Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[Specmaster]

Hager stuff is nice. MK make a lot of their stuff in cheap far east sweatshops now, the quality has dropped a lot. BG are probably as good as MK nowadays.

Crabtree are good, I like Clipsal too, I think they are quite popular in Oz.

Correct, Hager is nice stuff, I worked for them for about 4 years after they acquired Ashley, Crabtree are the best, BG are OK and Clipsal are good. While I was working for Crabtree, I had the BBC as a major client, and they had were 100% Crabtree until they asked me to see if we could produce 2 new products for them, Crabtree's local management chose not to believe that the particular problem was a genuine one and would not back my request. Clipsal had been banging the BBC's door and although their products were made in Oz, in the space of 2 weeks they had made prototypes and submitted them to the BBC for testing. They passed their tests and were subsequently written into their specifications and all installations were Clipsal from then on. The products in question were, impact resistant sockets as their trolley mounted TV cameras kept crashing into the lower once and breaking them, and the other products were clean earth sockets, and for a while they did become massive requirements all over in the city and by the time Crabtree did get the message, it was too little too late.

[Specmaster]

30A and not 32A?

We're starting to use 4mm^2 radial circuits a lot more (commercial premises) as it removes the possibility of a ring-within-a-ring, amongst other things.


EDIT: One thing I've noticed recently is undersized conductors (ie supplied as 2.5mm^2 but actually as small as 2.2mm^2). Guess the manufacturers are cutting as many corners as they can get away with...

Yes, its 32A and the better consultant engineers are now speccing 4mmsq cable, especially in offices and commercial buildings. In domestic properties some still use 2.5mm cable because of the various diversity factors can be brought into play.

[grizewald]

That said, a couple of weeks with the scope and I'm liking it. The only time I'm less than fully chuffed is when using the horizontal position control (and to a lesser extent vertical position an trigger level controls), the laggardness makes you wonder whether you're turning the knob the right way.

My Rigol DS1054Z drives me mad with that! I was trying to position four traces on the screen earlier today when I looking at the clock board from my Solartron 7061 and it takes so long between twiddling the position knob and something happening on the screen it's crazy.

It's still hard to beat for features vs. price though which is the only reason I haven't sold it on and replaced it with a proper 'scope.

[mnementh]

You Brits and your ring circuits. Totally non-Kosher and would never fly here. 

Yet the statistics bear out our approach. Most recent annual statistics for UK domestic fires from malfunctions of fixed wiring 2152, USA 24,100; adjust for population difference (66,435,550 versus 329,968,629, ratio 1:4.996) gives: UK fires 2152, US adjusted 4852. Two and a quarter fires from US fixed wiring malfunctions for every one in the UK on a population adjusted basis. So, now who's kosher and who's treif?

I expect that has a lot more to do with standards enforcement than fundamental engineering principle. Over here electrical inspection is voluntary and a joke on anything except a brand-new construction. I have yet to live in a home where I didn't find some grossly negligent bit of wiring that should instantly have been red-flagged if there was ANY kind of electrical inspection mandated EVER. Even on rental properties and apartment complexes. 

Entirely too much "grandfathering" and "can't be arsed" and probably payola to "look the other way", though the latter really isn't even necessary as nonexistent as electrical inspection requirements are over here.

And we STILL use aluminum for our high-current mains feeds... the fact that exists 40 years after AL secondary household wiring was banned proves that AL CAN be used safely if properly handled. In general, I'm much more concerned about flammable oil-based plastic electrical boxes & push-in wiring still being legal than AL in-wall as a matter of principle.   

mnem
$$$ vs human lives = high death toll every time.

[Specmaster]

I never get used to this concept of the fuse in the plug. Is that really that helpful? 

With ring-mains it sort of becomes necessary.

The ring main does not make it any more necessary than a radial circuit does. It makes no sense fitting 1.5mmsq cable to a plug top that is just feeding a desk lamp and having to protect the cable with a 13A fuse, when you can easily get away with a far smaller sized cable and protect it with a fuse of say 1A.

[BU508A]

A friend has sent me this little gem:


I need this cup. 

[Specmaster]

And how do you distinguish between a cable with a 3A fuse and a 13A one? If you are going to use the wrong cable, then either it blows the fuse, or, the fuse doesn't really make sense imho.

The fuses are colour coded. You set the fuse to the rating of the cable that is on that plug, and obviously the cable should have a rating equal or higher than the connector on the other end (e.g. IEC connector). The fuses are there to protect the cable, not the equipment. The equipment should have its own appropriately rated fuse.

Yes, I understand this. But what I am curious about is: how does every Tom, Dick and Harry to get on with this? Does it happen, that soembody is whacking a 10A fuse into a 1A rated cable because they are all black and/or the proper fuse wasn't available? I do not expect that anybody here in this forum will have any problems at all to handle this correctly.
But for safety reasons it should also get on with the more "average" part of the people.

The truth is that the uninitiated will just stick a 13A fuse in everything, but thankfully the manufacturers of the equipment who fit the leads with the moulded on plug tops will automatically fit the correct fuse for the cable and load. Example, they might fit a 1.5mm cable not because of the loading of the appliance, but because of the improved mechanical rating of that cable, and that cable might be fitted to say a small fridge, or a hoover etc and then they would fit a fuse to protect the appliance, say a 3A or 5A one etc according to the actually loading of the appliance itself.

Proper BS rated plug top fuses should be colour coded 13A has Brown text, 3A has Red text as these are the normal fuses, the others are normally Black text although I have seen Black, Blue and Green on some ratings of the unusual ones such  as 1A, 5A and 10A.   

[Specmaster]

Getting crazy here today

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/124108537988

Its supposed to be a legally binding bid 

[Cerebus]

And we STILL use aluminum for our high-current mains feeds... the fact that exists 40 years after AL secondary household wiring was banned proves that AL CAN be used safely if properly handled.

Oh Al wiring is used here, but only in circumstances where: (1) the people using it can be trusted to follow proper and appropriate termination techniques (especially when moving to non-aluminium conductors) and, (2) it can be, and is, regularly inspected. Domestic installations are not the places where those rules are likely to be met. Much, if not all, of the overhead HV distribution network is Al.

Where it's potentially lethal is where someone buries a screwed Al => Cu/brass junction in a slightly damp (but not damp enough not to catch fire) stud partition.

[bsudbrink]

I think your "stats" fail to take into account a few things.

First, we were the first country to electrify. Many residences have OLD wiring, including "knob and tube" wiring. Ever see that stuff? Scary.

Second, higher average currents due to fact that we stayed with 120V/60Hz.

Third, the numb nuts that decided aluminum wiring in residences would work. 

This past summer, I got the last of the copper clad aluminum wire out of my house.  I sleep much better now.

[Kosmic]

If someone is into electrometer there's a cheap one on ebay https://www.ebay.com/itm/223940705071

[URI]

That said, a couple of weeks with the scope and I'm liking it. The only time I'm less than fully chuffed is when using the horizontal position control (and to a lesser extent vertical position an trigger level controls), the laggardness makes you wonder whether you're turning the knob the right way.

My Rigol DS1054Z drives me mad with that! I was trying to position four traces on the screen earlier today when I looking at the clock board from my Solartron 7061 and it takes so long between twiddling the position knob and something happening on the screen it's crazy.

It's still hard to beat for features vs. price though which is the only reason I haven't sold it on and replaced it with a proper 'scope.

I bought a Siglent SDS1104x-e as my second unit but daily driver* after some research and comparing it to the Rigol DS1054Z.
I like it; It's not so laggy as the Rigol and has the younger (perhaps "fresher") design and -according to many postings on the net- less bugs and design flaws.

--
*-For the purpose of avoiding too much wear of my first unit, a DSO-X3034A.

[Specmaster]

If someone is into electrometer there's a cheap one on ebay https://www.ebay.com/itm/223940705071

Or rather there was 

[Cerebus]

If someone is into electrometer there's a cheap one on ebay https://www.ebay.com/itm/223940705071

By the time I looked, 3 mins ago, it had already gone.

[bd139]

That said, a couple of weeks with the scope and I'm liking it. The only time I'm less than fully chuffed is when using the horizontal position control (and to a lesser extent vertical position an trigger level controls), the laggardness makes you wonder whether you're turning the knob the right way.

My Rigol DS1054Z drives me mad with that! I was trying to position four traces on the screen earlier today when I looking at the clock board from my Solartron 7061 and it takes so long between twiddling the position knob and something happening on the screen it's crazy.

It's still hard to beat for features vs. price though which is the only reason I haven't sold it on and replaced it with a proper 'scope.

I bought a Siglent SDS1104x-e as my second unit but daily driver* after some research and comparing it to the Rigol DS1054Z.
I like it; It's not so laggy as the Rigol and has the younger (perhaps "fresher") design and -according to many postings on the net- less bugs and design flaws.

--
*-For the purpose of avoiding too much wear of my first unit, a DSO-X3034A.

I may end up with a Siglent if I can spend some time on one in the near future.

[worsthorse]

You keep going back to a Rigol, it seems to be an ever lasting circle of life with you and Rigol locked in a love / hate relationship, you need a nice Marconi or HP unit.

The Rigol units are pretty good - I honestly like 'em. I'm mostly just "renting" them by buying one when I need one and selling it when I don't as they don't depreciate a lot due to the high demand and idiots on ebay. This has an aggregate lower TCO (~£5/month) than owning a Marconi or HP unit as they are (((RF -or- function generators) -and- unreliable) -or- bloody expensive)  . Also if you do this it minimises failure risk outside warranty and your entire capital getting wiped out in one go.

Plus you get to open new shiny things regularly 

Buying and selling the same gear again and again.  Man, that sounds like a lot of work. I get the lower TCO, yeah, but what's your time worth?

[Kosmic]

If someone is into electrometer there's a cheap one on ebay https://www.ebay.com/itm/223940705071

Or rather there was 

Well was a good deal. I already have one of those so I tried to restrain myself 

[bd139]

You keep going back to a Rigol, it seems to be an ever lasting circle of life with you and Rigol locked in a love / hate relationship, you need a nice Marconi or HP unit.

The Rigol units are pretty good - I honestly like 'em. I'm mostly just "renting" them by buying one when I need one and selling it when I don't as they don't depreciate a lot due to the high demand and idiots on ebay. This has an aggregate lower TCO (~£5/month) than owning a Marconi or HP unit as they are (((RF -or- function generators) -and- unreliable) -or- bloody expensive)  . Also if you do this it minimises failure risk outside warranty and your entire capital getting wiped out in one go.

Plus you get to open new shiny things regularly 

Buying and selling the same gear again and again.  Man, that sounds like a lot of work. I get the lower TCO, yeah, but what's your time worth?

Just chuck it in the box and UPS collects it. What work? 

[worsthorse]

Buying and selling the same gear again and again.  Man, that sounds like a lot of work. I get the lower TCO, yeah, but what's your time worth?

Just chuck it in the box and UPS collects it. What work? 

hmmm... just chuck in the box? 

[bd139]

Well chuck it in the box properly I mean 

[Ice-Tea]

Getting my first *ever* tuuubbbzzzzz gear in tomorrow 

[Specmaster]

@bd139, how about one of these function gen, any good for your problem? https://www.bidspotter.co.uk/en-gb/auction-catalogues/hunt4auctions/catalogue-id-hunt-410053/lot-e445a80c-6fe6-47a2-bb9a-ab76008c0e35

[bd139]

Rebadged GW Instek ones. Probably go for more than they are worth at those things. Anyway - DG822 arriving tomorrow so too late now 

DG822 can be cracked to turn it into a DG922 which will give you (with some calibration error) 100MHz arb worth a few quid more https://www.rigol-uk.co.uk/Rigol-DG992-Waveform-Generator-p/dg992.htm

Edit: also DGxx does two tone one one channel which means you can do linearity testing easily.

Edit: also this looks like fun https://youtu.be/9rFvFh8yjCs

[mnementh]

Buying and selling the same gear again and again.  Man, that sounds like a lot of work. I get the lower TCO, yeah, but what's your time worth?

Just chuck it in the box and UPS collects it. What work? 

hmmm... just chuck in the box? 

Yeah... just like Chuck vs the Crown Vic ...   

mnem
 

[worsthorse]

Rebadged GW Instek ones. Probably go for more than they are worth at those things. Anyway - DG822 arriving tomorrow so too late now 

DG822 can be cracked to turn it into a DG922 which will give you (with some calibration error) 100MHz arb worth a few quid more https://www.rigol-uk.co.uk/Rigol-DG992-Waveform-Generator-p/dg992.htm

Edit: also DGxx does two tone one one channel which means you can do linearity testing easily.

Edit: also this looks like fun https://youtu.be/9rFvFh8yjCs

I did the upgrade and for someone like me, living in less-than-100-MHz-two-significant-digit reality, it was a bargain. The biggest interface problems: the touch screen is a little squirrelly and the power button is just plain stupid: too small, upside down, and in the wrong place.

Plus I can still pull out the 6061 or an 8460B if I really need something more...

Only thing I haven't figured out is how to keep the upgrade and update the firmware to take advantage of a couple of recent bug fixes. Have to go back and read through the thread here on that one more time.