Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[med6753]

You mean this thing here?

Drool. But I'm good. 

[factory]

Ok found a unicorn on ebay. It's a very complicated and broken unicorn with three legs and half a horn but I'll fix that on arrival if no one else finds the auction or is less cheap than me. 

Very complicated, broken & a unicorn in the UK, wouldn't be something like a HP 5360A computing counter would it?

David

You mean this thing here?

Yes, that's the one, I don't have one yet & haven't seen one in the UK for many many years, someone on here has already warned me they are very very unreliable.

David

Edit: here is the last one I saw for sale in the UK;

[SilverSolder]

Yep, totally agree, I remember when I tried it I found that some footprints didn’t look right either and bore zero resemblance to the actual item so I gave up, didn’t have time to attempt learning how to correct them.

Yeah I'm just redesigning them from scratch rather than correcting. Focusing on reasonable pad sizes for hand soldering, single/double sided boards without PTH, toner transfer, 0.1 grid system and my standard parts library.

Test rig - bit of stripboard underneath it

How do you make the holes in the paper so neat! 

[factory]

You mean this thing here?

Drool. But I'm good. 

The 20MHz ancestor to that 5248L just arrived here yesterday  , cost me way too much, but they were already extinct over here in the UK (no thanks to that timepiece butcherer from Stafford). 

David

P.S. How do I shrink that linked URL picture?
Edit: figured it out, copy the picture location from the quoted post, then paste it using the [img width=300] etc. stuff as before.

[Specmaster]

Not sure if I'll be on Discord later today. Going to start painting this morning and if I'm at a point where I can stop I'll be on. You don't fully realize how much crap you have until you have to move it. 

Amen to that as well, I'd sure hate to have to move again any time soon 

[bd139]

Yep, totally agree, I remember when I tried it I found that some footprints didn’t look right either and bore zero resemblance to the actual item so I gave up, didn’t have time to attempt learning how to correct them.

Yeah I'm just redesigning them from scratch rather than correcting. Focusing on reasonable pad sizes for hand soldering, single/double sided boards without PTH, toner transfer, 0.1 grid system and my standard parts library.

Test rig - bit of stripboard underneath it

How do you make the holes in the paper so neat! 

There’s stripboard taped to the back. Makes it easier 

Well the HM605 just shat its power supply by the looks ffs. Getting trace noise that looks like something is wonky in it.

[SilverSolder]

Yep, totally agree, I remember when I tried it I found that some footprints didn’t look right either and bore zero resemblance to the actual item so I gave up, didn’t have time to attempt learning how to correct them.

Yeah I'm just redesigning them from scratch rather than correcting. Focusing on reasonable pad sizes for hand soldering, single/double sided boards without PTH, toner transfer, 0.1 grid system and my standard parts library.

Test rig - bit of stripboard underneath it

How do you make the holes in the paper so neat! 

There’s stripboard taped to the back. Makes it easier 

Well the HM605 just shat its power supply by the looks ffs. Getting trace noise that looks like something is wonky in it.

That is a really cool method - imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, hope you feel flattered next time I do a little PCB! 

[bd139]

Both channels when grounded. 100% triggerable! 

[mnementh]

Yeah, that I can totally get... there is very little marketing involved in the production of the sensor heads or the thermistor mount; they're not very exciting. The meter itself is where marketing comes in, so every once in a while a more modern-looking model has to happen.

Where I got on the wrong side of this conversation was the prehistoric analog meter still being kept in stock at HPAK; that's what I was originally talking about, not the thermistor/mount as a separate entity (even tho, as I understand it, the mount and thermistor can actually be used by themselves).

I still suspect the old meter lingers there because TPTB know there is/are some large money customer(s) (be it military, manufacturing, scientific or calibration labs) that still have some need for that particular model. And I still suspect that reason is some standards document (maybe internal, maybe external) that is ultimately referred to again and again in which that meter is a requisite. Or maybe they keep it around because it is used to calibrate/validate subsequent models, and they have enough NOS to be able to offer some for sale to calibration labs etc, I dunno. 

But it makes no sense for them to spend the money keeping track of the damn things for 5+ decades if someone who makes these decisions didn't expect to recoup it from somewhere; I mean, FFS, the things outlived that crazy bitch and the HP television years...

mnem
 

Analog meters still have their place. They are much easier to use and much more accurate in making fine adjustments such as when aligning RF gear than a digital bargraph or display. Much easier to spot peaks and trends. Any RF tech worth his salt will have analog meters on hand including the lowly VTVM.

You and I and most of the old buzzards in here know that.

But that's because we know how to use a analog meter because we grew up with them. I bet one in a thousand of the current crop of *ahem* "EEs" groks that in any significant way. And less than one in a thousand of THEM are going to be willing/able to sell that to their pointy-haired boss. 

They're just going to get the single-purpose specialized test set for whatever application they're working on; or trust what they see on the screen of their half-million dollar DSO/MSO and use that for their "certifications".

Case in point... go to the FCC website and pick a few random FCC "certifications" for some pieces of gear that emit RF, either accidentally or on purpose. Look at the test setups used for validation. All are painstakingly well-documented, but the actual test setups are often utterly cringeworthy; enough to make a real EE from our generation cry. And I ain't claiming to be one; while I may cling to the fact of having held the title a few times, I'm at best a jackleg EE with just enough knowledge to grok how little I actually know. Even I cringe at some of what I've seen there.

mnem

[mnementh]

Yep, totally agree, I remember when I tried it I found that some footprints didn’t look right either and bore zero resemblance to the actual item so I gave up, didn’t have time to attempt learning how to correct them.

Congratulations! This was your posting #10000!        

Is that your way of telling Spec to "Get a life"...? 

mnem
Okay... so what's my excuse...? 

[tonyalbus]

You mean this thing here?

Drool. But I'm good. 

and if you didn't notice... it seems it can fly..... it is hoovering...

[mnementh]

WARNING!!! TRIGGER IMAGERY FOLLOWS!!!

mnem
 

[med6753]

Both channels when grounded. 100% triggerable! 

WTF?  I thought you said Hameg's were good scopes? 

[factory]

WARNING!!! TRIGGER IMAGERY FOLLOWS!!!

mnem
 

Teardowns here;
https://pmanning.smugmug.com/Electronics/HP-5360A-Computing-Counter/
And here:
https://dopecc.net/calculators/hp/5360a/photo/

David

[mnementh]

Yeah, that I can totally get... there is very little marketing involved in the production of the sensor heads or the thermistor mount; they're not very exciting. The meter itself is where marketing comes in, so every once in a while a more modern-looking model has to happen.

Where I got on the wrong side of this conversation was the prehistoric analog meter still being kept in stock at HPAK; that's what I was originally talking about, not the thermistor/mount as a separate entity (even tho, as I understand it, the mount and thermistor can actually be used by themselves).

I still suspect the old meter lingers there because TPTB know there is/are some large money customer(s) (be it military, manufacturing, scientific or calibration labs) that still have some need for that particular model. And I still suspect that reason is some standards document (maybe internal, maybe external) that is ultimately referred to again and again in which that meter is a requisite. Or maybe they keep it around because it is used to calibrate/validate subsequent models, and they have enough NOS to be able to offer some for sale to calibration labs etc, I dunno. 

But it makes no sense for them to spend the money keeping track of the damn things for 5+ decades if someone who makes these decisions didn't expect to recoup it from somewhere; I mean, FFS, the things outlived that crazy bitch and the HP television years...

mnem
 

But it makes no sense for them to spend the money keeping track of the damn things for 5+ decades if someone who makes these decisions didn't expect to recoup it from somewhere; I mean, FFS, the things outlived that crazy bitch and the HP television years...

mnem
 

Why would they bother to keep manufacturing it (the sensor)? Well, why not if it is good enough and there's a demand? It's surely more expensive to cut a new design and qualify that than to "keep track" as you put it, of an old design. This is all custom manufacture, there's no parts obsolescence to deal with.

The metering bit has been replaced (in 2011), 432A obsoleted and the N432A substituted for it.

RF power measurements aren't particularly high precision or high accuracy by their nature, that they're typically measured and specified on a dB scale gives a clue to that - so an analogue meter is probably always going to be 'good enough'.  There's no driving need for a new shiny more accurate or more precise meter - except perhaps the perception by some that a 'digital' meter is somehow more accurate than an 'analogue' one. The need to make automated measurements that one obviously can't with an analogue device would be a sane requirement, and that seems to have now been taken care of with the retirement of the 432A and the introduction of the new shiny digital N432A. The accuracy of the new shiny digital version is 0.1% ±5uW, which makes the 6¹/₂ digit ADC on it ever so slightly overkill. I suspect that the fact that it looks like one of the TrueVolt DVM range is no accident, but without schematics I can't prove my suspicion that it's a 34461 DVM with the input circuitry ripped out and replaced with interfacing to the power sensor.

As to the core measurement technology - a thermistor oven and a balancing bridge. That's probably going to be good enough for its purposes forever. The thermistor bit is easily characterised against primary standards. The bridge as a measurement technique is good enough that it's still being used as the core of measurement of some primary standards to stupid levels of precision.

Dude... come on. I stated very clearly in that very post that I was talking about the prehistoric analog meter. Obviously on some level you recognized that; or you wouldn't have omitted that part of the post. Hence, this entire point is well... pointless. 

And if you weren't sure, it should be obvious that I understand PRECISELY the point you are making here, because I stated the same thing in this post which precedes the one above:

So even HP hasn't come up with anything better in the 60+ years since it was released? What device is specified as the standard by which this device is validated? Bet it's another one of the same, isn't it...?

Also; are we talking about the meter here, or the mount and thermistor? The mount/thermistor I can see; there's no need for that to change, for the same reason the 84xx series sensors remain relevant. The meter itself...? come on; they have to have come up with something better by now.

mnem
 

mnem
 

[bd139]

Both channels when grounded. 100% triggerable! 

Damn 12v rail is dropping out. See attachment.

And you know what? Power cycled it to attach some probes and the damn thing is working properly now 

[med6753]

You and I and most of the old buzzards in here know that.

But that's because we know how to use a analog meter because we grew up with them. I bet one in a thousand of the current crop of *ahem* "EEs" groks that in any significant way. And less than one in a thousand of THEM are going to be willing/able to sell that to their pointy-haired boss. 

They're just going to get the single-purpose specialized test set for whatever application they're working on; or trust what they see on the screen of their half-million dollar DSO/MSO and use that for their "certifications".

Case in point... go to the FCC website and pick a few random FCC "certifications" for some pieces of gear that emit RF, either accidentally or on purpose. Look at the test setups used for validation. All are painstakingly well-documented, but the actual test setups are often utterly cringeworthy; enough to make a real EE from our generation cry. And I ain't claiming to be one; while I may cling to the fact of having held the title a few times, I'm at best a jackleg EE with just enough knowledge to grok how little I actually know. Even I cringe at some of what I've seen there.

mnem

Taking a break, waiting for a coat of paint to dry before applying a 2nd coat.

The Fluke 87 is an absolutely wonderful instrument. But it's bargraph is worse than useless. I've tried, several times, to use it to align IF cans on receivers and it just doesn't cut. It jumps around then suddenly changes ranges and you have no idea where you are. Break out the VTVM on low AC volts and presto, done in 2 minutes. 

[Specmaster]

Yep, totally agree, I remember when I tried it I found that some footprints didn’t look right either and bore zero resemblance to the actual item so I gave up, didn’t have time to attempt learning how to correct them.

Congratulations! This was your posting #10000!        

Is that your way of telling Spec to "Get a life"...? 

mnem
Okay... so what's my excuse...? 

If thats true, then bd is well up the creek then 

[tonyalbus]

@tautech  budget wise(value for money)...(i don't go above 1,2 Ghz)   SSA3015X-plus or SSA3021X or wait longer to have money for a SSA3021X-PLUS ?
i now have money for none of them, but an expert opinion?

[med6753]

Both channels when grounded. 100% triggerable! 

Damn 12v rail is dropping out. See attachment.

And you know what? Power cycled it to attach some probes and the damn thing is working properly now 

It might help a bit if you turn the Siglent right side up. 

The Hameg.....sounds like a new regulator and re-cap is called for.

[Specmaster]

You and I and most of the old buzzards in here know that.

But that's because we know how to use a analog meter because we grew up with them. I bet one in a thousand of the current crop of *ahem* "EEs" groks that in any significant way. And less than one in a thousand of THEM are going to be willing/able to sell that to their pointy-haired boss. 

They're just going to get the single-purpose specialized test set for whatever application they're working on; or trust what they see on the screen of their half-million dollar DSO/MSO and use that for their "certifications".

Case in point... go to the FCC website and pick a few random FCC "certifications" for some pieces of gear that emit RF, either accidentally or on purpose. Look at the test setups used for validation. All are painstakingly well-documented, but the actual test setups are often utterly cringeworthy; enough to make a real EE from our generation cry. And I ain't claiming to be one; while I may cling to the fact of having held the title a few times, I'm at best a jackleg EE with just enough knowledge to grok how little I actually know. Even I cringe at some of what I've seen there.

mnem

Taking a break, waiting for a coat of paint to dry before applying a 2nd coat.

The Fluke 87 is an absolutely wonderful instrument. But it's bargraph is worse than useless. I've tried, several times, to use it to align IF cans on receivers and it just doesn't cut. It jumps around then suddenly changes ranges and you have no idea where you are. Break out the VTVM on low AC volts and presto, done in 2 minutes. 

That makes you and I a member of "Old Buzzards" club then, Thats why I have so many of the old analogue meters, they still have their uses and for spotting trends there is nothing finer out there.

[med6753]

and if you didn't notice... it seems it can fly..... it is hoovering...

The only way my 5248L is going to hoover is if it's suspended off a V-22 Osprey. Damn thing is freaking heavy. 

[mnementh]

You and I and most of the old buzzards in here know that.

But that's because we know how to use a analog meter because we grew up with them. I bet one in a thousand of the current crop of *ahem* "EEs" groks that in any significant way. And less than one in a thousand of THEM are going to be willing/able to sell that to their pointy-haired boss. 

They're just going to get the single-purpose specialized test set for whatever application they're working on; or trust what they see on the screen of their half-million dollar DSO/MSO and use that for their "certifications".

Case in point... go to the FCC website and pick a few random FCC "certifications" for some pieces of gear that emit RF, either accidentally or on purpose. Look at the test setups used for validation. All are painstakingly well-documented, but the actual test setups are often utterly cringeworthy; enough to make a real EE from our generation cry. And I ain't claiming to be one; while I may cling to the fact of having held the title a few times, I'm at best a jackleg EE with just enough knowledge to grok how little I actually know. Even I cringe at some of what I've seen there.

mnem

Taking a break, waiting for a coat of paint to dry before applying a 2nd coat.

The Fluke 87 is an absolutely wonderful instrument. But it's bargraph is worse than useless. I've tried, several times, to use it to align IF cans on receivers and it just doesn't cut. It jumps around then suddenly changes ranges and you have no idea where you are. Break out the VTVM on low AC volts and presto, done in 2 minutes. 

That makes you and I a member of "Old Buzzards" club then, Thats why I have so many of the old analogue meters, they still have their uses and for spotting trends there is nothing finer out there.

Guilty as charged. On all counts!

mnem
 

[med6753]

Absolutely. 

[Specmaster]

So thats three members so far, who else is in the old buzzards club?