Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[mnementh]

@tautech - Oh, come on... SMPS are in everything. I suppose I should chunk all my 2465s because of that too.     Now if it's a bad implementation, sure. But that's true of every bit of test gear ever made.

mnem
 

This ^^^ and how do we know if it's good or not ? 
Detailed analysis is required .....do you wanna do it ?

Another Yaigol thread in the making ? 

Nahhh... I'd be more inclined to use the stoopit thing until it failed to do the job.  Then, if I suspected noise, resolve it with either lots of tin or a decent linear PSU. I'm a true believer in empirical engineering.

The Yaigol thread was the one where he discovered that several linear regs in the frontend of the 10xxZeds were oscillating because of large MLCCs where should have used electrolytics, right? *trying to cudgel my memory into action*

mnem
 

[mnementh]

@bd - Thanks, that's the kind of insight I was looking for. I DID look at the teardowns. This looked like a lot of bang/buck; I was asking for constructive response, not just "It's junk". I expect it to be cheaply made; it's like the next generation of the FeelTech ARB for duck's sake. I'm not seeing anything here that I didn't see there, and the FeelTech costs only a few $$ less for much lower resolution and again, really horrible output level linearity.

Bottom line is I'm not going to spend $300-400 on a SG anytime soon. I expected it to be slightly better than the FeelTech; which really is all I need for my ESC tinkery. I figured a few bux more for a little better wasn't too bad.

For better absolute quality like bd139 was saying, I can get a WaveTek 145 for $50 from AllTest.

mnem
 

Exactly that, if you're serious stuff then something like a Siglent etc is justified, but for the sort of tinkering most hobbyists do, I see nothing wrong with that JunTek, or indeed the Feeltech units, cheap and cheerful, just like the TinySA etc. I have a DSO138 2.4" scope, which for rough and ready signal tracing in audio gear is perfectly OK and helped me on many occasions. Yes I have far better scopes at my disposal, but the DSO138 is just so quick to power up and connect to, it is often used in preference to show the area of concern on amplifiers for example.

Yeah; this was where my thinking was at too. If I could get even a used DSG1032 for the $180 this costs, I'd jump on it.

OTOH, there is the flip side of the "cheap Chinesium" coin; I think the ADS5012H is not near as good a bang/buck at ~CAD$100 as that DSO138 is at $20 even tho it's only rated at 1/10th the Hz... just because the DSO138 actually triggers properly within its limited capabilities. 

mnem
Wiggly lines in a wire are making my braims hurt.

[tautech]

The Yaigol thread was the one where he discovered that several linear regs in the frontend of the 10xxZeds were oscillating because of large MLCCs where should have used electrolytics, right? *trying to cudgel my memory into action*

mnem
 

Nope, all about correct SMPS implementation is DS2k models and excessively high ripples as they weren't done right.

Makes for an interesting study and read. 

[med6753]

Got an offer, Tek 465B at $40, cosmetically flawless but complete dead, never opened nor repaired, worth the risk ?

$40? No brainer. Go for it. Both bd and myself can help you fix it if you get stuck.

Edit.....most likely a shorted tant holding down one of the supply voltages.

@Med, bd and other 465B aficionados, the seller is acting up and raises the price. 

Currently I'm on business travel and out of town, while the seller is about 30 minutes from my current location, and all communication, bargaining was thru Whatsapp, so I only can touch this thing when the deal is done, and I will visit him and grab it physically and ship it home my self.

As the price change, I ask the seller to open it up at take pictures, under my threat that he must put all screws back, even one missing means no deal.     

As the price increased now to 70 bucks, again, its completely dead, is it still worth the risk ?

Photos from seller attached below.

I know I'm late to game on this but let me make sure I understand this.

He advert's the 465B at $40. You show interest and now the price is $70? What kind of bullshit is that?  A teaser rate to get interest then as soon as someone responds raise the price? I'd tell him to stuff it, sideways.  It's $40 as advertised or no deal.

Now truth be told $70, while high for a dead 465B, is not outrageous but he said $40. Hold him to it. 

And yes, the A Trigger knob is busted. They always get slammed and broken or the shaft gets bent. I should have a replacement knob in my stash if you decide to go for it. 
 

[med6753]

The speed of light can't hold a candle to this thread.  Took a while but I think I'm caught up. 

[Wolfgang]

Got an offer, Tek 465B at $40, cosmetically flawless but complete dead, never opened nor repaired, worth the risk ?

$40? No brainer. Go for it. Both bd and myself can help you fix it if you get stuck.

Edit.....most likely a shorted tant holding down one of the supply voltages.

@Med, bd and other 465B aficionados, the seller is acting up and raises the price. 

Currently I'm on business travel and out of town, while the seller is about 30 minutes from my current location, and all communication, bargaining was thru Whatsapp, so I only can touch this thing when the deal is done, and I will visit him and grab it physically and ship it home my self.

As the price change, I ask the seller to open it up at take pictures, under my threat that he must put all screws back, even one missing means no deal.     

As the price increased now to 70 bucks, again, its completely dead, is it still worth the risk ?

Photos from seller attached below.

I know I'm late to game on this but let me make sure I understand this.

He advert's the 465B at $40. You show interest and now the price is $70? What kind of bullshit is that?  A teaser rate to get interest then as soon as someone responds raise the price? I'd tell him to stuff it, sideways.  It's $40 as advertised or no deal.

Now truth be told $70, while high for a dead 465B, is not outrageous but he said $40. Hold him to it. 

And yes, the A Trigger knob is busted. They always get slammed and broken or the shaft gets bent. I should have a replacement knob in my stash if you decide to go for it.

All this rotten Tek465 stuff is part of a conspiracy to prevent otherwise productive engineers from doing something useful.
Who is behind that ? The pope ? The wise men of Zion ? Monty Python and the holy grail ? Corona ? And who would ever use all these scopes that are now repaired but still hopelessly obsolete ?

Clueless ...

[mnementh]

The Yaigol thread was the one where he discovered that several linear regs in the frontend of the 10xxZeds were oscillating because of large MLCCs where should have used electrolytics, right? *trying to cudgel my memory into action*

mnem
 

Nope, all about correct SMPS implementation is DS2k models and excessively high ripples as they weren't done right.

Makes for an interesting study and read. 

Nope... not just that. Some 1117 LDOs, including one providing power to the PLL IC were oscillating because of incorrect application of MMLCCs across the outputs. Right in Part 3. Other users confirmed that the 1054Zed ALSO suffered/suffers this design flaw.

mnem
 

[Kosmic]

@bd - Thanks, that's the kind of insight I was looking for. I DID look at the teardowns. This looked like a lot of bang/buck; I was asking for constructive response, not just "It's junk". I expect it to be cheaply made; it's like the next generation of the FeelTech ARB for duck's sake. I'm not seeing anything here that I didn't see there, and the FeelTech costs only a few $$ less for much lower resolution and again, really horrible output level linearity.

Bottom line is I'm not going to spend $300-400 on a SG anytime soon. I expected it to be slightly better than the FeelTech; which really is all I need for my ESC tinkery. I figured a few bux more for a little better wasn't too bad.

For better absolute quality like bd139 was saying, I can get a WaveTek 145 for $50 from AllTest.

mnem
 

Exactly that, if you're serious stuff then something like a Siglent etc is justified, but for the sort of tinkering most hobbyists do, I see nothing wrong with that JunTek, or indeed the Feeltech units, cheap and cheerful, just like the TinySA etc. I have a DSO138 2.4" scope, which for rough and ready signal tracing in audio gear is perfectly OK and helped me on many occasions. Yes I have far better scopes at my disposal, but the DSO138 is just so quick to power up and connect to, it is often used in preference to show the area of concern on amplifiers for example.

I don't know, the TinyVNA and TinySA are working well and are well designed. You wouldn't try to fix them because they accomplish their intended purpose adequately.

Now the problem with the Feeltech and Juntek is that they are full of flaws. At some point you will discover that they are not working properly and you will spend a lot of times and money trying to fix them.

As for Siglent and Rigol, they are mostly catering to hobbyists. They are getting a lot better though and will soon be able to challenge the big one.

[mnementh]

...All this rotten Tek465 stuff is part of a conspiracy to prevent otherwise productive engineers from doing something useful.
Who is behind that ? The pope ? The wise men of Zion ? Monty Python and the holy grail ? Corona ? And who would ever use all these scopes that are now repaired but still hopelessly obsolete ?

Clueless ...

There, there Wolfgang... Here you go buddy, distract yourself with some HP DSO goodness for a pittance (okay; two pittances  ):

eBay auction: #292789061475

eBay auction: #302934810504

mnem
 

[Cerebus]

The speed of light can't hold a candle to this thread.  Took a while but I think I'm caught up. 

I think you just Heisenberged yourself. Either you know how fast you're going through the thread, or you know where you are in it. You can't know both.

[mnementh]

http://dresdencodak.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/2006-08-30-traversing_the_luminiferous_aether.jpg

mnem
 

[Wolfgang]

...All this rotten Tek465 stuff is part of a conspiracy to prevent otherwise productive engineers from doing something useful.
Who is behind that ? The pope ? The wise men of Zion ? Monty Python and the holy grail ? Corona ? And who would ever use all these scopes that are now repaired but still hopelessly obsolete ?

Clueless ...

There, there Wolfgang... Here you go buddy, distract yourself with some HP DSO goodness for a pittance (okay; two pittances  ):

eBay auction: #292789061475

eBay auction: #302934810504

mnem
 

Same category of disease. Dont forget Hameg, too. All junk not worth a repair. Not built to last. All parts of the conspiracy 

[med6753]

The speed of light can't hold a candle to this thread.  Took a while but I think I'm caught up. 

I think you just Heisenberged yourself. Either you know how fast you're going through the thread, or you know where you are in it. You can't know both.

I have arrived. I have not arrived. I have departed. I am standing still. All depends upon your perspective.

[mnementh]

...All this rotten Tek465 stuff is part of a conspiracy to prevent otherwise productive engineers from doing something useful.
Who is behind that ? The pope ? The wise men of Zion ? Monty Python and the holy grail ? Corona ? And who would ever use all these scopes that are now repaired but still hopelessly obsolete ?

Clueless ...

There, there Wolfgang... Here you go buddy, distract yourself with some HP DSO goodness for a pittance (okay; two pittances  ):

eBay auction: #292789061475

eBay auction: #302934810504

mnem
 

Same category of disease. Dont forget Hameg, too. All junk not worth a repair. Not built to last. All parts of the conspiracy 

Okay... now I know you're just agitatin'. Either that, or you're lookin' to terrorize someone into sellin' somethin' cheap.   

mnem
 

[Specmaster]

...All this rotten Tek465 stuff is part of a conspiracy to prevent otherwise productive engineers from doing something useful.
Who is behind that ? The pope ? The wise men of Zion ? Monty Python and the holy grail ? Corona ? And who would ever use all these scopes that are now repaired but still hopelessly obsolete ?

Clueless ...

There, there Wolfgang... Here you go buddy, distract yourself with some HP DSO goodness for a pittance (okay; two pittances  ):

eBay auction: #292789061475

eBay auction: #302934810504

mnem
 

Same category of disease. Dont forget Hameg, too. All junk not worth a repair. Not built to last. All parts of the conspiracy 

Oh come on now, you must be joking, of course they are well worth repair and most certainly are built to last. I'll be amazed if there are many of the current crop of DSO or MSO's around still in working order in 20 years time, unlike Tek 465B's and Hamegs etc of that era. Tek 465B was introduced in 1980, 40 years ago and there are many examples of these scopes in daily use today, still doing a great job of work. It is not a requirement for all scopes to be capable of going upto the GHz band, or be able to operate as a SA etc etc. For many applications 20MHz can be too much BW even.

I expect that in a lot of cases, people who have some of these more advanced scopes, don't actually need them at all, but have them as bragging rights in much the same way as some people buy fast cars and hardly ever leave the boundaries of a large city, where the car is limited in speed by the car in front.

[Wolfgang]

...All this rotten Tek465 stuff is part of a conspiracy to prevent otherwise productive engineers from doing something useful.
Who is behind that ? The pope ? The wise men of Zion ? Monty Python and the holy grail ? Corona ? And who would ever use all these scopes that are now repaired but still hopelessly obsolete ?

Clueless ...

There, there Wolfgang... Here you go buddy, distract yourself with some HP DSO goodness for a pittance (okay; two pittances  ):

eBay auction: #292789061475

eBay auction: #302934810504

mnem
 

Same category of disease. Dont forget Hameg, too. All junk not worth a repair. Not built to last. All parts of the conspiracy 

Oh come on now, you must be joking, of course they are well worth repair and most certainly are built to last. I'll be amazed if there are many of the current crop of DSO or MSO's around still in working order in 20 years time, unlike Tek 465B's and Hamegs etc of that era. Tek 465B was introduced in 1980, 40 years ago and there are many examples of these scopes in daily use today, still doing a great job of work. It is not a requirement for all scopes to be capable of going upto the GHz band, or be able to operate as a SA etc etc. For many applications 20MHz can be too much BW even.

I expect that in a lot of cases, people who have some of these more advanced scopes, don't actually need them at all, but have them as bragging rights in much the same way as some people buy fast cars and hardly ever leave the boundaries of a large city, where the car is limited in speed by the car in front.

Well, I learned the hard way. I still have TEKs, and they never needed repair so far. The good old 7104 I sold for a new Tek, fine too.
The "compact" Teks 465 ... are so cramped and full of tants and unobtainium ICs that repair can easily become a nightmare. Same for HPs or Hameg. I once tried to repair a HM740 with a killed FET input stage. The bastards connected their PCBs by edge-soldering them together !
Yuck. Next, I decided not to repair this pile of crap. I bought some Rigol 1054Z as my swiss knife low profile scope. None of them ever gave up.
For better stuff, I use a Tek MSO4104 and for extremely fast stuff a 6GHz Keysight S-Series. Regarding functionality, the dirt cheapo Rigols outperform any old stuff I had. 100MHz BW, 1mV, enough memory, 4 channels, all kinds of trigger gadgets, SCPI programmability (I need that for routine tasks), math functions (no I dont mean FFT), very little desk space, ... all for free, and by far good enough for routine stuff. Total expense 400€. How long can you repair for this ? And is it worth it ? What can the old compact Teks do that a modern el-cheapo scope cannot ?

[Fungus]

Another Yaigol thread in the making ? 

With all the bugs/problems being reported on Siglents lately I'd be leaning more towards a Yiglent thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg3188828/#msg3188828

Have we forgotten the little bags of capacitors so soon?

[med6753]

...All this rotten Tek465 stuff is part of a conspiracy to prevent otherwise productive engineers from doing something useful.
Who is behind that ? The pope ? The wise men of Zion ? Monty Python and the holy grail ? Corona ? And who would ever use all these scopes that are now repaired but still hopelessly obsolete ?

Clueless ...

There, there Wolfgang... Here you go buddy, distract yourself with some HP DSO goodness for a pittance (okay; two pittances  ):

eBay auction: #292789061475

eBay auction: #302934810504

mnem
 

Same category of disease. Dont forget Hameg, too. All junk not worth a repair. Not built to last. All parts of the conspiracy 

Oh come on now, you must be joking, of course they are well worth repair and most certainly are built to last. I'll be amazed if there are many of the current crop of DSO or MSO's around still in working order in 20 years time, unlike Tek 465B's and Hamegs etc of that era. Tek 465B was introduced in 1980, 40 years ago and there are many examples of these scopes in daily use today, still doing a great job of work. It is not a requirement for all scopes to be capable of going upto the GHz band, or be able to operate as a SA etc etc. For many applications 20MHz can be too much BW even.

I expect that in a lot of cases, people who have some of these more advanced scopes, don't actually need them at all, but have them as bragging rights in much the same way as some people buy fast cars and hardly ever leave the boundaries of a large city, where the car is limited in speed by the car in front.

Well, I learned the hard way. I still have TEKs, and they never needed repair so far. The good old 7104 I sold for a new Tek, fine too.
The "compact" Teks 465 ... are so cramped and full of tants and unobtainium ICs that repair can easily become a nightmare. Same for HPs or Hameg. I once tried to repair a HM740 with a killed FET input stage. The bastards connected their PCBs by edge-soldering them together !
Yuck. Next, I decided not to repair this pile of crap. I bought some Rigol 1054Z as my swiss knife low profile scope. None of them ever gave up.
For better stuff, I use a Tek MSO4104 and for extremely fast stuff a 6GHz Keysight S-Series. Regarding functionality, the dirt cheapo Rigols outperform any old stuff I had. 100MHz BW, 1mV, enough memory, 4 channels, all kinds of trigger gadgets, SCPI programmability (I need that for routine tasks), math functions (no I dont mean FFT), very little desk space, ... all for free, and by far good enough for routine stuff. Total expense 400€. How long can you repair for this ? And is it worth it ? What can the old compact Teks do that a modern el-cheapo scope cannot ?

Have you been drinking a bad batch of beer or something?  Is it even possible to have a "bad batch" of German beer? 

Regardless, go sleep it off and tomorrow I'm sure you'll have your sanity back. Although your head may hurt a little. 

[bd139]

Another Yaigol thread in the making ? 

With all the bugs/problems being reported on Siglents lately I'd be leaning more towards a Yiglent thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg3188828/#msg3188828

Have we forgotten the little bags of capacitors so soon?

That’s actually why I waited so long to buy one. In fact I tend to wait at least 2 years after something comes out from China before I touch it unless it’s really really cheap.

[BravoV]

Got an offer, Tek 465B at $40, cosmetically flawless but complete dead, never opened nor repaired, worth the risk ?

$40? No brainer. Go for it. Both bd and myself can help you fix it if you get stuck.

Edit.....most likely a shorted tant holding down one of the supply voltages.

@Med, bd and other 465B aficionados, the seller is acting up and raises the price. 

Currently I'm on business travel and out of town, while the seller is about 30 minutes from my current location, and all communication, bargaining was thru Whatsapp, so I only can touch this thing when the deal is done, and I will visit him and grab it physically and ship it home my self.

As the price change, I ask the seller to open it up at take pictures, under my threat that he must put all screws back, even one missing means no deal.     

As the price increased now to 70 bucks, again, its completely dead, is it still worth the risk ?

Photos from seller attached below.

I know I'm late to game on this but let me make sure I understand this.

He advert's the 465B at $40. You show interest and now the price is $70? What kind of bullshit is that?  A teaser rate to get interest then as soon as someone responds raise the price? I'd tell him to stuff it, sideways.  It's $40 as advertised or no deal.

Now truth be told $70, while high for a dead 465B, is not outrageous but he said $40. Hold him to it. 

Well, visited the seller's site, and apparently he is just an employee, and met the actual boss.

And there was minor misunderstanding, but quite fatal (no deal) if I didn't visit them, and eventually I ended up a $85 hole in my pocket  , no, it is not what you think it is, the deal went something totally different, and didn't expected it before this.

For sure, this proof that the old style face to face meeting, talking and bargaining, and abit of persuasive skill still far better that online interaction, and actually made a friend with the seller. 

Currently I'm busy arranging for the shipment, and will update with photo soon on what the hell was happening. 

And yes, the A Trigger knob is busted. They always get slammed and broken or the shaft gets bent. I should have a replacement knob in my stash if you decide to go for it.

Yes Med, I need that, please, PM me if you find it, thanks. 

[mansaxel]

Bah!

Damn -hp- and their undocumented revisions!

All the 6206B manuals I can find have a SPST mains switch. The specimen in front of me clearly has a DPST one, and some smaller changes in the mains wiring.  Thus, documented:

[bd139]

European HP inlet / switching configuration is completely different to the US one. If you look at some of the EU made power supplies they don't have neon indicators for some reason as well and the front end is wired up differently:



I've had to actually rework a couple of them because they shipped with the neon disconnected at the factory.

Yes even HP had Friday afternoon builds 

[Specmaster]

Well, I learned the hard way. I still have TEKs, and they never needed repair so far. The good old 7104 I sold for a new Tek, fine too.
The "compact" Teks 465 ... are so cramped and full of tants and unobtainium ICs that repair can easily become a nightmare. Same for HPs or Hameg. I once tried to repair a HM740 with a killed FET input stage. The bastards connected their PCBs by edge-soldering them together !
Yuck. Next, I decided not to repair this pile of crap. I bought some Rigol 1054Z as my swiss knife low profile scope. None of them ever gave up.
For better stuff, I use a Tek MSO4104 and for extremely fast stuff a 6GHz Keysight S-Series. Regarding functionality, the dirt cheapo Rigols outperform any old stuff I had. 100MHz BW, 1mV, enough memory, 4 channels, all kinds of trigger gadgets, SCPI programmability (I need that for routine tasks), math functions (no I dont mean FFT), very little desk space, ... all for free, and by far good enough for routine stuff. Total expense 400€. How long can you repair for this ? And is it worth it ? What can the old compact Teks do that a modern el-cheapo scope cannot ?

You are clearly not thinking straight at all here, nobody is claiming that new modern scopes aren't more capable are they  There are many people who would love to have a 6HHz Keysite S-series scope on their bench that they can use, but the real truth is that not many can either afford such luxury, can justify it's expense, or they understand that they don't realistically needs its superior power, its bandwidth or its feature set.

If you spend all your time driving in a city are you really going to buy yourself a 200mph Bugatti Veyron when the best speed you can hope to achieve is 40mph?

[mansaxel]

European HP inlet / switching configuration is completely different to the US one.

Yabbut this one is made and used in the USA, date code some time in 1984, AFAICT, and it probably did not leave the continent until GSP kicked it out of the door in Erlanger two weeks ago.

The very reason I've spent so much time staring at the mains side of the circuit (which is partially on-PCB, BTW) is because I don't want to blow things up by bodging the conversion from toy mains to Real Mains. Now, I've got a good enough understanding of where to modify the PCB, and how.

[URI]

...All this rotten Tek465 stuff is part of a conspiracy to prevent otherwise productive engineers from doing something useful.
Who is behind that ? The pope ? The wise men of Zion ? Monty Python and the holy grail ? Corona ? And who would ever use all these scopes that are now repaired but still hopelessly obsolete ?

Clueless ...

There, there Wolfgang... Here you go buddy, distract yourself with some HP DSO goodness for a pittance (okay; two pittances  ):

eBay auction: #292789061475

eBay auction: #302934810504

mnem
 

Same category of disease. Dont forget Hameg, too. All junk not worth a repair. Not built to last. All parts of the conspiracy 

Oh come on now, you must be joking, of course they are well worth repair and most certainly are built to last. I'll be amazed if there are many of the current crop of DSO or MSO's around still in working order in 20 years time, unlike Tek 465B's and Hamegs etc of that era. Tek 465B was introduced in 1980, 40 years ago and there are many examples of these scopes in daily use today, still doing a great job of work. It is not a requirement for all scopes to be capable of going upto the GHz band, or be able to operate as a SA etc etc. For many applications 20MHz can be too much BW even.

I expect that in a lot of cases, people who have some of these more advanced scopes, don't actually need them at all, but have them as bragging rights in much the same way as some people buy fast cars and hardly ever leave the boundaries of a large city, where the car is limited in speed by the car in front.

Well, I learned the hard way. I still have TEKs, and they never needed repair so far. The good old 7104 I sold for a new Tek, fine too.
The "compact" Teks 465 ... are so cramped and full of tants and unobtainium ICs that repair can easily become a nightmare. Same for HPs or Hameg. I once tried to repair a HM740 with a killed FET input stage. The bastards connected their PCBs by edge-soldering them together !
Yuck. Next, I decided not to repair this pile of crap. I bought some Rigol 1054Z as my swiss knife low profile scope. None of them ever gave up.
For better stuff, I use a Tek MSO4104 and for extremely fast stuff a 6GHz Keysight S-Series. Regarding functionality, the dirt cheapo Rigols outperform any old stuff I had. 100MHz BW, 1mV, enough memory, 4 channels, all kinds of trigger gadgets, SCPI programmability (I need that for routine tasks), math functions (no I dont mean FFT), very little desk space, ... all for free, and by far good enough for routine stuff. Total expense 400€. How long can you repair for this ? And is it worth it ? What can the old compact Teks do that a modern el-cheapo scope cannot ?

Have you been drinking a bad batch of beer or something?  Is it even possible to have a "bad batch" of German beer? 

Regardless, go sleep it off and tomorrow I'm sure you'll have your sanity back. Although your head may hurt a little. 

There's no bad German beer in general.   
If in doubt it is always just and only the last beer that's bad..