the thermistor/mount as a separate entity (even tho, as I understand it, the mount and thermistor can actually be used by themselves).

I still suspect the old meter lingers there because TPTB know there is/are some large money customer(s) (be it military, manufacturing, scientific or calibration labs) that still have some need for that particular model. And I still suspect that reason is some standards document (maybe internal, maybe external) that is ultimately referred to again and again in which that meter is a requisite. Or maybe they keep it around because it is used to calibrate/validate subsequent models, and they have enough NOS to be able to offer some for sale to calibration labs etc, I dunno.  :-//

But it makes no sense for them to spend the money keeping track of the damn things for 5+ decades if someone who makes these decisions didn't expect to recoup it from somewhere; I mean, FFS, the things outlived that crazy bitch and the HP television years... :o

mnem
 :popcorn:

But it makes no sense for them to spend the money keeping track of the damn things for 5+ decades if someone who makes these decisions didn't expect to recoup it from somewhere; I mean, FFS, the things outlived that crazy bitch and the HP television years... :o

mnem
 :popcorn:

Why would they bother to keep manufacturing it (the sensor)? Well, why not if it is good enough and there's a demand? It's surely more expensive to cut a new design and qualify that than to "keep track" as you put it, of an old design. This is all custom manufacture, there's no parts obsolescence to deal with.

The metering bit has been replaced (in 2011), 432A obsoleted and the N432A substituted for it.

RF power measurements aren't particularly high precision or high accuracy by their nature, that they're typically measured and specified on a dB scale gives a clue to that - so an analogue meter is probably always going to be 'good enough'.  There's no driving need for a new shiny more accurate or more precise meter - except perhaps the perception by some that a 'digital' meter is somehow more accurate than an 'analogue' one. The need to make automated measurements that one obviously can't with an analogue device would be a sane requirement, and that seems to have now been taken care of with the retirement of the 432A and the introduction of the new shiny digital N432A. The accuracy of the new shiny digital version is 0.1% ±5uW, which makes the 61/2 digit ADC on it ever so slightly overkill. I suspect that the fact that it looks like one of the TrueVolt DVM range is no accident, but without schematics I can't prove my suspicion that it's a 34461 DVM with the input circuitry ripped out and replaced with interfacing to the power sensor.

As to the core measurement technology - a thermistor oven and a balancing bridge. That's probably going to be good enough for its purposes forever. The thermistor bit is easily characterised against primary standards. The bridge as a measurement technique is good enough that it's still being used as the core of measurement of some primary standards to stupid levels of precision.

Dude... come on. I stated very clearly in that very post that I was talking about the prehistoric analog meter. Obviously on some level you recognized that; or you wouldn't have omitted that part of the post. Hence, this entire point is well... pointless.  :palm:

And if you weren't sure, it should be obvious that I understand PRECISELY the point you are making here, because I stated the same thing in this post which precedes the one above:

So even HP hasn't come up with anything better in the 60+ years since it was released? What device is specified as the standard by which this device is validated? Bet it's another one of the same, isn't it...?

Also; are we talking about the meter here, or the mount and thermistor? The mount/thermistor I can see; there's no need for that to change, for the same reason the 84xx series sensors remain relevant. The meter itself...? come on; they have to have come up with something better by now. :palm:

mnem
 :popcorn:

mnem
 :wtf:

Sorry, I didn't realise that you were looking for an argument not a discussion.

Obviously on some level you recognized that; or you wouldn't have omitted that part of the post. Hence, this entire point is well... pointless.  :palm:

When you start that sort of accusation, yeah, it's pretty clear that you just want another "Mnem's right" argument. On that point you know what you can do...

You know, I'm kindof sick of this accusation from you C. Let me set you straight... most of the time when you make this accusation, I'm not saying I'm right. I'm saying that if I'm wrong, that's okay. I have a right to be wrong, and I don't need you to fucking correct me. 

The internet is full of wrong people. Some of us are your friends. We don't need to be corrected every time we're wrong. We need to be corrected for imagined errors even less so.

When you so very obviously misquote me to have something to argue against... THAT I have a right to get a bit peeved over, and I'm gonna tell you about it. Suck it up and deal.

All it would have taken from you is a slightly less confrontational approach here... You could have taken any of the above posts where I said the same thing you said, but instead started with something like "Yes, I'm going to elaborate here for those playing along at home..." and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

But no... again, you had to take me to task in a public thread, over something I didn't even say. So now I'm telling you about it.

Maybe next time, try a PM before you smack my paws with a ruler in front of the whole class.  :palm:

mnem
 :horse:

« Last Edit: October 10, 2020, 05:15:05 pm by mnementh »
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Offline Specmaster

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #71716 on: October 10, 2020, 05:12:10 pm »
Caps are all new. Caught it red handed!

Pink link is regulator output. Yellow line is regulator input. It just suddenly starts sinking a fuck load more current which causes the regulator to drop out.



No event is tied to this other than time. Going to be a bastard to find that!

Does it have tants!  ;D
Haha, just what I was going to say.
Who let Murphy in?

Brymen-Fluke-HP-Thurlby-Thander-Tek-Extech-Black Star-GW-Avo-Kyoritsu-Amprobe-ITT-Robin-TTi
 
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Offline factory

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #71717 on: October 10, 2020, 05:31:11 pm »
Caps are all new. Caught it red handed!

Pink link is regulator output. Yellow line is regulator input. It just suddenly starts sinking a fuck load more current which causes the regulator to drop out.



No event is tied to this other than time. Going to be a bastard to find that!

shoot...its more then 2 sharks.... :-DD :-DD

But the ripple frequency halves - do you have a dodgy rectifier diode?

Or a dry joint on one or more of the rectifier diodes?

David
« Last Edit: October 10, 2020, 05:33:58 pm by factory »
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #71718 on: October 10, 2020, 05:34:12 pm »
Now that’s an interesting hypothesis! I will check that. Good spot.
 

Offline tonyalbus

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #71719 on: October 10, 2020, 05:36:22 pm »
who lets the sharks out ...Whoo!, Whoo!
i am sorry for the sharks if you fix that one  :-DD
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Offline bd139

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #71720 on: October 10, 2020, 05:49:24 pm »
Ok just reflowed the bridge rectifier and it still does it after 2 minutes. I think the bridge was fecked by the rancid old caps that were on it before. I will order another one. Annoyingly I don’t have a suitable one in stock for once!
 

Offline factory

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #71721 on: October 10, 2020, 05:54:03 pm »
It was worth a try, this was a common failure mode with stuff at work using individual diodes that were running hot. Dry joints inside a custom potted transformer was a rarer failure and yes I had to repair them as we couldn't get replacements.
Does the Hameg use a bridge rectifier block like the one in the HP 1740A scope Dave had intermittent problems with?

David
« Last Edit: October 10, 2020, 05:56:45 pm by factory »
 

Offline med6753

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #71722 on: October 10, 2020, 06:04:24 pm »
Today is good example of why us locals can't wait for the tourists and leaf peepers to go home. This is Minnewaska State Park and that picture is exactly how the trees look now. The park is absolutely over run today. Police have been up there all day ticketing illegal parking and in some cases towing cars. Earlier there was a 3 car accident on that Route 44 which shut it down completely for over an hour which made traffic at total clusterfuck. The map is deceiving. That road going up there is about a 5% grade and yes, that is a hair pin or "switchback" turn at 5 MPH which for some reason some driver's have trouble making and either go over the side or crash into a rock wall.


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Offline tautech

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #71723 on: October 10, 2020, 06:06:21 pm »
@tautech  budget wise(value for money)...(i don't go above 1,2 Ghz)   SSA3015X-plus or SSA3021X or wait longer to have money for a SSA3021X-PLUS ?
i now have money for none of them, but an expert opinion?
SSA3015X Plus = SVA1015X minus VNA capability. (Bit lower spec'ed than 2.1 GHz models)
SSA3021X Plus = same HW as SSA3032X Plus and SVA1032X

If Hackability is your interest ......SSA3021X Plus any day ! $ 1295 vs $ 1595
Many now have converted SSA3021X Plus to SVA1032X however it it not a piss simple hack unless you're confident and capable with Telnet and Linux......I'm not.  :(

Genuine SVA1032X here and one of my treasured bits of gear.  ;D
Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
Some stuff seen @ Siglent HQ cannot be shared.
 
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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #71724 on: October 10, 2020, 06:13:13 pm »
Today is good example of why us locals can't wait for the tourists and leaf peepers to go home. This is Minnewaska State Park and that picture is exactly how the trees look now. The park is absolutely over run today. Police have been up there all day ticketing illegal parking and in some cases towing cars. Earlier there was a 3 car accident on that Route 44 which shut it down completely for over an hour which made traffic at total clusterfuck. The map is deceiving. That road going up there is about a 5% grade and yes, that is a hair pin or "switchback" turn at 5 MPH which for some reason some driver's have trouble making and either go over the side or crash into a rock wall.



How far away from the park do you live, it sure looks really nice countryside  :-+
Who let Murphy in?

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