Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[tggzzz]

Buildzoid does a rundown an the various x570 boards on youtube. While I am not into hardcore overclock his analysis regarding vrms and thermals does hold some merit.
Which is the reason why I went for the Asus.
As I said, the prime p is about the least expensive board that does not suck. Do not get a gigabyte below the aorus elite. With MSI the unify and the Ace are hot picks. While I like ASRock the do seem to lag behind in x570.

I normally hate yootube vids for many reasons, but buildzoid vid had some redeeming features. OK, he rambles (especially at the end), and I could have picked up the information in 10mins if it had been written down, but he did present a lot of information.

Curiously and pleasingly, one that he really liked was one that I'm seriously considering: the Asus x570 tuf gaming without wifi. As you say, he also liked the x570 prime p.

[mansaxel]

Kerberos. Shudder.   

I've been in that context coming on 20 years now. Second nature pain to me ;-)

[beanflying]

Puff, the magic dwagon, ...

sorry, could not resist.

In other news hubby's fever has gone down. Test tomorrow morning 0800.
in yet other news: Beware of corsair vengeance memory and Ryzen. They don't like each other.
I have some preliminary benchmarks, will post them later on. 9600k vs. Ryzen 5 3600x

Good news on your other half 

Not sure what your issue is with the Corsair Vengeance? My B450 based box is running LPX 32GB CL16 that I have actually re timed to speed it up and it is/has been really stable. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/general-computing/ryzen-memory-overclocking-step-by-step/msg2608254/#msg2608254

[AVGresponding]

Wow, really wasn't expecting this but I just had to call out Mehdi for bs in his latest video!



It will be interesting to see if he replies...

[Saskia]

With newer vengeance memory, none of my Ryzen systems boot, they just do not pass POST, even though they are running at slowest settings.

Older vengeance modules did work, and the ones I have here do POST without any issues in Windows systems.

It's a weird incompatibility, but apparently I am not the only one experiencing the issue.

in the attachment you can see passmark 9600k vs Ryzen 5 3600x. You can easily recognize the Ryzen from the CPU marks, it is at about ~21000, whereas the i5 is at roughly 14000.
Beware, there is a Zotac 2060 in the i5 and a Zotac 2070 in the Ryzen, therefor the graphics scores cannot really be compared.

Both are nice systems though.

[beanflying]

Strange issue then  I made sure the of the LPX memory before I ordered it in about July last year and it was on the CPU and Gigabyte MB lists as being good.

[Saskia]

ok, small update: I got the system to post with 2 Vengeance sticks. It will under no circumstances detect 4. It did detect 4 G.Skill sticks, though.

Now running benchmark for comparison, I do have a second Prime X570-P board (plus SSD plus Case plus Power supply plus graphics card, so I am wondering whether I should go and buy a 3[6789]00x.

With that spare RTX 2070 I have floating around that might make a halfway decent system ...

[Mr. Scram]

B450M + Ryzen 5 2600X here. Does the job! Also it runs almost 100% silently full whack with a suitably large heatsink.

Just don't get an ASrock board. It's shit. If I was going to build another "affordable compute" node I'd hit an Asus B450M based board and a Ryzen 7.

Edit: just to add, they are completely rock solid and problem free past the power supply teething issues I had so I'd avoid Be! Quiet power supplies. Stay away from Nvidia graphics if you're on Linux though.

Brand preference seems to be all over the place and highly anecdotal. I've never come across more tangible numbers to go on.

[bd139]

Brand preference seems to be all over the place and highly anecdotal. I've never come across more tangible numbers to go on.

There's definitely very strong correlation with certain brands and being not shit. That's how you have to look at it.

[jxjbsd]

This is an oscilloscope produced in China in the 1980s. 33m bandwidth, 100m maximum in the same series

[Mr. Scram]

There's definitely very strong correlation with certain brands and being not shit. That's how you have to look at it.

I'm just not seeing it. Every brand seems to have proponents and detractors. There seems to be somewhat of a skew in favour of more expensive brands but that's exactly what brand psychology predicts. A higher price is perceived to represent a higher quality. In terms of factual numbers I've never seen anything to support this. There just seems to be a lot of anecdotal evidence, noise and competing fanboys.

[Specmaster]

With newer vengeance memory, none of my Ryzen systems boot, they just do not pass POST, even though they are running at slowest settings.

Older vengeance modules did work, and the ones I have here do POST without any issues in Windows systems.

It's a weird incompatibility, but apparently I am not the only one experiencing the issue.

in the attachment you can see passmark 9600k vs Ryzen 5 3600x. You can easily recognize the Ryzen from the CPU marks, it is at about ~21000, whereas the i5 is at roughly 14000.
Beware, there is a Zotac 2060 in the i5 and a Zotac 2070 in the Ryzen, therefor the graphics scores cannot really be compared.

Both are nice systems though.

Based on your overall score, I'm fairly happy with my system as the passmark score I posted was just the CPU, overall complete system comes out at a reasonable 3109 and to get a real improvement in that figure would mean some serious investment , MB, CPU, RAM DDR4, GPU, Disk Drives, the only parts I could recycle would be keyboard, mouse, monitor, case, water cooler and power supply, that would be an outlay of around £700. That in my view cannot be justified, if it was for work and would be earning its keep, thats a different matter.

[mnementh]

So a buddy asks if I wanna big cutting torch.......does a bear shite in the woods was my reply.        A few days later to my great delight he turns up with one of these: 
(SNIP)
Question time, any issues I need be aware of using an Acetylene regulator for LPG ?   Or should I bodge a barbeque regulator to deliver the required 2 PSI ?

Tomorrows task, shove some Oxy into the mix and really see what it can do ! 

You really want a good quality dual-stage regulator made for LPG cutting if you can; bodge setups have a number of safety weaknesses, not the least of which being you'll almost always be running higher pressure than you should because you don't really know what your pressure is. A single-stage reg for acetylene will not regulate down to LPG pressures properly; you'll have lots of "sag" & "overshoot" in the pressure when you switch from preheat to cutting mode as you need a reg designed for larger flow at lower pressure; think the difference between a regular paint gun vs HVLP.

A good dual-stage acetylene regulator will usually work well with LPG; you just need to change the gauges for ones on the 350-500PSI range primary and 3PSI range secondary. Typically, these will really only be readily available from an industrial supplier like Grainger, etc.

A BBQ reg is going to produce approx 11" WC, or 6-ish oz/I². They will not provide adequate pressure for cutting thicker metal; your LPG cutting tip will want to be more in the 1-2PSI range. They are a single-stage reg, so you'll be leaving 10-20% in the bottle when it "runs out", and they are not usually adjustable anymore... the LPG industry has been pushing hard to make regulators (especially those for BBQs) a "sealed unit" ever since the introduction of "lock-up" regulators that will shut down if gas flow exceeds the volume they are rated at.

You REALLY want to get a proper low-pressure gauge on the outlet; even a few ounces can make a huge difference in how much gas you use. Oxy-Propane cutting runs cooler and it always has a small amount of LP in the mix. This means you will suck propane dry more frequently; get used to it. 

   I understand tho; a good dual-stage reg is VERY expensive, be it for acetylene or propane. If you don't mind the gas running out with liquid still in the bottle (just like every BBQ does), for a low-bux solution, try finding an old adjustable gas cooktop regulator (these will typically provide much higher flow than a BBQ reg) and plumb it with the quick-coupler off a BBQ reg. This you can readily add a proper low-pressure gauge, and then experiment with different springs/spacers so you can adjust it properly to the 1-2PSI range your guide calls for, and you'll still be fundamentally safe.

The other thing you need to realize is that unless you spend the bux on a proper set of propane regs, you aren't going to get nearly the quality of cut from oxy-propane that you do from oxy-acetylene. It'll cut blobby and slow in comparison. There's a reason welders call them a "junkyard torch".

Good luck,

mnem

[Neomys Sapiens]

Is there a new virus out there? It is not corona, but it seems to be dangerous! A first look did show it to be of the IT/HLL class of illnesses. We can trace it's devious workings right in this thread, where previously sensible people have turned into generators of total gibberish! Don't say you were not warned!

In completely unrelated news, I can report the aquisition of a rare beast: the Tektronix TVC501 Time-to-Voltage Converter (along with a second TM502 and AM503).



After reading a bit into it, I am fervently hoping that it will turn out to be ok. Because I am not sure that I could test/repair it if not. But as a capability, it would be certainly welcome.

 Tektronix_Catalog_1991_tvc501.pdf (670.84 kB - downloaded 141 times.)

[bd139]

There's definitely very strong correlation with certain brands and being not shit. That's how you have to look at it.

I'm just not seeing it. Every brand seems to have proponents and detractors. There seems to be somewhat of a skew in favour of more expensive brands but that's exactly what brand psychology predicts. A higher price is perceived to represent a higher quality. In terms of factual numbers I've never seen anything to support this. There just seems to be a lot of anecdotal evidence, noise and competing fanboys.

I worked for a large pollster and analytics company which did brand reputation management. Really what happens is a brand has to keep the plates spinning on quality and management otherwise small quality scandals kill the brand. Only brands with low amounts of negative opinion get to raise prices and keep volume. Think Apple.

Edit: bought another M600 while they are cheap. Everyone looking for grunt and I'm looking at less watts. As they run on ~19V DC I'm going to play with running one off grid (debian + xfce not windows).

[tautech]

Perfect mnem, just the sort of stuff I wanted needed to know. Much appreciated. 

Fairly sure in the never throw out pile I have some old LPG BBQ regs with perished hoses and just maybe, some that aren't sealed so to bodge the diaphragm spring to 2 PSI.
I tried tweaking one for a 3 ring burner and could never get enough gas flow/pressure to get the thing fair roaring to get my big spud pot hot enough however I do have a 15 PSI LPG regulator .....a dumb thing at that with zero in the way of gauges and preset pressure.

Maybe I should just cut and run with that, whaddya reckon ?
Anyways, with yours and Pats tips and bit more Gurgling and some trial and error should get me sorted.

[Mr. Scram]

I worked for a large pollster and analytics company which did brand reputation management. Really what happens is a brand has to keep the plates spinning on quality and management otherwise small quality scandals kill the brand. Only brands with low amounts of negative opinion get to raise prices and keep volume. Think Apple.

Edit: bought another M600 while they are cheap. Everyone looking for grunt and I'm looking at less watts. As they run on ~19V DC I'm going to play with running one off grid (debian + xfce not windows).

Brand reputation management in place of engineering and quality control says it all, doesn't it? Perceived quality is very important whereas the role of actual quality isn't as obvious. Apple would indeed be a good example of this. They're dealing with their fair share of issues and regularly tell customers to sod off yet people seem mostly unfazed. The high prices seem to be part of it. If you paid top dollar for something the last thing you want is finding out you bought a lemon. I don't think they're much worse than others either.

[bd139]

I worked for a large pollster and analytics company which did brand reputation management. Really what happens is a brand has to keep the plates spinning on quality and management otherwise small quality scandals kill the brand. Only brands with low amounts of negative opinion get to raise prices and keep volume. Think Apple.

Edit: bought another M600 while they are cheap. Everyone looking for grunt and I'm looking at less watts. As they run on ~19V DC I'm going to play with running one off grid (debian + xfce not windows).

Brand reputation management in place of engineering and quality control says it all, doesn't it? Perceived quality is very important whereas the role of actual quality isn't as obvious. Apple would indeed be a good example of this. They're dealing with their fair share of issues and regularly tell customers to sod off yet people seem mostly unfazed. The high prices seem to be part of it. If you paid top dollar for something the last thing you want is finding out you bought a lemon. I don't think they're much worse than others either.

This is the complicated bit of the product cycle. If you bring a product to market, how do you measure quality? And a philosophical question: what even is quality?

That's where the reputation management comes in. You pick up buzz and opinion from the market which feeds into the product cycle to cover the last 25% of that question that you can't deal with in house. This develops into a mature list of things which users perceive as quality and allow you to say "We did X - it was a stupid idea".

That's why Apple do a 180 regularly when their 75% up front engineering process churns out a turd. Then they learn from that and the issue goes away in the next minor product release and the next major one.

Then a new issue appears and everyone gets pissy again

[mansaxel]

That's why Apple do a 180 regularly when their 75% up front engineering process churns out a turd. Then they learn from that and the issue goes away in the next minor product release and the next major one.

Then a new issue appears and everyone gets pissy again

Yeah. The only two brands of portable computer I've managed to not destroy are Apples and Thinkpads. There is a very tangible value in your computer being reliably available for work.

Having said that, the newer Macbooks have a joke instead of a keyboard, with a common complaint being double and triple strikes. And a pathetic lack of an Escape key. In spite of that, I'm clearly and repeatably much faster at typing on them. They got something right, but not enough.  The rest of the hardware is mostly without issue.

[bd139]

Indeed. I bought a new MBA end of 2018 and the keyboard fucked up with key repetitions after two weeks . Apart from that it was pretty much spot on. New keyboard was actually nice to type on when you get used to it. It went back to the apple store and they just refunded it there and then no questions asked (try that with any other vendor).

Still have the XR I bought then. Absolutely no problems with that at all!

[Mr. Scram]

Indeed. I bought a new MBA end of 2018 and the keyboard fucked up  . Apart from that it was pretty much spot on. New keyboard was actually nice to type on when you get used to it.

Various models seem to have various weaknesses. The keyboards have indeed been an issue on some of the newer models.

[bd139]

Yes apart from keyboard the two main annoyances...

Ooops there goes my top end i7 15" MBP... dropped 3 inches  £400 that cost
 


USB-C only on the MBA... 



Will stick with the thinkpads for now.

[Saskia]

oopsie. have a look at Louis Rossmann's channel if you want to learn everything about Macbooks you never wanted to know ...

[bd139]

oopsie. have a look at Louis Rossmann's channel if you want to learn everything about Macbooks you never wanted to know ...

I know of Rossman and know all about his opinion. In fact I've had an argument with him on here because I disagree with him almost universally. In this day and age, FRU replacement maximum or just recycle the device entirely. It's not worth repairing stuff unless it's simple FRU replacement unless you're an enthusiast or scrap collector (I am arguably both).

Really he's running a quite successful marketing operation that preys on people who didn't get AppleCare or other insurance, didn't back up their shit or hang out on YT.

His reputation is entirely undeserved or at least on par with any other premium high street repairer. I would use none of his hardware after board level repair other than for DR. Get your data off and dispose of it quickly. It's a liability once the board is compromised.

Really the killer is don't buy it if you can't afford to replace it or don't know how to use it. He's got a lot of customers who fit both those categories.

The only valuable thing in IT is solving problems and generating new knowledge and charging for it. Hardware is mostly moot as it's so damn cheap these days. Selling the repair lie these days is unethical I think.

[Specmaster]

Yes apart from keyboard the two main annoyances...

Ooops there goes my top end i7 15" MBP... dropped 3 inches  £400 that cost
 


USB-C only on the MBA... 



Will stick with the thinkpads for now.

Thats why I much prefer proper desktops or towers, greatly reduces the risk of damage to them, plus of course far more powerful and better air flow thus cooling making then far more capable of being used for extended periods or even 24/7.