Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[URI]

Done. This one was easy.




Verified and back on duty.

Nice! 
The spaceship is counting again!   

I also did some recapping on my blue-faced HP 3456A voltmeter today because it was not happy and threw an error 4 when in self-testing.
I checked the voltage rails and 33V was an AC voltage with 5V DC offset. 
Having discovered that I looked at the voltage rails with my analogue scope and discovered rail -18V had a ripple on it.

I had to swap two caps that were completely dead (some pF left of 470/100µF) and a third one that still had its capacity but a high ESR failure:


All other caps measured well within spec and with small ESR values <<1ohm.

Now it seems like this repaired unit has less noise than the two other I measured the noise comparing different integration times.
Well, I think I have to check those two other units as well now..

[AVGresponding]

But what about the Tants?

Well first....I never seem to have issues with the tants in Fluke gear. I think Fluke was more conservative than Tek when it came rating them. And second, I have a service manual for the 7260A but no schematics. So I have no idea what values those tants are. 

Well the ones decoupling the 74 series ICs are likely 1uF, and "conservative" would be 16V. Paranoid would be 25V...


EDIT: Just realised, my font colour is perfect for this thread, it's teal!     (yes, I was very slow to notice this, but no-one else seems to have picked up on it either     )

[Kosmic]

The Seebeck effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_effect) is unfortunately really real and is the reason why we have cheap temperature probe (thermocouple). Most of the time though, as temperature equilibrate the effect mostly goes away after couple minutes. But you can easily see multiple uV when coupling nickel plated binding post to a piece of copper. Like others mentioned it's starting to be a problem at 6.5 digits.

I should also had mentioned that my current goal is to replace the awful Fischer connectors on all my 7.5 and 8.5 digits Solartron multimeters.

Yes, the Seebeck effect is real, no question. But if you are measuring voltages like med (eg. B+ with hundreds of volts) the Seebeck effect doesn't really matter. It does matter when you want to determine the stability and/or noise of a voltage reference. Or when you are in the business of energy harvesting, for example. Neither I can see this with med, just some peanuts in his gear (which is another story) :-)

Agreed. Depending of the use case, it might not be important.

My comment was not so much related to the usage med is doing of it's multimeters but to the similitude with "audiophoolery".

[beanflying]

So shopping. Hardware shop plenty of Masks both disposable and proper cartridge ones  No one seen is the streets wearing masks so clearly no panic in town.

(Attachment Link)

  sheeple

(Attachment Link)

But there certainly seems to a panic hike in prices of disposable masks by the look of things, surely?

Not really good quality P2's are about that price normally. I brought a box of cheap masks a few months ago and they were well over $20 and at the time others were around the $50. Between my Beard and sanding outside wearing a mask just helps a bit so I cheaped out, I should have a positive pressure face shield but the $$ are a bit much.

[med6753]

Yet. First 8000A I got they were pretty nasty. One of them had pulled a rail down so hard the pass transistor on the power supply had actually overheated and had a beta of about 3 

Yep. There was that one rare occasion in an 8010A where a bad tant killed ACV. But that's the only one I can recall. 

[AVGresponding]

I had to swap two caps that were completely dead (some pF left of 470/100µF) and a third one that still had its capacity but a high ESR failure:
(Attachment Link)

Hmm I just noticed the voltage ratings on those caps, 0-35 and 0-50. Can't say as I've ever seen that before, though ofc I'm aware (vaguely) that effective capacitance varies with applied voltage.
Is this an example of over-zealous application of specifications to the casing?

[grizewald]

EDIT: Just realised, my font colour is perfect for this thread, it's teal!     (yes, I was very slow to notice this, but no-one else seems to have picked up on it either     )[/color][/b]

If my cup of PG-tips turned out the same teal colour as your posts, I'd be very worried indeed!

[AVGresponding]

In your case, I'd just assume "patriotic milk" (Sveridge flag is gold and teal     ).

But I still wouldn't drink it...

[mnementh]

Have we become as obsessive as the audiophool trying to get his system's total harmonic distortion from an inaudible 0.02% to 0.01% ? Is this our ultimate fate? To be just like them?

"Low thermal EMF binding posts" to gain one more least significant digit confidence out of an 8.5 digit DMM. Are we just as nuts as they are? 

The lines between reality and fantasy are blurred. 

I'm no volt nut, more of a frequency person. But, and this is a very important but, what them voltnuts are doing is measuring things. The Audiophool, OTOH, hails subjective judgement to the degree that he does not want to be disturbed by readily observable facts.

I'm in agreement with med6753 here, even the improvement made by Audiophool's CAN be measured by the right equipment so his analogy stands. There comes a point when seeking absolute perfection is undetectable by people using the equipment that nature provided us with and in that respect I must agree with him.

I see your point but I don't fully agree:
Low thermal EMF binding posts have a measurable effect, you obviously need suited measures to measure and objectively prove their influence on sensitive signals. Using a 3 1/2 digit multimeter and denying the effect of low thermal EMF materials is no point to compare volt nuts with Audiphools in my opinion.

On the other hand: I want to see the the equipment needed to prove by objective measurement that foam blocks for getting the speaker cables some inches above the floor shall result in a lighter, not so earthy sound (been there, heard that from an Audiophool).   

For med it doesn't make any difference, if he is using low-thermal EMF binding posts or not, when he is measuring the B+ voltage with 3 1/2, 4 1/2 or 5 1/2 digits

The Seebeck effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_effect) is unfortunately really real and is the reason why we have cheap temperature probe (thermocouple). Most of the time though, as temperature equilibrate the effect mostly goes away after couple minutes. But you can easily see multiple uV when coupling nickel plated binding post to a piece of copper. Like others mentioned it's starting to be a problem at 6.5 digits.

I should also had mentioned that my current goal is to replace the awful Fischer connectors on all my 7.5 and 8.5 digits Solartron multimeters.

We all know that the stuff you voltnuts measure is REAL... none of us deny the clear and incontrovertible evidence. But when you get to the point where you've divided the indivisible so many times (measuring to so many digits) that side effects of outre' theoretical physics actually impact the accuracy or repeatability of your measurements to a significant degree, it is time to ask yourself "DOES THIS REALLY NEED TO BE MEASURED???"

I'm not talking about the fundamental spiritual "need" that voltnuts have to get that last digit... that is an engineering thing that I both grok in fullness and can respect. 

I'm talking about the more essential question of... "Does anything I'm doing at work or at play (ASIDE FROM THE VOLTNUTTERY ) actually REQUIRE this level of accuracy...?"

I spent my time on the floor and in the cubicles; designing, reverse-engineering, troubleshooting and doing rework... and without exception, the answer would have to be... I have never NEEDED more than 5 1/2 digits, and in most cases I have honestly never needed even 4. Projects I worked on in my engineering lifetime ranged from aerospace to consumer and industrial electronics and automated manufacturing.

Carefully reviewing that experience, it is my considered opinion that unless you are in the business of providing/producing/servicing test gear, or some kind of laboratory work directly or indirectly related to theoretical physics (admittedly, at some point, ALL technology does go through that stage) most engineers in most scenarios don't NEED more than that either.

You know the old Ian Malcolm quote: "...but your people were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should." It applies to the smaller, everyday choices as well.

mnem
FLUKE sez BAM!!!

[SilverSolder]

Have we become as obsessive as the audiophool trying to get his system's total harmonic distortion from an inaudible 0.02% to 0.01% ? Is this our ultimate fate? To be just like them?

"Low thermal EMF binding posts" to gain one more least significant digit confidence out of an 8.5 digit DMM. Are we just as nuts as they are? 

The lines between reality and fantasy are blurred. 

I'm no volt nut, more of a frequency person. But, and this is a very important but, what them voltnuts are doing is measuring things. The Audiophool, OTOH, hails subjective judgement to the degree that he does not want to be disturbed by readily observable facts.

I'm in agreement with med6753 here, even the improvement made by Audiophool's CAN be measured by the right equipment so his analogy stands. There comes a point when seeking absolute perfection is undetectable by people using the equipment that nature provided us with and in that respect I must agree with him.

I see your point but I don't fully agree:
Low thermal EMF binding posts have a measurable effect, you obviously need suited measures to measure and objectively prove their influence on sensitive signals. Using a 3 1/2 digit multimeter and denying the effect of low thermal EMF materials is no point to compare volt nuts with Audiphools in my opinion.

On the other hand: I want to see the the equipment needed to prove by objective measurement that foam blocks for getting the speaker cables some inches above the floor shall result in a lighter, not so earthy sound (been there, heard that from an Audiophool).   

For med it doesn't make any difference, if he is using low-thermal EMF binding posts or not, when he is measuring the B+ voltage with 3 1/2, 4 1/2 or 5 1/2 digits

The Seebeck effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_effect) is unfortunately really real and is the reason why we have cheap temperature probe (thermocouple). Most of the time though, as temperature equilibrate the effect mostly goes away after couple minutes. But you can easily see multiple uV when coupling nickel plated binding post to a piece of copper. Like others mentioned it's starting to be a problem at 6.5 digits.

I should also had mentioned that my current goal is to replace the awful Fischer connectors on all my 7.5 and 8.5 digits Solartron multimeters.

We all know that the stuff you voltnuts measure is REAL... none of us deny the clear and incontrovertible evidence. But when you get to the point where you've divided the indivisible so many times (measuring to so many digits) that side effects of outre' theoretical physics actually impact the accuracy or repeatability of your measurements to a significant degree, it is time to ask yourself "DOES THIS REALLY NEED TO BE MEASURED???"

I'm not talking about the fundamental spiritual "need" that voltnuts have to get that last digit... that is an engineering thing that I both grok in fullness and can respect. 

I'm talking about the more essential question of... "Does anything I'm doing at work or at play (ASIDE FROM THE VOLTNUTTERY ) actually REQUIRE this level of accuracy...?"

I spent my time on the floor and in the cubicles; designing, reverse-engineering, troubleshooting and doing rework... and without exception, the answer would have to be... I have never NEEDED more than 5 1/2 digits, and in most cases I have honestly never needed even 4. Projects I worked on in my engineering lifetime ranged from aerospace to consumer and industrial electronics and automated manufacturing.

Carefully reviewing that experience, it is my considered opinion that unless you are in the business of providing/producing/servicing test gear, or some kind of laboratory work directly or indirectly related to theoretical physics (admittedly, at some point, ALL technology does go through that stage) most engineers in most scenarios don't NEED more than that either.

You know the old Ian Malcolm quote: "...but your people were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should." It applies to the smaller, everyday choices as well.

mnem
FLUKE sez BAM!!!

Think of it this way:  When is a woman too beautiful?  -  this is what drives both audiophools and voltnuts, I suspect.  Are they wrong?

[AVGresponding]

Ut-oh, the dragon awakens...

We all know that the stuff you voltnuts measure is REAL... none of us deny the clear and incontrovertible evidence. But when you get to the point where you've divided the indivisible so many times (measuring to so many digits) that side effects of outre' theoretical physics actually impact the accuracy or repeatability of your measurements to a significant degree, it is time to ask yourself "DOES THIS REALLY NEED TO BE MEASURED???"

Yes.

I'm not talking about the fundamental spiritual "need" that voltnuts have to get that last digit... that is an engineering thing that I both grok in fullness and can respect. 

I'm talking about the more essential question of... "Does anything I'm doing at work or at play (ASIDE FROM THE VOLTNUTTERY ) actually REQUIRE this level of accuracy...?"

No.

I spent my time on the floor and in the cubicles; designing, reverse-engineering, troubleshooting and doing rework... and without exception, the answer would have to be... I have never NEEDED more than 5 1/2 digits, and in most cases I have honestly never needed even 4. Projects I worked on in my engineering lifetime ranged from aerospace to consumer and industrial electronics and automated manufacturing.

Maybe...

Carefully reviewing that experience, it is my considered opinion that unless you are in the business of providing/producing/servicing test gear, or some kind of laboratory work directly or indirectly related to theoretical physics (admittedly, at some point, ALL technology does go through that stage) most engineers in most scenarios don't NEED more than that either.

(oh,) I don't know...

You know the old Ian Malcolm quote: "...but your people were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should." It applies to the smaller, everyday choices as well.

Could you repeat the question?

mnem
FLUKE sez BAM!!!

(Malcolm In The Middle)

[xrunner]

We all know that the stuff you voltnuts measure is REAL... none of us deny the clear and incontrovertible evidence. But when you get to the point where you've divided the indivisible so many times (measuring to so many digits) that side effects of outre' theoretical physics actually impact the accuracy or repeatability of your measurements to a significant degree, it is time to ask yourself "DOES THIS REALLY NEED TO BE MEASURED???"

Dang.

Your're going to get your TEA membership revoked with that sort of talk. 

[mnementh]

Come on guys... don't just quote me out of context like that. I very clearly and prominently acknowledged the core value of voltnuttery, and gave it due props. Y'all know better.  

Yes, I was deliberately stirring the pot... but at the same time, agreeing with med in this rare case where he was the voice of reason.

I had to swap two caps that were completely dead (some pF left of 470/100µF) and a third one that still had its capacity but a high ESR failure:
(Attachment Link)

Hmm I just noticed the voltage ratings on those caps, 0-35 and 0-50. Can't say as I've ever seen that before, though ofc I'm aware (vaguely) that effective capacitance varies with applied voltage.
Is this an example of over-zealous application of specifications to the casing?

It is an affectation that SPRAGUE makes no apologies for. They "went through a phase" of using that to indicate it is a polarized capacitor.

mnem

[med6753]

Think of it this way:  When is a woman too beautiful?  -  this is what drives both audiophools and voltnuts, I suspect.  Are they wrong?

No matter how beautiful a woman is there is always some guy, some where, who is tried of her shit. 

[mnementh]

Ut-oh, the dragon awakens...

We all know that the stuff you voltnuts measure is REAL... none of us deny the clear and incontrovertible evidence. But when you get to the point where you've divided the indivisible so many times (measuring to so many digits) that side effects of outre' theoretical physics actually impact the accuracy or repeatability of your measurements to a significant degree, it is time to ask yourself "DOES THIS REALLY NEED TO BE MEASURED???"

Yes.

I'm not talking about the fundamental spiritual "need" that voltnuts have to get that last digit... that is an engineering thing that I both grok in fullness and can respect. 

I'm talking about the more essential question of... "Does anything I'm doing at work or at play (ASIDE FROM THE VOLTNUTTERY ) actually REQUIRE this level of accuracy...?"

No.

I spent my time on the floor and in the cubicles; designing, reverse-engineering, troubleshooting and doing rework... and without exception, the answer would have to be... I have never NEEDED more than 5 1/2 digits, and in most cases I have honestly never needed even 4. Projects I worked on in my engineering lifetime ranged from aerospace to consumer and industrial electronics and automated manufacturing.

Maybe...

Carefully reviewing that experience, it is my considered opinion that unless you are in the business of providing/producing/servicing test gear, or some kind of laboratory work directly or indirectly related to theoretical physics (admittedly, at some point, ALL technology does go through that stage) most engineers in most scenarios don't NEED more than that either.

(oh,) I don't know...

You know the old Ian Malcolm quote: "...but your people were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should." It applies to the smaller, everyday choices as well.

Could you repeat the question?

mnem
FLUKE sez BAM!!!

(Malcolm In The Middle)

Life is unfair... 

mnem
"Let us think the unthinkable, let us do the undoable, let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all." ~ Douglas Adams

[mnementh]

Think of it this way:  When is a woman too beautiful?  -  this is what drives both audiophools and voltnuts, I suspect.  Are they wrong?

No matter how beautiful a woman is there is always some guy, some where, who is tried of her shit. 

Pssssttt... spell-check hosed you a little there. Unless you are in fact suggesting that all beautiful women need to be tried... 

mnem
Would that be "tried on for size" or "tried before a jury etc"...?

[Kosmic]

I'm talking about the more essential question of... "Does anything I'm doing at work or at play (ASIDE FROM THE VOLTNUTTERY ) actually REQUIRE this level of accuracy...?"

I understand that it's hard to believe, but everything I'm doing here in my basement is purely a hobby. Is it require ? hell no. But i'm definitely having fun 

[med6753]

Think of it this way:  When is a woman too beautiful?  -  this is what drives both audiophools and voltnuts, I suspect.  Are they wrong?

No matter how beautiful a woman is there is always some guy, some where, who is tried of her shit. 

Pssssttt... spell-check hosed you a little there. Unless you are in fact suggesting that all beautiful women need to be tried... 

mnem
Would that be "tried on for size" or "tried before a jury etc"...?

Yep, I hosed that. TIRED. 

[mnementh]

We all know that the stuff you voltnuts measure is REAL... none of us deny the clear and incontrovertible evidence. But when you get to the point where you've divided the indivisible so many times (measuring to so many digits) that side effects of outre' theoretical physics actually impact the accuracy or repeatability of your measurements to a significant degree, it is time to ask yourself "DOES THIS REALLY NEED TO BE MEASURED???"

Dang.

Your're going to get your TEA membership revoked with that sort of talk. 

Naaahhh... we all know that TEA members are "irreversibly contaminated".

mnem

[AVGresponding]

Think of it this way:  When is a woman too beautiful?  -  this is what drives both audiophools and voltnuts, I suspect.  Are they wrong?

No matter how beautiful a woman is there is always some guy, some where, who is tried of her shit. 

Pssssttt... spell-check hosed you a little there. Unless you are in fact suggesting that all beautiful women need to be tried... 

mnem
Would that be "tried on for size" or "tried before a jury etc"...?

Yep, I hosed that. TIRED. 

I prefer "tried for size"

[WastelandTek]

Think of it this way:  When is a woman too beautiful?  -  this is what drives both audiophools and voltnuts, I suspect.  Are they wrong?

No matter how beautiful a woman is there is always some guy, some where, who is tried of her shit. 

truth

[bd139]

Oh the stupids have invaded here now. There is no toilet roll, tea bags or pot noodles in my local area now    Not that I needed any of them.

[bd139]

]
Think of it this way:  When is a woman too beautiful?  -  this is what drives both audiophools and voltnuts, I suspect.  Are they wrong?

One goes to his pimp and pays big money for a crack whore with track marks covered arms and ass implants and hangs around in the dark. The other knows of the flaws but sees the beauty within.

[BU508A]

We all know that the stuff you voltnuts measure is REAL... none of us deny the clear and incontrovertible evidence. But when you get to the point where you've divided the indivisible so many times (measuring to so many digits) that side effects of outre' theoretical physics actually impact the accuracy or repeatability of your measurements to a significant degree, it is time to ask yourself "DOES THIS REALLY NEED TO BE MEASURED???"

I'm not talking about the fundamental spiritual "need" that voltnuts have to get that last digit... that is an engineering thing that I both grok in fullness and can respect. 

I'm talking about the more essential question of... "Does anything I'm doing at work or at play (ASIDE FROM THE VOLTNUTTERY ) actually REQUIRE this level of accuracy...?"

I spent my time on the floor and in the cubicles; designing, reverse-engineering, troubleshooting and doing rework... and without exception, the answer would have to be... I have never NEEDED more than 5 1/2 digits, and in most cases I have honestly never needed even 4. Projects I worked on in my engineering lifetime ranged from aerospace to consumer and industrial electronics and automated manufacturing.

Carefully reviewing that experience, it is my considered opinion that unless you are in the business of providing/producing/servicing test gear, or some kind of laboratory work directly or indirectly related to theoretical physics (admittedly, at some point, ALL technology does go through that stage) most engineers in most scenarios don't NEED more than that either.

You know the old Ian Malcolm quote: "...but your people were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should." It applies to the smaller, everyday choices as well.

mnem
FLUKE sez BAM!!!

There is a very simple answer:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/volt-nut-meeting-2019-in-stuttgartgermany/msg2951420/#msg2951420

*hibbel*

          

[bd139]

Just noticed something on W7ZOI's web site. Identify the enclosure used here...