Author Topic: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread  (Read 16688985 times)

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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #52200 on: March 14, 2020, 06:06:33 pm »
Aside: this thread is beginning to have all the style and elegance of GeoCities websites, circa 1997 :)

Many years ago, before the idea of hacking everything with malware was a commonplace, a friend of mine, one Steve Rodda*, noted that as PostScript was Turing complete, it ought to be possible to infect it with a "PostScript good taste virus" that would foreverafter limit documents to using a harmonious set of fonts in a tasteful fashion.

* 20-something in line to the Cornish Rodda's ice-cream and clotted cream business.
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Offline Specmaster

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #52201 on: March 14, 2020, 06:12:45 pm »
@bd139 a copy of the 257 manual can be downloaded here and may contain the answer to the backlight issue. Its the very first result you require and it downloads it directly.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=Brymen+257+manual
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Offline bd139

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #52202 on: March 14, 2020, 06:20:53 pm »
@bd139 a copy of the 257 manual can be downloaded here and may contain the answer to the backlight issue. Its the very first result you require and it downloads it directly.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=Brymen+257+manual

Thanks for that. 32 seconds again  :--


I find the idea that right to repair can be pooh-poohed by people on this forum frankly astonishing. The same tired old arguments are rolled out again and again. There are many ways that people can perform dangerous modifications to many types of equipment, due to lack of competence and/or substandard parts. Whether it's legal or not will make no difference whatsoever to this; the people that do things like that are fucking morons who have no sense of consequence or personal responsibility.
Arguably giving access to reputable and reliable repair businesses to manufacturers components reduces this risk as there's little doubt that many people try to repair their own stuff when they can't afford what the manufacturer tells them it's gonna cost, which is of course usually a complete new unit.
I rather doubt anything LR has ever repaired has set fire to a tower block or ever will, and to suggest otherwise is disingenuous at best.


The issue is some of the stuff LR classifies as a "repair" is actually a "crutch" which should be used to get the data off the machine and then the machine would be discarded for the sake of data integrity. We're talking board level repair here on things designed with extremely strict timing and transmission lines. Just because it looks like it works doesn't mean it does and can be silently gobbling up your data.

My objection is not the repairs or the criticism of the Genius Bar (I call it the Tard Bar myself) but the basis that you can have a non-objective rabid following of haters. He's basically running the KKK of the repair business waiting for the next opportunity to lynch someone he doesn't like. This works for him and his business as it generates customers and clicks.

As always, be wary of "personalities" as they usually live in front of cults.

Got myself an Oki Metcal PS-900 for mumblety-mumble quid, and also a Tenma SMD rework station and Tenma SMD preheater, to commence my journey into knackering SMD pcb's as well as through hole ones!   ;D[/color][/b]

You'll be super happy. Metcal PS900 is my daily driver iron and extremely good. Zero complaints  :-+
« Last Edit: March 14, 2020, 06:25:06 pm by bd139 »
 
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Offline WastelandTek

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #52203 on: March 14, 2020, 06:39:36 pm »
I tell you what, if I was stuck with one of those locked down John Deere tractors I'd be chucking the computer in the bin and running a wire from the battery to the coil...
I'm new here, but I tend to be pretty gregarious, so if I'm out of my lane please call me out.
 
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Online tautech

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #52204 on: March 14, 2020, 07:16:24 pm »
Anyway back on topic. Need a second handheld DMM. I'm using the Fluke 87 and the BM22s at the moment but the BM22s is a little awkward. I'm looking at the BM257s as that has thermocouple support. 6000 count is enough. Not as big as the BM867s and the backlight stays on for 10 minutes apparently  :-DD. Thoughts?
15B+ ? 17B+ ?
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Offline bd139

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #52205 on: March 14, 2020, 07:20:57 pm »
Anyway back on topic. Need a second handheld DMM. I'm using the Fluke 87 and the BM22s at the moment but the BM22s is a little awkward. I'm looking at the BM257s as that has thermocouple support. 6000 count is enough. Not as big as the BM867s and the backlight stays on for 10 minutes apparently  :-DD. Thoughts?
15B+ ? 17B+ ?

Was looking at those actually but not even a bar graph!  :palm:

Perhaps a 115 or something.
 

Offline Specmaster

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #52206 on: March 14, 2020, 07:26:39 pm »
I'll leave the Apple v everything else debate with this parting shot, all people who are pushing the right to repair process are after is access to a proper repair service using genuine parts at a fair price, nothing more or less which sounds pretty sensible to me. Other makers have been brought into this discussion and I have had some 1st hand experience here. I have a Samsung Galaxy S3 phone wouldn't take a charge, so I took it a few years back to one of their repair centres (not a 3rd party one, but a Samsung one) where I was told the same as what Apple are charged with, it was non-repairable, so I brought another. When I brought myself a microscope I examined the S3 and discovered that all it needed was a new charging port. I obtained anew micro USB port and replaced it myself and it is still working perfectly ok today.

Had I not investigated it further myself then the phone would be on the scrap heap just 2 years after I brought it new and that makes no sense whatsoever and since that time Rossman, who also used to complain incidentally about Samsung, has since praised Samsung publicly for taking the first steps towards putting the situation with regard to repairs and access to parts right and here is a link to where the public can purchase direct from Samsung a limited supply of parts for their products and I have no doubt that people like Rossman can get access to chips and schematics etc as well.

https://www.samsung-parts.net/

This is a lesson for all of those companies that operate a closed shop, not everyone is earning megabucks and afford to throw away and buy new, we are to a lot of people, talking quite a major purchase, an iPhone 10 can cost around $900 and it is possible to buy other smartphones for around $150, that do almost the same thing with less bling, even at $150 I would not be happy if I had to buy another once the warranty had expired.
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Offline Specmaster

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #52207 on: March 14, 2020, 07:28:55 pm »
Anyway back on topic. Need a second handheld DMM. I'm using the Fluke 87 and the BM22s at the moment but the BM22s is a little awkward. I'm looking at the BM257s as that has thermocouple support. 6000 count is enough. Not as big as the BM867s and the backlight stays on for 10 minutes apparently  :-DD. Thoughts?
15B+ ? 17B+ ?

Was looking at those actually but not even a bar graph!  :palm:

Perhaps a 115 or something.
Why do you need the backlight feature on so long, its not as you are stuck in dark and dingy corner any more, you add in plenty of lights now?
Who let Murphy in?

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Offline bd139

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #52208 on: March 14, 2020, 07:29:30 pm »
Not just for bench use.
 

Online tautech

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #52209 on: March 14, 2020, 07:33:37 pm »
Anyway back on topic. Need a second handheld DMM. I'm using the Fluke 87 and the BM22s at the moment but the BM22s is a little awkward. I'm looking at the BM257s as that has thermocouple support. 6000 count is enough. Not as big as the BM867s and the backlight stays on for 10 minutes apparently  :-DD. Thoughts?
15B+ ? 17B+ ?

Was looking at those actually but not even a bar graph!  :palm:

Perhaps a 115 or something.
Yeah then you get into DMM's targeted for western markets and $$$  :o  :scared:

I don't need much from a DMM so a 15B has served me well and if I want more I'll drag out something else.
If I was to get another DMM only the BM235 interests me.
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Offline bd139

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #52210 on: March 14, 2020, 07:39:07 pm »
Nah there are a few cheap ones out there. I can get a brand new Fluke 117 kit with a free 323 clamp meter for £120 or so at the moment which is pretty good. But again min amps resolution is 1mA. I am probably fine with that as the 87 has uA though and perhaps I'm being too fussy. I don't know. I could do with the clamp meter for some of the futzing I do with mains.

BM235 was interesting yes. Again no bargraph though. I need something a bit faster responding than digits for trend watching etc. The backlight on that one is better though at 10 minutes  :-DD. Perhaps it'll do.

Analysis paralysis.
 

Online tautech

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #52211 on: March 14, 2020, 07:44:44 pm »
Analysis paralysis.
Yep.
One of the reasons I got a couple of spares when I got a class set of 15B's for a customer was they had a uA range and used just 2 AA's.
I've not been disappointed with it and know it's safe to measure anything within reason.
I looked recently and they're still ~$65.
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Offline bd139

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #52212 on: March 14, 2020, 07:45:40 pm »
Not bad. What's the continuity like on them?
 

Online tautech

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #52213 on: March 14, 2020, 07:50:21 pm »
Not bad. What's the continuity like on them?
Probably not lighting fast but it's fine for what I do. Joe Smith tested the 17B IIRC so have a hunt through his vids for it.
FYI the 15 and 17 have the same guts and the 17 has a couple of additional front panel buttons that they charge $20+ for.  ::)



Gotta get some paint on before Discord..............
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Online tautech

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #52214 on: March 14, 2020, 08:11:30 pm »
Soon be wasp season, I wonder if Tautech does this with his bastard wasps?


Ah paper wasps.....squirt them with anything with hydrocarbons in it and they drop like stones !  >:D


Stuff the bloody painting, FFS the wall is still wet !
Beautiful autumn morning but for the bloody dew.  :rant:

Coffee time and try to get the old laptop to play nice with Discord.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2020, 08:13:31 pm by tautech »
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Online tggzzz

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #52215 on: March 14, 2020, 08:21:53 pm »
Aside: this thread is beginning to have all the style and elegance of GeoCities websites, circa 1997 :)

Many years ago, before the idea of hacking everything with malware was a commonplace, a friend of mine, one Steve Rodda*, noted that as PostScript was Turing complete, it ought to be possible to infect it with a "PostScript good taste virus" that would foreverafter limit documents to using a harmonious set of fonts in a tasteful fashion.

* 20-something in line to the Cornish Rodda's ice-cream and clotted cream business.

Around 1986 people used the eight queens problem to benchmark language implementations and computers.

Running it inside an Apple LaserWriter was noticeably faster than inside an Apple Mac.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline Specmaster

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #52216 on: March 14, 2020, 08:36:53 pm »
Not bad. What's the continuity like on them?
Trouble with the 15B is once again it's only 4000 count and your looking for 6000?
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Offline mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #52217 on: March 14, 2020, 08:38:58 pm »
You are willing to buy and put up with a cheap POS battery that has half the design life and half the real capacity (yes, deliberate exaggeration, but still nowhere near the same quality from your no-name supplier) as an original battery, you have that right. You do NOT have the right to EXPECT a manufacturer to help you do it. You ALSO don't have the right to expect them to supply you a part that requires expert installation when they don't know what kind of 1d10t you might be, and in their experience, those who want to DIY ARE 1d10ts, because they are NOT buying what Apple is selling, which is the Apple Ecology I've already described.

THAT  is the core problem... people buying Apple because "it's the hawtness" and hating them because it's not what they really want, which is "the new hawtness" without actually having to pay for it. :palm:

You don't have the right to expect them to support you in that unreasonable desire, or to design their product such that parts are easily replaceable just because you don't like it. Their design is what they're selling; the "sleek seamless thing" design is their stock in trade, FFS. :palm:

Same is true of the screen, and I've bought more than a few 3rd party screens... they are NOT anywhere near as good glass or digitizers. PERIOD. And the same is true of the buttons. They incorporate a security feature. That security feature was asked for by the majority of their customers. Your edge use-case is irrelevant here.

If you want the "Apple Hawtness", buy Apple product and be happy with it. If not, buy something else; Samsuck and Lucky GoldStar will gladly take your money. But FFS, stop bitching that Apple is Apple.

It's not like you didn't KNOW their phone/tablet/PC/dong polisher/WTF-ever was hermetically sealed when you bought it; it's a FUCKING ADVERTISED FEATURE.
:palm:

mnem
Just say "No, thank you."

What I'm saying is yes, Apple is known for their stock-in-trade of being sealed and sleek etc, but none of that removes their stance on the right to repair. I'm NOT on about the right to buy and fit poorly designed items from 3rd parties, but the right to having your device fixed by Apple or authorised agents BUT using genuine Apple replacement parts built to the same spec as originally fitted, the same is true for batteries then there wouldn't be a possible Grenfell 2, at a sensible and affordable price and within a reasonable time frame.

The same can be said for other manufacturers who have a similar outlook, the time has come to act responsibly, the planet cannot accept this amount of built-in throwaway concept. I do not for a single moment believe Louis Rossman would ever fit cheap counterfeit and dangerous parts in his repairs, this is why he and so many others are lobbing congress for the right to be able to access genuine parts so the original design integrity is maintained throughout the products' life. He and others are not seeking to have access to the code so that they can rewrite code, all they want is for the parts to be made accessible at sensible prices without the need for software locks etc. So if a digitizer is at fault, or the chip that handles the digitizer is faulty, then getting those parts etc from Apple and replacing them does not involve them in having access to the software so the software integrity remains 100% intact and no breach in security is made.

There is a whole world of "knee-deep in the hoopla" in what you suggest. Please bear with me; this is at least a 3-flagon move... :o

First off... I do not hold LR's "standards" in the high regard you do. I've seen him call "fixed" repairs I wouldn't let out the door under ANY circumstances; I would literally remove all of it and tell the customer it couldn't be repaired safely or reliably. I have no doubt that if he knew he could get away with it, he'd install the cheap shit; especially if he could phrase it as a "this is an almost as good (it's not) clone part; it costs 1/3 the real thing" decision and make it the customer's choice. I honestly have no doubt he does this off-screen all the time. He's a fucking carny barker, NOT a technician or disgruntled engineer as he might have you believe.

Now into the real hoopla...

Your analogy is faulty; the technology in question is NOT a necessity like a car or truck, it is a LUXURY. PERIOD. What they manufacture does not NEED to exist. As such, it is unreasonable to try and hold the manufacturers of such gear to the "repairability" standards reasonable for a car or house or furnace, for example. Even THOSE necessities are being driven by the corporate "The bottom line is the bottom line" mentality into providing repair as a "replace a module" rather than "replace a single part" scenario. As long as we as a species continue to worship the almighty Corporation, they will never change that mentality; repair rather than turnover is the antithesis of their very DNA. |O

Driven by customer demand, the technology involved in modern "portable computing" devices has been forced to develop some pretty sophisticated security technology of its own; many of these technologies are provided in hardware "jellybeans" that are like a sausage grinder: The signal goes in, a different signal comes out, but don't you DARE look at what goes on inside. Due to demands for end-user privacy, there is some VERY sensitive security-related technology in a modern phone or tablet... as in "National Security" type sensitive. The technology in many cases is such that a manufacturer is prohibited by contract or even international treaties or National Security regulations from selling that part EXCEPT as a component in a completed product. Keeping track of this is another thing that is EXPENSIVE, as is the need to keep how YOUR systems connect to that technology privileged.

Simply providing a schematic diagram of that is in many cases one of the first keys a ne'er-do-well needs to start exploiting that security. :palm:

And now we come down to the final bit... cost. Maintaining the kind of security a manufacturer like Apple needs comes with a lot of different kinds of cost; there's money, there's R&D IP, there's managing the physical security of the product being manufactured during manufacture & assembly by 3rd parties such that cheap copies of your product aren't released by other parties before you can deliver.

One of the key strategies in that particular aspect is also the most costly: compartmentalizing in the same way as we and Germany did during our wartime atomic weapons development. In a mass-production scenario, this means buying assemblies in huge lots, which then have to be meticulously accounted for until they're permanently part of that product. That has evolved into a completely different attitude towards repair than we consider normal for automobiles; that the BEST means of assuring security is to MAKE SURE EVERY PART MANUFACTURED ONLY COMES TO YOU. You have 110% of your assemblies made; you manufacture your 100% quantity of product, you save 10% for manufacturing failure rework and warranty repair, and you keep the rest for your service centers. PERIOD. Once you've done that transaction, the product is DONE. PERIOD. Not revisiting means no worries of countefeit parts made using your designs, and you can say with 100% confidence that any parts not installed by your ASPs is counterfeit.

By working this way, yes you annoy some people who think you should provide your luxury product at a price they consider reasonable... but you completely eliminate a huge security concern in OTHER PEOPLE'S ACCOUNTING of your sensitive hardware, while at the same time sidestepping a whole new and expensive ecosystem in "being a parts counter".

There's a reason for the old joke about "If you built a '57 Chevy out of parts, it would cost 1/4 million dollars" or whatever the numbers are now: being a parts distributor is a WHOLE ECOSYSTEM unto itself, and it is the keeping track of and storing those parts for resale that is what makes that collection of '57 Chevy parts so fucking expensive.

And finally... you wind up with the ages-old argument over what price for parts is "reasonable". If you actually had to pay cost of manufacture & delivery from overseas plus actual cost of SECURE warehousing, accounting, picking and shipping/restocking of say a new LCD/Digitizer... you'd realize that while the new part probably only costs 2-3x what the cheap clone part cost... it is the SECURE HANDLING that costs real money.

Now... add on top of that... the cost of managing all the training and reference to assist hacks like LR in "repairing" the completed product that is in fact your bread and butter... shit, you'd be building whole Universities to train people to properly repair these things. To train people to go to work doing cheap repairs of the luxury item which is your bread & butter, and which you KNOW that once they have that education, 4 out of 5 are going to install the cheap clone parts and fuck you up the arse, while at the same time costing you aggravation in dealing with illegitimate repairs as if they should be warrantied, and even worse, tarnishing your reputation with the people who actually HAVE bought into the whole aspirational "Upwards" branding that is your stock in trade.

You think an iPwn is expensive NOW? Adding the whole ecosystem of support ecosystems you suggest would TRIPLE the pricetag.  :scared:

You don't REALLY think a corporation would EAT that cost just to make a few whiny cheapasses happy, do you...?

mnem
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Offline mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #52218 on: March 14, 2020, 08:41:35 pm »
I tell you what, if I was stuck with one of those locked down John Deere tractors I'd be chucking the computer in the bin and running a wire from the battery to the coil...

Uhh-huh... and that's why guys like me used to be able to make a living making the EFI work after some yo-yo tried to do just that.  ;)

mnem
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Offline worsthorse

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #52219 on: March 14, 2020, 08:49:03 pm »
I think you will find that most of the devices that end up going to people like the LR Group and others are in fact either items that are only just outside the warranty period or still in the warranty but have deemed by the local Apple Store / genius bar to have suffered "liquid damage" and therefore are not covered by warranty as a result. When some of these machines find their way to LR for instance, and opened up, show zero signs of liquid damage other than one of the detection spots have changed colour and the fault has been discovered to be something as trivial as a ribbon cable not fully seated properly etc.

Others that have been liquid damaged, have been totally recovered and restored back to health again be the replacement of the chip which was subjected to the liquid damage resultant corrosion of the connections and or pads / traces and the repair carried out without any difficulties by the assistance of a donor board surrendering its chip or the pad / trace being rebuilt and all of this without the device being "bricked" or compromised in any way whatsoever.

As to the Secure Enclave, how does this prevent the items from repaired using genuine parts supplied by Apple I fail to see this argument being valid. As we know Linus had an accident with his new iMac Pro and admitted that he broke it and was willing to pay Apple to repair it for him, and their response was no, he would need to buy a complete new system costing thousands of $, they were not able to get the few parts required to fix it for him.


A couple of years ago, I was in the Himalayas doing a medical clinic. I had an old iPhone with me, loaded with maps, pharmaceutical databases, and other useful tools. One day, I got a little careless. The phone was in my unbuttoned shirt pocket and turned on. I bent over a stream to wash my hands... and watched the phone scribe an arc, splash into the water, and go dark.

It was probably in the water for fifteen seconds. I pulled it out, took it out of the bumper case, shook it dry, and put it in a plastic bag of white rice, which sat in the sun whenever we stopped for the day. I'd change the rice every day. After four days, the rice seemed to stop absorbing water and the inside of the bag was dry. I pressed the on button and the phone powered up.  I still use it for GPS, maps, etc and foreign phone service though my everyday phone is a slightly newer iphone that my mother-in-law decided was "too small" whenever whatever is the latest-and-greatest was released by apple last year.

Now I was really really lucky but I am also pretty sure that none of the cheap ass phones I carried before the iphone would have survived that episode. Are iphones overpriced? Sure, except when they are not.

EDIT: just for the record, i don't consider myself an apple fanboy. we have a pretty motley collection of machines around here, some of which are more than a decade old and my collection of everyday devices (depending on where i am in the world) includes two or three no name cellphones with keypads. i pretty much use shit until the electrons refuse to inhabit it anymore.  but to mnen's point, what apple does is very very expensive to replicate and their consumer level reputation for building shit that just works (whatever you think of the price/performance) is predicated on controlling every aspect of design, production, and after market repair.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2020, 08:57:42 pm by worsthorse »
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Offline worsthorse

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #52220 on: March 14, 2020, 08:51:14 pm »
And now for something completely different: A finished project!

My GPSDO has finally found a decent housing.

I added a small distribution amp. Inside view:



Front view (which gives the time and date of the photography away):



Onward to the next project! Can only take years ...  ;)

Nice work! Did you build a custom distribution amp?  What's driving the LCD screen?
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Offline AVGresponding

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #52221 on: March 14, 2020, 08:53:12 pm »
My first mobile phone was a Nokia 2140 aka Orange, back in 1995.

I used that sucker for 6 years, and although I managed never to immerse it, I did leave it on the roof of the car as I drove off on more than one occasion.

Legend has it, they eventually patched the potholes...   :-DD
nuqDaq yuch Dapol?
Addiction count: Agilent-AVO-BlackStar-Brymen-Chauvin Arnoux-Fluke-GenRad-Hameg-HP-Keithley-IsoTech-Mastech-Megger-Metrix-Micronta-Racal-RFL-Siglent-Solartron-Tektronix-Thurlby-Time Electronics-TTi-UniT
 

Offline med6753

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #52222 on: March 14, 2020, 08:55:22 pm »
You are willing to buy and put up with a cheap POS battery that has half the design life and half the real capacity (yes, deliberate exaggeration, but still nowhere near the same quality from your no-name supplier) as an original battery, you have that right. You do NOT have the right to EXPECT a manufacturer to help you do it. You ALSO don't have the right to expect them to supply you a part that requires expert installation when they don't know what kind of 1d10t you might be, and in their experience, those who want to DIY ARE 1d10ts, because they are NOT buying what Apple is selling, which is the Apple Ecology I've already described.

THAT  is the core problem... people buying Apple because "it's the hawtness" and hating them because it's not what they really want, which is "the new hawtness" without actually having to pay for it. :palm:

You don't have the right to expect them to support you in that unreasonable desire, or to design their product such that parts are easily replaceable just because you don't like it. Their design is what they're selling; the "sleek seamless thing" design is their stock in trade, FFS. :palm:

Same is true of the screen, and I've bought more than a few 3rd party screens... they are NOT anywhere near as good glass or digitizers. PERIOD. And the same is true of the buttons. They incorporate a security feature. That security feature was asked for by the majority of their customers. Your edge use-case is irrelevant here.

If you want the "Apple Hawtness", buy Apple product and be happy with it. If not, buy something else; Samsuck and Lucky GoldStar will gladly take your money. But FFS, stop bitching that Apple is Apple.

It's not like you didn't KNOW their phone/tablet/PC/dong polisher/WTF-ever was hermetically sealed when you bought it; it's a FUCKING ADVERTISED FEATURE.
:palm:

mnem
Just say "No, thank you."


What I'm saying is yes, Apple is known for their stock-in-trade of being sealed and sleek etc, but none of that removes their stance on the right to repair. I'm NOT on about the right to buy and fit poorly designed items from 3rd parties, but the right to having your device fixed by Apple or authorised agents BUT using genuine Apple replacement parts built to the same spec as originally fitted, the same is true for batteries then there wouldn't be a possible Grenfell 2, at a sensible and affordable price and within a reasonable time frame.

The same can be said for other manufacturers who have a similar outlook, the time has come to act responsibly, the planet cannot accept this amount of built-in throwaway concept. I do not for a single moment believe Louis Rossman would ever fit cheap counterfeit and dangerous parts in his repairs, this is why he and so many others are lobbing congress for the right to be able to access genuine parts so the original design integrity is maintained throughout the products' life. He and others are not seeking to have access to the code so that they can rewrite code, all they want is for the parts to be made accessible at sensible prices without the need for software locks etc. So if a digitizer is at fault, or the chip that handles the digitizer is faulty, then getting those parts etc from Apple and replacing them does not involve them in having access to the software so the software integrity remains 100% intact and no breach in security is made.


There is a whole world of "knee-deep in the hoopla" in what you suggest. Please bear with me; this is at least a 3-flagon move... :o

First off... I do not hold LR's "standards" in the high regard you do. I've seen him call "fixed" repairs I wouldn't let out the door under ANY circumstances; I would literally remove all of it and tell the customer it couldn't be repaired safely or reliably. I have no doubt that if he knew he could get away with it, he'd install the cheap shit; especially if he could phrase it as a "this is an almost as good (it's not) clone part; it costs 1/3 the real thing" decision and make it the customer's choice. I honestly have no doubt he does this off-screen all the time. He's a fucking carny barker, NOT a technician or disgruntled engineer as he might have you believe.

Now into the real hoopla...

Your analogy is faulty; the technology in question is NOT a necessity like a car or truck, it is a LUXURY. PERIOD. What they manufacture does not NEED to exist. As such, it is unreasonable to try and hold the manufacturers of such gear to the "repairability" standards reasonable for a car or house or furnace, for example. Even THOSE necessities are being driven by the corporate "The bottom line is the bottom line" mentality into providing repair as a "replace a module" rather than "replace a single part" scenario. As long as we as a species continue to worship the almighty Corporation, they will never change that mentality; repair rather than turnover is the antithesis of their very DNA. |O

Driven by customer demand, the technology involved in modern "portable computing" devices has been forced to develop some pretty sophisticated security technology of its own; many of these technologies are provided in hardware "jellybeans" that are like a sausage grinder: The signal goes in, a different signal comes out, but don't you DARE look at what goes on inside. Due to demands for end-user privacy, there is some VERY sensitive security-related technology in a modern phone or tablet... as in "National Security" type sensitive. The technology in many cases is such that a manufacturer is prohibited by contract or even international treaties or National Security regulations from selling that part EXCEPT as a component in a completed product. Keeping track of this is another thing that is EXPENSIVE, as is the need to keep how YOUR systems connect to that technology privileged.

Simply providing a schematic diagram of that is in many cases one of the first keys a ne'er-do-well needs to start exploiting that security. :palm:

And now we come down to the final bit... cost. Maintaining the kind of security a manufacturer like Apple needs comes with a lot of different kinds of cost; there's money, there's R&D IP, there's managing the physical security of the product being manufactured during manufacture & assembly by 3rd parties such that cheap copies of your product aren't released by other parties before you can deliver.

One of the key strategies in that particular aspect is also the most costly: compartmentalizing in the same way as we and Germany did during our wartime atomic weapons development. In a mass-production scenario, this means buying assemblies in huge lots, which then have to be meticulously accounted for until they're permanently part of that product. That has evolved into a completely different attitude towards repair than we consider normal for automobiles; that the BEST means of assuring security is to MAKE SURE EVERY PART MANUFACTURED ONLY COMES TO YOU. You have 110% of your assemblies made; you manufacture your 100% quantity of product, you save 10% for manufacturing failure rework and warranty repair, and you keep the rest for your service centers. PERIOD. Once you've done that transaction, the product is DONE. PERIOD. Not revisiting means no worries of countefeit parts made using your designs, and you can say with 100% confidence that any parts not installed by your ASPs is counterfeit.

By working this way, yes you annoy some people who think you should provide your luxury product at a price they consider reasonable... but you completely eliminate a huge security concern in OTHER PEOPLE'S ACCOUNTING of your sensitive hardware, while at the same time sidestepping a whole new and expensive ecosystem in "being a parts counter".

There's a reason for the old joke about "If you built a '57 Chevy out of parts, it would cost 1/4 million dollars" or whatever the numbers are now: being a parts distributor is a WHOLE ECOSYSTEM unto itself, and it is the keeping track of and storing those parts for resale that is what makes that collection of '57 Chevy parts so fucking expensive.

And finally... you wind up with the ages-old argument over what price for parts is "reasonable". If you actually had to pay cost of manufacture & delivery from overseas plus actual cost of SECURE warehousing, accounting, picking and shipping/restocking of say a new LCD/Digitizer... you'd realize that while the new part probably only costs 2-3x what the cheap clone part cost... it is the SECURE HANDLING that costs real money.

Now... add on top of that... the cost of managing all the training and reference to assist hacks like LR in "repairing" the completed product that is in fact your bread and butter... shit, you'd be building whole Universities to train people to properly repair these things. To train people to go to work doing cheap repairs of the luxury item which is your bread & butter, and which you KNOW that once they have that education, 4 out of 5 are going to install the cheap clone parts and fuck you up the arse, while at the same time costing you aggravation in dealing with illegitimate repairs as if they should be warrantied, and even worse, tarnishing your reputation with the people who actually HAVE bought into the whole aspirational "Upwards" branding that is your stock in trade.

You think an iPwn is expensive NOW? Adding the whole ecosystem of support ecosystems you suggest would TRIPLE the pricetag.  :scared:

You don't REALLY think a corporation would EAT that cost just to make a few whiny cheapasses happy, do you...?

mnem
*a not-whiny cheapass*


You expect me to read all that? Surely you jest.  :P :-DD
An old gray beard with an attitude.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #52223 on: March 14, 2020, 08:55:53 pm »
Yep.
One of the reasons I got a couple of spares when I got a class set of 15B's for a customer was they had a uA range and used just 2 AA's.
I've not been disappointed with it and know it's safe to measure anything within reason.
I looked recently and they're still ~$65.
If you can live without true RMS those models meant for low income markets are fairly attractive. Flukes are stupidly expensive compared to anything else and will never have the most features but the rock solid performance of the features they do have is hard to argue with.
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #52224 on: March 14, 2020, 08:57:51 pm »
You expect me to read all that? Surely you jest.  :P :-DD
You guys don't pay me enough to read all that. Rumour has it you guys don't pay me at all.
 


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