Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[beanflying]

Straw Poll time.

Ferrules or Bare wire into screw terminals in a mix of Low Voltage DC and Mains AC? I have never used the Round ones in the past or really seen a need for them 

Some non E types like them but I take that with a grain of salt as to good or bad. The relevent discussion is aimed at those same types of users with limited skills.

[xrunner]

The FG503 dial fix is completed. I printed the dial markings on the clear sticky laser paper flipped horizontally so they would be correct when stuck on the back of the dial. I carefully trimmed the excess material around the plastic dial with a razor blade. I also re-painted the gray center as it was worn when it arrived. I had a modelling color that was almost a perfect match - Tamiya IJN Gray (XF-77).

A couple of friends just left; one was the owner of the Kikusui scope who was here to pick it up. I asked them both to look at the FG503 to see if they could spot anything that looked "home made" on the front panel, but they couldn't. I just have to finish a few cal items and then it can be added to my set of Tektronix plug-ins.

[AVGresponding]

Straw Poll time.

Ferrules or Bare wire into screw terminals in a mix of Low Voltage DC and Mains AC? I have never used the Round ones in the past or really seen a need for them 

Some non E types like them but I take that with a grain of salt as to good or bad. The relevent discussion is aimed at those same types of users with limited skills.

Only heathens and auto electricians don't bother to use ferrules.

Technically they aren't necessary in good rising clamp terminals, but it's just good practice to always use them.

One extra reason to use them in control panels etc is it stops the cable markers from falling off easily. When you've a couple of hundred cables and they're all the same colour, that becomes an issue!   


Oh, and this is the only properly integrated DMM in a scope as far as I'm concerned 



Just one more thing, this popped up on one of my saved searches the other day, I think it was one of the Tektronix ones:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Boat-Anchor-18kg-used-in-good-condition-28in-long-22in-across-flukes/264771312761

Somebody has clearly been using pejorative phrases in their vintage test gear searches, and now ebay has picked up the habit!

[mnementh]

   

Barrier strips (and those plug-in connectors that use a similar screw-down lug) are DESIGNED to work with bare wire, and the manufacturers will tell you that is how they work BEST. I've had many conversations with engineers from the manufacturers over this; back when the argument was over tinning the wires or not.

These crimp-on ferrules that have recently become popular  are really intended for ONE purpose; to aid in PRODUCTION wiring of machinery which uses them, and to combat "stray strand" faults.

Properly wiring with barrier strips requires CARE; care in stripping the wires to the correct exposed length, care in twisting the strands neatly, care in trimming the exposed wire so it feeds neatly into the socket without stray strands. These ferrules are designed to make it so you can just shove the wire in them, crimp them and shove them in the barrier strip; if there is a stray strand, the plastic cup usually traps it so it is harmless.

They DO make it easier to eliminate stray strands by putting the work "right at hand", however they also introduce the possibility of NOT getting the bundle of strands directly under the screw, which is a potential for poor contact over the long term. The plugs above put the work "right at hand" as well; if you can't get THEM wired properly, you shouldn't be wiring anything.

Like any connection... the more layers there are, the more chance for material to "flow" under pressure, loosening the connection (this is why you should NEVER tin stranded wire before inserting it into one of these connectors), and the more chance for corrosion to begin its evil work. I prefer to use these connectors with bare wire, as the really smart people who invented them intended.

It is MY considered opinion that the "work equity" paid to a project in the form of doing the above wiring carefully and double-checking every connection before applying power is more than worthwhile over the long term; the satisfaction of knowing I did the job right and using the parts as intended by those who designed them is the immediate payoff.   

mnem
 

[med6753]

Got the Type 3B3 Time Base plug-in. It's in one piece and in pretty good shape. Deoxit'ed the switches and controls and plugged it in.

Doesn't work, there's no sweep. Oh well. It will require an extender cable to troubleshoot it like the other plug-in's. That's a follow on activity for a later date. For now this Type 561B project will be put away. I want to start on the Type 106 Square Wave Generator. The first of it's parts will arrive tomorrow.



So the plug-in's requiring toubleshooting with an extender cable are:

Type 2B67 Time Base
Type 3A6 Vertical
Type 3B3 Time Base




 

[worsthorse]

Discovered in today's mail. I am a complete sucker for a good deal on dual gate MOSFETS…

What is a good deal these days?

the rare combination of 3USD each, not appearing to be fakes, and actually working.   

Oh nice, 40673's perhaps?

Indeed, RCA 40673s.

[bd139]

You can bounce them for 10x that easy to hams 

[worsthorse]

The FG503 dial fix is completed. I printed the dial markings on the clear sticky laser paper flipped horizontally so they would be correct when stuck on the back of the dial. I carefully trimmed the excess material around the plastic dial with a razor blade. I also re-painted the gray center as it was worn when it arrived. I had a modelling color that was almost a perfect match - Tamiya IJN Gray (XF-77).

A couple of friends just left; one was the owner of the Kikusui scope who was here to pick it up. I asked them both to look at the FG503 to see if they could spot anything that looked "home made" on the front panel, but they couldn't. I just have to finish a few cal items and then it can be added to my set of Tektronix plug-ins.

Nicely done. I have to admit that I don't spend as much time detailing dials and such as you do. My plugins all look, umm, well-used.

[worsthorse]

You can bounce them for 10x that easy to hams 

except at a swap meet where the usual offer will be thirty US cents each.   

[tautech]

Straw Poll time.

Ferrules or Bare wire into screw terminals in a mix of Low Voltage DC and Mains AC? I have never used the Round ones in the past or really seen a need for them 

Some non E types like them but I take that with a grain of salt as to good or bad. The relevent discussion is aimed at those same types of users with limited skills.

If assembly is to be done with fine stranded 'flex' cables and into screw fastening terminations, ferrules always.

Wanna take it to the next level again, consider a shrink sleeve printer:
https://www.brother.com.au/en/products/all-labellers/labellers/pt-e300vp

[AVGresponding]

   

Barrier strips (and those plug-in connectors that use a similar screw-down lug) are DESIGNED to work with bare wire, and the manufacturers will tell you that is how they work BEST. I've had many conversations with engineers from the manufacturers over this; back when the argument was over tinning the wires or not.

These crimp-on ferrules that have recently become popular  are really intended for ONE purpose; to aid in PRODUCTION wiring of machinery which uses them, and to combat "stray strand" faults.

Properly wiring with barrier strips requires CARE; care in stripping the wires to the correct exposed length, care in twisting the strands neatly, care in trimming the exposed wire so it feeds neatly into the socket without stray strands. These ferrules are designed to make it so you can just shove the wire in them, crimp them and shove them in the barrier strip; if there is a stray strand, the plastic cup usually traps it so it is harmless.

They DO make it easier to eliminate stray strands by putting the work "right at hand", however they also introduce the possibility of NOT getting the bundle of strands directly under the screw, which is a potential for poor contact over the long term. The plugs above put the work "right at hand" as well; if you can't get THEM wired properly, you shouldn't be wiring anything.

Like any connection... the more layers there are, the more chance for material to "flow" under pressure, loosening the connection (this is why you should NEVER tin stranded wire before inserting it into one of these connectors), and the more chance for corrosion to begin its evil work. I prefer to use these connectors with bare wire, as the really smart people who invented them intended.

It is MY considered opinion that the "work equity" paid to a project in the form of doing the above wiring carefully and double-checking every connection before applying power is more than worthwhile over the long term; the satisfaction of knowing I did the job right and using the parts as intended by those who designed them is the immediate payoff.

mnem
 

Tinning is certainly a major no-no, with any kind of screw terminal, be it plain, leaf, or rising clamp.

While I don't disagree with you on taking time to get the wiring right in the first place, I will say that these panels invariably end up in awkward to service/fault find locations/positions.

Having a ferrule aids the retention of the cable markers, as I've said, and in said service/fault finding conditions, you really do not want those little buggers falling off while you've got something unterminated, chasing your problem.

Add to that, there may be situations where you need to unterminate and reterminate wires often, and in that situation a ferrule will stop stranded and solid cables alike from deteriorating to the point they shear.

Bear in mind copper work hardens way faster than the nickel-plated mild steel the ferrules are made from.

[mnementh]

The FG503 dial fix is completed. I printed the dial markings on the clear sticky laser paper flipped horizontally so they would be correct when stuck on the back of the dial. I carefully trimmed the excess material around the plastic dial with a razor blade. I also re-painted the gray center as it was worn when it arrived. I had a modelling color that was almost a perfect match - Tamiya IJN Gray (XF-77).

A couple of friends just left; one was the owner of the Kikusui scope who was here to pick it up. I asked them both to look at the FG503 to see if they could spot anything that looked "home made" on the front panel, but they couldn't. I just have to finish a few cal items and then it can be added to my set of Tektronix plug-ins.

Too fucking shiny. *crosses arms and harrumphs* 

Teks are supposed to look old and crusty, like the old farts who use them.

mnem
 

[AVGresponding]

The FG503 dial fix is completed. I printed the dial markings on the clear sticky laser paper flipped horizontally so they would be correct when stuck on the back of the dial. I carefully trimmed the excess material around the plastic dial with a razor blade. I also re-painted the gray center as it was worn when it arrived. I had a modelling color that was almost a perfect match - Tamiya IJN Gray (XF-77).

A couple of friends just left; one was the owner of the Kikusui scope who was here to pick it up. I asked them both to look at the FG503 to see if they could spot anything that looked "home made" on the front panel, but they couldn't. I just have to finish a few cal items and then it can be added to my set of Tektronix plug-ins.

Too fucking shiny. *crosses arms and harrumphs* 

Teks are supposed to look old and crusty, like the old farts who use them.

mnem
 

Mine is especially shiny since I repainted it Fluke Yellow.

#reclaimthespectrum

[xrunner]

Teks are supposed to look old and crusty, like the old farts who use them.

mnem
 

Oh I'm not finished I'm going to spray paint the entire chassis blue. 

[mnementh]

   

Barrier strips (and those plug-in connectors that use a similar screw-down lug) are DESIGNED to work with bare wire, and the manufacturers will tell you that is how they work BEST. I've had many conversations with engineers from the manufacturers over this; back when the argument was over tinning the wires or not.

These crimp-on ferrules that have recently become popular  are really intended for ONE purpose; to aid in PRODUCTION wiring of machinery which uses them, and to combat "stray strand" faults.

Properly wiring with barrier strips requires CARE; care in stripping the wires to the correct exposed length, care in twisting the strands neatly, care in trimming the exposed wire so it feeds neatly into the socket without stray strands. These ferrules are designed to make it so you can just shove the wire in them, crimp them and shove them in the barrier strip; if there is a stray strand, the plastic cup usually traps it so it is harmless.

They DO make it easier to eliminate stray strands by putting the work "right at hand", however they also introduce the possibility of NOT getting the bundle of strands directly under the screw, which is a potential for poor contact over the long term. The plugs above put the work "right at hand" as well; if you can't get THEM wired properly, you shouldn't be wiring anything.

Like any connection... the more layers there are, the more chance for material to "flow" under pressure, loosening the connection (this is why you should NEVER tin stranded wire before inserting it into one of these connectors), and the more chance for corrosion to begin its evil work. I prefer to use these connectors with bare wire, as the really smart people who invented them intended.

It is MY considered opinion that the "work equity" paid to a project in the form of doing the above wiring carefully and double-checking every connection before applying power is more than worthwhile over the long term; the satisfaction of knowing I did the job right and using the parts as intended by those who designed them is the immediate payoff.

mnem
 

Tinning is certainly a major no-no, with any kind of screw terminal, be it plain, leaf, or rising clamp.

While I don't disagree with you on taking time to get the wiring right in the first place, I will say that these panels invariably end up in awkward to service/fault find locations/positions.

Having a ferrule aids the retention of the cable markers, as I've said, and in said service/fault finding conditions, you really do not want those little buggers falling off while you've got something unterminated, chasing your problem.

Add to that, there may be situations where you need to unterminate and reterminate wires often, and in that situation a ferrule will stop stranded and solid cables alike from deteriorating to the point they shear.

Bear in mind copper work hardens way faster than the nickel-plated mild steel the ferrules are made from.

Urrgh. Plated steel sleeves on copper wire. The potential for these to NOT tighten down correctly is exactly as related to the care and knowledge of the person applying them as the "bare wire" approach. If you don't apply them such that the screw tightens down directly into the indent from crimping the ferrule, or use an expensive radial crimper AND the crimps designed for them so that there is no such indent, you will be tightening on empty tube and on the wrong side of the crimp.

Many of these ferrules are too long for the depth of the barrier strip; they leave exposed tube unless you trim them, which is another step requiring care & expertise NOT to make the connection weak.

Yes, I read and understood the points you were making. I'm old-school and adept at color-coded/flag-tagged wiring. Guess that's just a different approach. Bottom line is I spent over a decade working with just this sort of machinery and just these sort of control panels. Yes, it's a pretty massive PITA; that's why you PAY someone who knows WTF they're doing.

I feel these ferrules are a product designed to A) make it quicker to get through the initial wiring process with less care and 2) help people who don't know what they're doing take work away from people who DO have the skill and level of care to do wiring properly. Not quite as bad as push-in wiring for outlets & switches, but definitely on the same slippery slope. 

I guess in bean's case, the bottom line is the bottom line... it's not a commercial/industrial application, so the user has to decide which set of priorities is more important in THEIR situation.

mnem
 

[med6753]

Teks are supposed to look old and crusty, like the old farts who use them.

mnem
 

 

Speaking of which. I have too many scopes. I admit it but I refuse treatment. Consequently some of them may get neglected. Case in point. This one. It's been sitting quietly for at least 8 months under the bench behind the 7904 cart. Out of sight, out of mind. But the Type 561B has taken it's place in storage and it will now get a turn on the torture rack for a few weeks. It powered up fine and works OK. 

     

[tautech]

Got the Type 3B3 Time Base plug-in. It's in one piece and in pretty good shape. Deoxit'ed the switches and controls and plugged it in.

Doesn't work, there's no sweep. Oh well. It will require an extender cable to troubleshoot it like the other plug-in's. That's a follow on activity for a later date. For now this Type 561B project will be put away. I want to start on the Type 106 Square Wave Generator. The first of it's parts will arrive tomorrow.



So the plug-in's requiring toubleshooting with an extender cable are:

Type 2B67 Time Base
Type 3A6 Vertical
Type 3B3 Time Base

Extender cable made for D83 plugins.


I'd mic'ed up the pitch required and stumbled across the right pitch socket at a surplus shop in a bargain bin. 
Removed one connector and slipped a sliver of paxolin in pin 5 to fashion a penis fingers cure.

[mnementh]

Teks are supposed to look old and crusty, like the old farts who use them.

mnem
 

 

Speaking of which. I have too many scopes. I admit it but I refuse treatment. Consequently some of them may get neglected. Case in point. This one. It's been sitting quietly for at least 8 months under the bench behind the 7904 cart. Out of sight, out of mind. But the Type 561B has taken it's place in storage and it will now get a turn on the torture rack for a few weeks. It powered up fine and works OK. 

     

mnem
 

[Cubdriver]

   

Barrier strips (and those plug-in connectors that use a similar screw-down lug) are DESIGNED to work with bare wire, and the manufacturers will tell you that is how they work BEST. I've had many conversations with engineers from the manufacturers over this; back when the argument was over tinning the wires or not.

These crimp-on ferrules that have recently become popular  are really intended for ONE purpose; to aid in PRODUCTION wiring of machinery which uses them, and to combat "stray strand" faults.

Properly wiring with barrier strips requires CARE; care in stripping the wires to the correct exposed length, care in twisting the strands neatly, care in trimming the exposed wire so it feeds neatly into the socket without stray strands. These ferrules are designed to make it so you can just shove the wire in them, crimp them and shove them in the barrier strip; if there is a stray strand, the plastic cup usually traps it so it is harmless.

They DO make it easier to eliminate stray strands by putting the work "right at hand", however they also introduce the possibility of NOT getting the bundle of strands directly under the screw, which is a potential for poor contact over the long term. The plugs above put the work "right at hand" as well; if you can't get THEM wired properly, you shouldn't be wiring anything.

Like any connection... the more layers there are, the more chance for material to "flow" under pressure, loosening the connection (this is why you should NEVER tin stranded wire before inserting it into one of these connectors), and the more chance for corrosion to begin its evil work. I prefer to use these connectors with bare wire, as the really smart people who invented them intended.

It is MY considered opinion that the "work equity" paid to a project in the form of doing the above wiring carefully and double-checking every connection before applying power is more than worthwhile over the long term; the satisfaction of knowing I did the job right and using the parts as intended by those who designed them is the immediate payoff.

mnem
 

Tinning is certainly a major no-no, with any kind of screw terminal, be it plain, leaf, or rising clamp.

While I don't disagree with you on taking time to get the wiring right in the first place, I will say that these panels invariably end up in awkward to service/fault find locations/positions.

Having a ferrule aids the retention of the cable markers, as I've said, and in said service/fault finding conditions, you really do not want those little buggers falling off while you've got something unterminated, chasing your problem.

Add to that, there may be situations where you need to unterminate and reterminate wires often, and in that situation a ferrule will stop stranded and solid cables alike from deteriorating to the point they shear.

Bear in mind copper work hardens way faster than the nickel-plated mild steel the ferrules are made from.

Urrgh. Plated steel sleeves on copper wire. The potential for these to NOT tighten down correctly is exactly as related to the care and knowledge of the person applying them as the "bare wire" approach. If you don't apply them such that the screw tightens down directly into the indent from crimping the ferrule, or use an expensive radial crimper AND the crimps designed for them so that there is no such indent, you will be tightening on empty tube and on the wrong side of the crimp.

Many of these ferrules are too long for the depth of the barrier strip; they leave exposed tube unless you trim them, which is another step requiring care & expertise NOT to make the connection weak.

Yes, I read and understood the points you were making. I'm old-school and adept at color-coded/flag-tagged wiring. Guess that's just a different approach. Bottom line is I spent over a decade working with just this sort of machinery and just these sort of control panels. Yes, it's a pretty massive PITA; that's why you PAY someone who knows WTF they're doing.

I feel these ferrules are a product designed to A) make it quicker to get through the initial wiring process with less care and 2) help people who don't know what they're doing take work away from people who DO have the skill and level of care to do wiring properly. Not quite as bad as push-in wiring for outlets & switches, but definitely on the same slippery slope. 

I guess in bean's case, the bottom line is the bottom line... it's not a commercial/industrial application, so the user has to decide which set of priorities is more important in THEIR situation.

mnem
 

Plated steel?  Where do you get your ferrules from?

https://www.panduit.com/content/dam/panduit/en/products/media/6/16/816/3816/100613816.pdf

http://catalog.americanelectrical.com/Asset/American-Electrical-_-Insulated-Wire-Ferrules.pdf

https://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data%20Sheets/Phoenix%20Contact%20PDFs/AI.pdf

https://www.te.com/commerce/DocumentDelivery/DDEController?Action=srchrtrv&DocNm=966067&DocType=Customer+Drawing&DocLang=English

http://www.altechcorp.com/PDFS/ferrulecatalog.pdf

All the reputable ones I've ever seen are tin plated copper.

-Pat

[mnementh]

I was quoting @AVGresponding. I don't use steel crimps of any sort, except when provided/specified by the client. Even then I try to warn them about the poor quality of product they're making me use.

Rarely makes a difference, though.     However, I do make sure to document thoroughly in my WO notes.

mnem
The 13th Commandment: Thou shalt document lest it be thine ass in a sling.

[AVGresponding]

My bad, don't blame mnem, I ass-umed they were.

Just sacrificed one on the altar of empiricism, and you're quite correct, plated copper.

I stand by them protecting the wire under repeated reterminations however; that is also knowledge empirically gained.

[mnementh]

Yeah, I think this may be one of those cases of "Standards change. This is how we do things now." I'll admit it's been quite a while since I was working with this stuff every day. Just because the way I do it is what was considered "correct according to the manufacturer" doesn't mean it is so now.

Case in point... I just ran across a 8-port 10baseT HUB in the Thrift. *cue flashiebackie music*

How many of these did I Widlarize in the parking lot (always on the clock too, dammit  ) lest they find their way BACK into my workflow... 

mnem
Just say 'No, thank you.' "

[Specmaster]

Teks are supposed to look old and crusty, like the old farts who use them.

mnem
 

 

Arh, the best of both worlds is represented well by Homer Simpson, the Tek Blue and the Fluke Yellow, whats not to like? 

[AVGresponding]

Perhaps Saskia could use these for powering her railgun, or x-ray laser.

https://twitter.com/PcbArts/status/1275390619070935041

[tonyalbus]

Again a counter looking a lot better....



i think i will take out the display glass again to use a copperpolish to remove the last scratches, but pleased with the result for now.