Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[med6753]

Me and that comfy chair have been together a long time.....longer than some of my relationships. 

[Specmaster]

No "Idioten Kaufen Einfach Alles" here.  Everything you see in this photo was custom built by me with 2 exceptions. The shelf that the Sony ICF-5500W is on and just barely visible in the far corner the cart with the white printer.

And I make no claims as to being a carpenter or cabinet maker. Regular hand/power tools, good planning, and measure twice and cut once. 

Did you actually make those louvre doors?

[med6753]

No, the louver doors were purchased but I had to modify them and cut them to proper size.

[Mr. Scram]

Ikea can be quite decent. You just have to avoid the bottom rung stuff of which the price is the best quality and which was designed to draw people in. The more decent stuff can easily cost a couple of times as much at other places with worse quality control. The upper tier stuff isn't that much cheaper than elsewhere. It's fine but other interesting options tend to be available.

[Specmaster]

All I can see say about you chaps and your disdain towards Ikea is, either we have different  products and quality to you guys or, perhaps a different pricing policy. Yes there are loads in Ikea that is just well basically, crap. Equally, however there are some very good quality products and I think it is much the same anything else, you get what you pay for. Or it may be just that you guys have plenty of choice that you can go from shop to shop and still at the end of the day walk away with whatever you chose. That is a luxury that we don't have in the UK, well, certainly not in my part of the country.

[mnementh]

Short version: I've never been fully satisfied with the results of a shopping trip to Ikea, and I've been numerous times. I can't make it simpler than that.

mnem
Cornflakes & pee; The breakfast of Champions!!!

[Mr. Scram]

all this discussion about 3D printing makes me checking for a printer for myself.
I'm tending to buy a Prusa i3 MK3S (self assembling), looking at all these tests.
Even the German Make: Magazin 05/2019 (heise.de) recommends this printer.

But the Ender 3 Pro is also looking promising. What I do not understand: why is the Prusa
3-times more expensive than the Ender? *scratching head*

Looking at the construction of the Prusa gives me more confidence than to the Ender 3 but I cannot nail it down to some dedicated points.
It's more like a guts-feeling.

Will watch this further ...

Ender 3 Pro:
https://www.creality3dofficial.com/products/creality-ender-3-pro-3d-printer

Prusa i3 MK3S:
https://shop.prusa3d.com/en/3d-printers/180-original-prusa-i3-mk3-kit.html#/7-color-black_and_orange/51-spring_steel_sheet-both_sheets

ALL3DP reviews:

Ender 3 Pro:
https://all3dp.com/1/creality-ender-3-pro-3d-printer-review/

Prusa i3 MK3S:
https://all3dp.com/1/original-prusa-i3-mk3-review/

Prusa has great support and offers upgrade paths to new developments. If you're a prosumer they're an interesting intermediate between consumer printers and the rather expensive enterprise options. Price wise they're obviously not going to compete with the Chinese industrial complex but the designs tend to be tried and tested.

[Mr. Scram]

Short version: I've never been fully satisfied with the results of a shopping trip to Ikea, and I've been numerous times. I can't make it simpler than that.

mnem
Cornflakes & pee; The breakfast of Champions!!!

Rubbish in, rubbish out.   

[grizewald]

I think I might have a winner!



Ambient temperature is 24°C. The temperature adjusted voltage of a saturated Weston cell at 24°C should be 1.01842V (1990 definition of the volt).

[Mr. Scram]

At least you know your Weston cell and voltmeter have drifted the same amount.  Very nice!

[Specmaster]

I think I might have a winner!



Ambient temperature is 24°C. The temperature adjusted voltage of a saturated Weston cell at 24°C should be 1.01842V (1990 definition of the volt).

Yep, I agree 100%, I have 2 of their meters (not quite the same as yours) 7150 Plus which are 6.5 digits and I'm happy with them. I'm afraid that yours is just too large for my little bench / lab otherwise I'd love one. That blue display reminds me of my old Passat which had that same shade of blue on the dash instrument lighting 

[mnementh]

The PRUSAs are 90% elitist wankery, plain & simple. Yeah, sure they were the first to "market" back in the day. Get a decent 8040 extrusion based chassis with all metal frame parts and you're already ahead of the game; fuck PRUSA and their stupid shit frames made of printed shit. 

The Ender 3 is a fabulous starter OR 2nd machine; They are 90% preassembled so you know it's gonna work right out of the box, so you can get right into the "fine-tuning" aspect instead of "did I put that roller on the wrong side of the channel...?" etc first build headaches. Really, there is no way you can go wrong at the price of the thing unless you buy it from some markup wankmeister store.

The only qualifier I'd make to that is that if you can afford a little more, seek out and buy one of the other models with a dual-Z upgrade and ceramic heated bed (even if it has the Build-Tak surface on there and you have to peel it off) already included. Those would be my #1 & #2 features over the Ender 3/Ender 3 Pro.

Thanks for your loud and clear words.  I appreciate that.

I did a little search with google. just to verify:
You are talking about these things?

The ceramic bed:
https://www.creality3dofficial.com/products/creality-new-upgraded-heated-bed-build-plate-surface

And the dual-z-axis upgrade:
https://www.aliexpress.com/i/33008433245.html

Strange thing is: I didn't find it on the Creality website. Maybe I'm overlooking something? 

No, the glass build plate is a different thing. I'm talking about the heated bed itself, made of ceramic. These seem to be MUCH more stable in general than the aluminum ones. I don't know if CReality offers that anymore; it may only be aftermarket or on certain models. I think CReality only offers Dual-Z on one of the more expensive CR-10 models.

@bean - You know the CReality lineup better than I do; can you elucidate?

mnem
*fixing... things.*

[mnementh]

all this discussion about 3D printing makes me checking for a printer for myself.
I'm tending to buy a Prusa i3 MK3S (self assembling), looking at all these tests.
Even the German Make: Magazin 05/2019 (heise.de) recommends this printer.

But the Ender 3 Pro is also looking promising. What I do not understand: why is the Prusa
3-times more expensive than the Ender? *scratching head*

Looking at the construction of the Prusa gives me more confidence than to the Ender 3 but I cannot nail it down to some dedicated points.
It's more like a guts-feeling.

Will watch this further ...

Ender 3 Pro:
https://www.creality3dofficial.com/products/creality-ender-3-pro-3d-printer

Prusa i3 MK3S:
https://shop.prusa3d.com/en/3d-printers/180-original-prusa-i3-mk3-kit.html#/7-color-black_and_orange/51-spring_steel_sheet-both_sheets

ALL3DP reviews:

Ender 3 Pro:
https://all3dp.com/1/creality-ender-3-pro-3d-printer-review/

Prusa i3 MK3S:
https://all3dp.com/1/original-prusa-i3-mk3-review/

Prusa has great support and offers upgrade paths to new developments. If you're a prosumer they're an interesting intermediate between consumer printers and the rather expensive enterprise options. Price wise they're obviously not going to compete with the Chinese industrial complex but the designs tend to be tried and tested.

Yeah, as opposed to the CR-10 that just works out of the box. 

I've done the PRUSA thing. Most of their "support" is community-based; just like the Chinese stuff. Difference is PRUSA stubbornly clings to the fucking idiotic "a 3D printer is one of the few tools that can make itself" mantra. Bullshit. 

You want good prints, you need to start with a machine that is straight, rigid and square. You get all that as a property of the material it's made from with an 8020 extrusion frame and metal brackets; with the PRUSA, you HAVE TO FUCK WITH IT FOR DAYS to get it that way because mission-critical parts are made of low-precision printed plastic. And because the plastic flows, it will drift out of alignment and reqire realignment. Yet somehow, the fanatics have made the NEED to fuck with it constantly into something somehow better than "It just plain works".

If your experience with 3DP is based on the PRUSA forums, no wonder you think all 3DPrinters require constant fettling.    If you buy PRUSA, they STILL DO. 

Short version: PRUSA=LINUX CReality=Windows FormLabs=Apple. Pick your priorities and dive in.

mnem
Pants are highly overrated.

[bd139]

Totally agree 

[Mr. Scram]

Yeah, as opposed to the CR-10 that just works out of the box. 

I've done the PRUSA thing. Most of their "support" is community-based; just like the Chinese stuff. Difference is PRUSA stubbornly clings to the fucking idiotic "a 3D printer is one of the few tools that can make itself" mantra. Bullshit. 

You want good prints, you need to start with a machine that is straight, rigid and square. You get all that as a property of the material it's made from with an 8020 extrusion frame and metal brackets; with the PRUSA, you HAVE TO FUCK WITH IT FOR DAYS to get it that way because mission-critical parts are made of low-precision printed plastic. And because the plastic flows, it will drift out of alignment and reqire realignment. Yet somehow, the fanatics have made the NEED to fuck with it constantly into something somehow better than "It just plain works".

If your experience with 3DP is based on the PRUSA forums, no wonder you think all 3DPrinters require constant fettling.    If you buy PRUSA, they STILL DO. 

Short version: PRUSA=LINUX CReality=Windows FormLabs=Apple. Pick your priorities and dive in.

mnem
Pants are highly overrated.

Didn't you do a Prusa build ages ago? The market moved on, they moved on. If Prusa does one thing right it's testing and developing to end up with a solid machine. Call it the Soyuz treatment. Creality offers a lot of bang for buck but they also seem to iterate in production a bit more. Every nth unit seems to be a variation and they're not always rock solid. The overwhelming consensus seems to be that the Prusa is a better printer but the Ender has superior bang for buck and is quite decent overall. It may be fair to state the home gamer won't quickly run into differentiating issues so the difference at a significant cost is moot.

[GreyWoolfe]

It has begun. It’ll be cushions next. 

Followed by a fancy (re: expensive) bedspread, curtains, possibly a dressing table too.

Kiss your Eder 5 goodbye. 

Don't forget pots, pans, dishes, silverware and kitchen utensils.  Lots of kitchen utensils.  Then new bath towels, mats and hand towels.  Then she will need new clothes and shoes.  After that, she will make you buy new clothes and shoes.  You will never get your printer, Zucca, at least not this decade.

[BU508A]

Short version: PRUSA=LINUX CReality=Windows FormLabs=Apple. Pick your priorities and dive in.

This may come as a dumb question, but does the Ender 3 Pro work under Linux? Because I'm trying to avoid Windows (and Apple) as much as I can.

[worsthorse]

Stop posting awesome 3D printed stuff...   I want to kill myself.

If it's any consolation... I had to make this same decision a couple months ago myself: https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B0134FY4CW/

In retrospect... not a single fucking regret. Waking up actually feeling rested instead of like I'd spent the night fucking/fighting a kangaroo... No contest. Let the kangaroo win, if it'll bring you a new mattress.

Most people don't even realize how bad their old one had gotten until they get a new, decent one; and this pattern repeats over and over, decade after decade.

A good mattress wins hands-down over any toy; it really is one of the most neglected yet fundamentally critical aspects of anybody's quality of life. 

mnem
"If this is anything like it is with them 'roos, we gonn' need more room."

I will second this. The two biggest changes in my everyday quality of life: buying a new, high quality mattress and using a CPAP machine. My doc thinks I added a decade to my life span between them. 

Which, of course, I count as another ten years of time of TEA time.   

[worsthorse]

The PRUSAs are 90% elitist wankery, plain & simple. Yeah, sure they were the first to "market" back in the day. Get a decent 8040 extrusion based chassis with all metal frame parts and you're already ahead of the game; fuck PRUSA and their stupid shit frames made of printed shit. 

The Ender 3 is a fabulous starter OR 2nd machine; They are 90% preassembled so you know it's gonna work right out of the box, so you can get right into the "fine-tuning" aspect instead of "did I put that roller on the wrong side of the channel...?" etc first build headaches. Really, there is no way you can go wrong at the price of the thing unless you buy it from some markup wankmeister store.

The only qualifier I'd make to that is that if you can afford a little more, seek out and buy one of the other models with a dual-Z upgrade and ceramic heated bed (even if it has the Build-Tak surface on there and you have to peel it off) already included. Those would be my #1 & #2 features over the Ender 3/Ender 3 Pro.

Thanks for your loud and clear words.  I appreciate that.

I did a little search with google. just to verify:
You are talking about these things?

The ceramic bed:
https://www.creality3dofficial.com/products/creality-new-upgraded-heated-bed-build-plate-surface

And the dual-z-axis upgrade:
https://www.aliexpress.com/i/33008433245.html

Strange thing is: I didn't find it on the Creality website. Maybe I'm overlooking something? 

No, the glass build plate is a different thing. I'm talking about the heated bed itself, made of ceramic. These seem to be MUCH more stable in general than the aluminum ones. I don't know if CReality offers that anymore; it may only be aftermarket or on certain models. I think CReality only offers Dual-Z on one of the more expensive CR-10 models.

@bean - You know the CReality lineup better than I do; can you elucidate?

mnem
*fixing... things.*

@bean and @mnen... so if I were to upgrade my new ender 3, these would be the three things I should do first:  heated bed, glass build plate, dual z-axis upgrade?

[mnementh]

Yeah, as opposed to the CR-10 that just works out of the box. 

I've done the PRUSA thing. Most of their "support" is community-based; just like the Chinese stuff. Difference is PRUSA stubbornly clings to the fucking idiotic "a 3D printer is one of the few tools that can make itself" mantra. Bullshit. 

You want good prints, you need to start with a machine that is straight, rigid and square. You get all that as a property of the material it's made from with an 8020 extrusion frame and metal brackets; with the PRUSA, you HAVE TO FUCK WITH IT FOR DAYS to get it that way because mission-critical parts are made of low-precision printed plastic. And because the plastic flows, it will drift out of alignment and reqire realignment. Yet somehow, the fanatics have made the NEED to fuck with it constantly into something somehow better than "It just plain works".

If your experience with 3DP is based on the PRUSA forums, no wonder you think all 3DPrinters require constant fettling.    If you buy PRUSA, they STILL DO. 

Short version: PRUSA=LINUX CReality=Windows FormLabs=Apple. Pick your priorities and dive in.

mnem
Pants are highly overrated.

Didn't you do a Prusa build ages ago? The market moved on, they moved on. If Prusa does one thing right it's testing and developing to end up with a solid machine. Call it the Soyuz treatment. Creality offers a lot of bang for buck but they also seem to iterate in production a bit more. Every nth unit seems to be a variation and they're not always rock solid. The overwhelming consensus seems to be that the Prusa is a better printer but the Ender has superior bang for buck and is quite decent overall. It may be fair to state the home gamer won't quickly run into differentiating issues so the difference at a significant cost is moot.

Yeah, the market moved on; they left PRUSA behind because they wanted stuff that just plain works. The consensus in the PRUSA forums is that they're better... elsewhere, not so much. Until you get into the bespoke-built stuff PRUSA does for commercial and university clients, there are a dozen China-direct DESIGNERS AND MANUFACTURERS who simply are ahead of PRUSA's game. And THEY are the ones who are designing and manufacturing FOR THE AVERAGE USER; PRUSA is still designing for uni.

Just go out there and lurk in the CREALITY or GEEETECH or TEVO forums for a while. You'll see that all of them are PRODUCING gear that is generations ahead of what PRUSA is making for the home market.  PRUSA still makes core load-bearing components via 3DP, because reasons.  They would still be flogging the fucking RAMPS controller if it weren't for the Chinese manufacturers adapting the design properly for mass-production. 

mnem
Alternately, no.

[mnementh]

Totally agree 

Especially the "Pants are highly overrated." part, right...? 

Short version: PRUSA=LINUX CReality=Windows FormLabs=Apple. Pick your priorities and dive in.

This may come as a dumb question, but does the Ender 3 Pro work under Linux? Because I'm trying to avoid Windows (and Apple) as much as I can.

LOL... not too dumb.  You don't HAVE TO connect directly to the printer; it doesn't have drivers like your HP All-In-One, unless you're using one of the boutique printers where they own every step of the process like FormLabs and XYZprinting/DaVinci.

The process with a normal hobbyist 3DPrinter is: First, you create your 3D model using whatever software you like; this creates a model file in one of a dozen or so popular formats.

Then, you run that model file through another bit of software called a slicer which creates the universal GCODE file (this describes every movement of the printhead, printbed and extruder drive) that your printer will use to actually make the layers of print. This process can be optimized for your specific printer by the use of a third type of file known as a profile; this tweaks the generic settings in your slicer to be more specific to the qualities of your specific printer. Think of the slicer as an autorouter for a thread of melted plastic.

Third, you set up the printer based on model type and material; zero the bed, etc and start the file. Nowadays most of the printer setup is done in the slicer and added to the GCODE file; however like any computerized machine, you have choices in the type of firmware you run and certain global parameters you CAN set to your preference. Nowadays, most machines come with that already optimized in the recommended firmware or community-tweaked versions of the recommended firmware. Odds are you'll be running some version of the MARLIN firmware variant with any PRUSA-family cartesian FDM printer (All of the Ender, Tevo, Geetech, etc filament printers are this), though.

There are automation environments for all the major platforms which do require direct connection, but most folk start out creating the file on whatever personal confuser they like best, then SneakerNet it to the printer on a SD card.  Aside from that, the primary differences are fundamental type of printer; whether it be phototropic resin, or Cartesian vs Kossel/Delta FDM; this will largely dictate which slicer you use.

mnem
*101-ily*

[beanflying]

Re Dual Z all of the current CR-10 range now run them only the first one came with it as an add on. The Ender simply doesn't need it but it could be fitted but it would take changing the power supply position and other changes to make it fit.

Paying the Prusa TAX helps Joe and Team fly around the world promoting themselves to their disciples and wannabe converts and it does also pay for significant research and design ideas that then get open sourced (in the main) for others to use and copy. A lot of the firmware and driver board 'improvements' for example if you want them can be added to other printers using aftermarket boards if you think there is an advantage worth the $

Start with an Ender, change the board (I haven't and don't feel I need to), add a linear rail kit and still have a few hundred in change over a Prusa

[beanflying]

@bean and @mnen... so if I were to upgrade my new ender 3, these would be the three things I should do first:  heated bed, glass build plate, dual z-axis upgrade?

Glass build plate is almost a must as the Magnetic one is limiting on bed temp and it will fail as it is to soft. That said it is idiot proof and easy

Dual Z as above skip it.

The Heated bed on mine work so I see zero need to play with them.

The controller board is one area I would consider changing for some extra poke and features but for the reason of the current one working I haven't bothered.

The Extruder for the few $ is worth the Aluminium upgrade as one of mine did break the Tension arm after a lot of use.

[mnementh]

Thanks for your loud and clear words.  I appreciate that.

I did a little search with google. just to verify:
You are talking about these things?

The ceramic bed:
https://www.creality3dofficial.com/products/creality-new-upgraded-heated-bed-build-plate-surface

And the dual-z-axis upgrade:
https://www.aliexpress.com/i/33008433245.html

Strange thing is: I didn't find it on the Creality website. Maybe I'm overlooking something? 

No, the glass build plate is a different thing. I'm talking about the heated bed itself, made of ceramic. These seem to be MUCH more stable in general than the aluminum ones. I don't know if CReality offers that anymore; it may only be aftermarket or on certain models. I think CReality only offers Dual-Z on one of the more expensive CR-10 models.

@bean - You know the CReality lineup better than I do; can you elucidate?

mnem
*fixing... things.*

@bean and @mnen... so if I were to upgrade my new ender 3, these would be the three things I should do first:  heated bed, glass build plate, dual z-axis upgrade?

I thought the Ender 3 came with a heated bed...? *Gurrgle-Fu* Yeah; it does. I don't know that I'd spend the money on a replacement for a working heated bed; that money is better spent on another machine that comes with the features you've decided you want once you get your feet wet and KNOW what you want.  Give up on the idea of owning ONE printer; unless you decide you HATE 3DP and abandon it, you're going to have 2 or more before long. Period, end of discussion. 

I still like the mirror tile best for machines that are big enough; so much win for so little money. But yeah, a couple pieces of glass to print on are for sure a #1 priority. I don't recommend upgrading to a Dual-Z but rather seek it out as a feature on a new purchase. Same logic as the ceramic heated bed; it is a thing to look for if you're ready to spend a bit more on a machine that's higher on the food chain because it increases the precision and at the same time it reduces wear on the rollers, which helps keep your printer running true longer.

If you want to try printing on glass without spending a fortune, go to your local Dollar Store and look at cheap picture frames. You can usually find one with a glass close enough to your bed size to at least experiment with for a pittance. 

Add a can of extra-hold hairspray and some binder clips and you can be all in for a fiver, give or take. 

mnem
*building the perfect beast*

[mnementh]

Re Dual Z all of the current CR-10 range now run them only the first one came with it as an add on. The Ender simply doesn't need it but it could be fitted but it would take changing the power supply position and other changes to make it fit.

Paying the Prusa TAX helps Joe and Team fly around the world promoting themselves to their disciples and wannabe converts and it does also pay for significant research and design ideas that then get open sourced (in the main) for others to use and copy. A lot of the firmware and driver board 'improvements' for example if you want them can be added to other printers using aftermarket boards if you think there is an advantage worth the $

Start with an Ender, change the board (I haven't and don't feel I need to), add a linear rail kit and still have a few hundred in change over a Prusa

Yeah, but a lot of the 'improvements' PRUSA takes credit for are actually the product of some nameless bastard in a Chinese sweat-shop factory office somewhere... as are many of the firmware refinements that the manufacturers had to develop to suit their own version of the generic PRUSA template. That is one of the dirty little secrets of the PRUSA ecosystem as well, I'm afraid; they feel it is perfectly acceptable to promote themselves using other manufacturers' IP since they created the plain vanilla template.

I generally don't recommend buying ANY 3DP with the plan to upgrade any major component. Start out with the features you need; save up and spend the money up front on the model that has those features already. The bundle price is still way less than building a lesser machine and buying upgrades. Or just get the Ender 3/3Pro as a first machine and learn on it; it's a CHEAP EDUCATION. You will NOT regret having spent the money and having the Ender 3 as a second printer once you know enough to know what features you want in a unit that's higher on the food chain.

mnem
moo...?