Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[mnementh]

There may be personal bias/expectation evident. To some extent that is true, and certainly will be after a period with the "opposite" direction.

The question becomes acute when the switch is moved and the light's state doesn't change.

Analogy: driving on the left/right. I've seen people make "surprising" mistakes on empty roads. That doesn't matter, unless the road is narrow and you are surprised by a car coming in the other direction. Then it is questionable which instinct will dominate.

The light switch is a binary thing. Either the light is on or it isn't. If light is needed, I don't look at the switch, I merely change its state to the opposite of its current state. If the light doesn't come on, my reasoning ability informs me that there is a fault, generally with the light source.

I quite often switch between driving on the right here in Sweden and on the left in the UK. As long as the car's steering wheel is on the correct side, it really doesn't phase me. When I had my Swedish car in the UK for a couple of weeks a while back, I did have to mentally remind myself that I was in the UK a couple of times, but that was the full extent of the problem. I've never found myself making a dangerous change of course based on any instinctive reaction though, regardless of which country I'm in.

When you buy a light switch with ON Labeled, it is invariably labeled with ON in the UP position. If you install it upside-down, it says NO.

Seems pretty clear to me which is right...

Same is true of toggle switchplates. UP is always ON, and OFF, when labeled, is DOWN.

mnem
*unipolar*

[tggzzz]

I guess I'm going to have to improve my German skills as ebay.co.uk will be largely useless to me in just a few days.

My understanding is the problems may can be expected to arise at the end of the year, not month.

My problem is that as soon as the UK leaves the EU, anything posted to me here in Sweden will disappear into Postnord's ransom system. If the item's value is <= 1700 SEK, the handling charges are 75 SEK plus VAT at 25%. For anything > 1700 SEK, handling charges are 125 SEK + 25% VAT + import duty. The entire import process adds a delay of 3 - 4 weeks in delivery. There is also no lower limit, so if I buy (for example) two end caps for the knobs on my PL320 for £5, they would still be subject to 25% VAT and the 75 SEK handling charge. The expression "daylight robbery" comes to mind.

This will make small value items uneconomical to order from the UK, and I'm sure will seriously hurt many UK based eBay sellers. Who wants customs problems when the same items may be available in the EU?

I've just put that to my fragrant MP, Dr Liam Fox, Secretary of State for International Trade. He is responsible for helping to secure trade deals with other countries following Brexit.

I am holding my breath, but not because I am waiting for a useful response.

The entirely unsurprising response-but-not-answer:

Thank you for your email.  As we leave the EU, we are entering the implementation period which lasts until the end of December 2020.  There will be no change to rules and regulations during that time.  Both sides will seek to reach a free trade agreement that producers a zero tariff, fee and quota arrangement alongside customs and regulations which will minimize any future trading friction.
Yours sincerely
LIAM FOX
Parliamentary Office of the Rt Hon Dr Liam Fox MP

Did you cut and paste the reply? If so, it doesn't really reflect well on your MP, seeing as they can't even check their reply for correct grammar! "...agreement that producers a zero tariff..."   His use of the word 'customs' is also very lax language in what is very much a formal communication. It says a lot when politicians write like poorly educated teenagers but still insist on using "Rt Hon Dr" in front of their name in some vain attempt to sound like they have the slightest idea what they are doing.

I really wouldn't put it past the Swedish government to instruct the customs authorities to say "There is currently no agreement in place between the UK and the EU and as the UK is no longer an EU country, you will either pay the Swedish VAT and handling charges or we will destroy your goods / send them back to the UK."

When the Scopex which I won on eBay arrives in Sweden, the UK will have left the EU, so I guess I won't have to wait too long to see if my prediction turns out to be correct.

It was cut and pasted, and I'm unsurprised at the response.

But the problems you indicate won't arise until the end of the year, the end of the implementation period. I very much doubt there can be a free trade agreement in place by the end of the year.

[tggzzz]

I quite often switch between driving on the right here in Sweden and on the left in the UK. As long as the car's steering wheel is on the correct side, it really doesn't phase me. When I had my Swedish car in the UK for a couple of weeks a while back, I did have to mentally remind myself that I was in the UK a couple of times, but that was the full extent of the problem. I've never found myself making a dangerous change of course based on any instinctive reaction though, regardless of which country I'm in.

I've driven on the continent and in the US, on holiday and business, and have seen interesting effects that weren't limited to me:

• driving out of parking areas or petrol stations onto empty roads and ending up on the "less appropriate" side of the road
• interestingly, confusing left and right when telling a driver which way to go. "Right" mentally implied crossing oncoming traffic, so we had to flip to saying "turn your way" (to turn left in the US and continent) or "turn my way" to turn right. No, I can't explain that, but it was demanding and persistent!

[mnementh]

Well, hell... I decided to dig a little deeper on Google, and I DID find this bastard child made by MK controls. All the way at the bottom. Of page two.

mnem

[Specmaster]

I guess I'm going to have to improve my German skills as ebay.co.uk will be largely useless to me in just a few days.

My understanding is the problems may can be expected to arise at the end of the year, not month.

My problem is that as soon as the UK leaves the EU, anything posted to me here in Sweden will disappear into Postnord's ransom system. If the item's value is <= 1700 SEK, the handling charges are 75 SEK plus VAT at 25%. For anything > 1700 SEK, handling charges are 125 SEK + 25% VAT + import duty. The entire import process adds a delay of 3 - 4 weeks in delivery. There is also no lower limit, so if I buy (for example) two end caps for the knobs on my PL320 for £5, they would still be subject to 25% VAT and the 75 SEK handling charge. The expression "daylight robbery" comes to mind.

This will make small value items uneconomical to order from the UK, and I'm sure will seriously hurt many UK based eBay sellers. Who wants customs problems when the same items may be available in the EU?

I've just put that to my fragrant MP, Dr Liam Fox, Secretary of State for International Trade. He is responsible for helping to secure trade deals with other countries following Brexit.

I am holding my breath, but not because I am waiting for a useful response.

The entirely unsurprising response-but-not-answer:

Thank you for your email.  As we leave the EU, we are entering the implementation period which lasts until the end of December 2020.  There will be no change to rules and regulations during that time.  Both sides will seek to reach a free trade agreement that producers a zero tariff, fee and quota arrangement alongside customs and regulations which will minimize any future trading friction.
Yours sincerely
LIAM FOX
Parliamentary Office of the Rt Hon Dr Liam Fox MP

Did you cut and paste the reply? If so, it doesn't really reflect well on your MP, seeing as they can't even check their reply for correct grammar! "...agreement that producers a zero tariff..."   His use of the word 'customs' is also very lax language in what is very much a formal communication. It says a lot when politicians write like poorly educated teenagers but still insist on using "Rt Hon Dr" in front of their name in some vain attempt to sound like they have the slightest idea what they are doing.

I really wouldn't put it past the Swedish government to instruct the customs authorities to say "There is currently no agreement in place between the UK and the EU and as the UK is no longer an EU country, you will either pay the Swedish VAT and handling charges or we will destroy your goods / send them back to the UK."

When the Scopex which I won on eBay arrives in Sweden, the UK will have left the EU, so I guess I won't have to wait too long to see if my prediction turns out to be correct.

As far as the tax is concerned, nothing should change until the end of December this year. Technically the only thing to have changed is that the UK does not have any voice in the EU parliament now, everything else remains the same in the transitional period.

[tggzzz]

Well, hell... I decided to dig a little deeper on Google, and I DID find this bastard child made by MK controls. All the way at the bottom. Of page two.

I'm amazed you found a switch with a label; I've never seen one.

[Specmaster]

There may be personal bias/expectation evident. To some extent that is true, and certainly will be after a period with the "opposite" direction.

The question becomes acute when the switch is moved and the light's state doesn't change.

Analogy: driving on the left/right. I've seen people make "surprising" mistakes on empty roads. That doesn't matter, unless the road is narrow and you are surprised by a car coming in the other direction. Then it is questionable which instinct will dominate.

The light switch is a binary thing. Either the light is on or it isn't. If light is needed, I don't look at the switch, I merely change its state to the opposite of its current state. If the light doesn't come on, my reasoning ability informs me that there is a fault, generally with the light source.

I quite often switch between driving on the right here in Sweden and on the left in the UK. As long as the car's steering wheel is on the correct side, it really doesn't phase me. When I had my Swedish car in the UK for a couple of weeks a while back, I did have to mentally remind myself that I was in the UK a couple of times, but that was the full extent of the problem. I've never found myself making a dangerous change of course based on any instinctive reaction though, regardless of which country I'm in.

(Attachment Link)

When you buy a light switch with ON Labeled, it is invariably labeled with ON in the UP position. If you install it upside-down, it says NO.

Seems pretty clear to me which is right...

Same is true of toggle switchplates. UP is always ON, and OFF, when labeled, is DOWN.

mnem
*unipolar*

Except when you're in the UK or other countries that adopt the British Standards, then ON is very much always down as per sample attached.

[Specmaster]

I quite often switch between driving on the right here in Sweden and on the left in the UK. As long as the car's steering wheel is on the correct side, it really doesn't phase me. When I had my Swedish car in the UK for a couple of weeks a while back, I did have to mentally remind myself that I was in the UK a couple of times, but that was the full extent of the problem. I've never found myself making a dangerous change of course based on any instinctive reaction though, regardless of which country I'm in.

I've driven on the continent and in the US, on holiday and business, and have seen interesting effects that weren't limited to me:

• driving out of parking areas or petrol stations onto empty roads and ending up on the "less appropriate" side of the road
• interestingly, confusing left and right when telling a driver which way to go. "Right" mentally implied crossing oncoming traffic, so we had to flip to saying "turn your way" (to turn left in the US and continent) or "turn my way" to turn right. No, I can't explain that, but it was demanding and persistent!

Well, hell... I decided to dig a little deeper on Google, and I DID find this bastard child made by MK controls. All the way at the bottom. Of page two.

mnem

How far back does that welsh blood run in your family  pre-electrification I reckon  , last time I was in Wales, they have the same switches as England, down = on.

[beanflying]

If you want, send me your references and I will check them against my calibrated DMM7510 and 10v LTZ1000 standard then send them back.  Send a PM if your interested.

Thanks for the offer. I just might do that. Then I will know...who is telling the truth. The Fluke or the Siglent! 

Is it just me or should we be concerned that a more or less unencumbered male of the species has a scented candle melting device 

Personally, I doubt either of them will agree with Kj7e's meters, each one has to have its own individual tolerances from the components it is built up from and it is highly unlikely that the parts used in each came from the same production batch etc.   

What would come back however would be a vref or better the two with some usage, aging and hopefully less ongoing drift with a known uncertainty by a much better meter. These then applied because of the additional resolution of the 7510 against even @meds Siglent should give a suitable reference point on the last digit bieng correct or not.

While for repairing of gear the extra resolution may not be needed if you want to make a widget you know is right to the last mV you really need stable gear to 0.01mV resolution and accuracy to test your widget against.

[mnementh]

...Technically the only thing to have changed is that the UK does not have any voice in the EU parliament now, everything else remains the same in the transitional period.

Ahhh... so that would explain this recent submission; a motion to declare that, and I quote: "The House of Commons is a Pack of Self-Promoting Twats Who Like Nothing More Than to Sit in Chamber and Exchange Farts"...

mnem
*NOT Her Majesty's Dragon...* yet.

[bd139]

Nailed it 

[Specmaster]

If you want, send me your references and I will check them against my calibrated DMM7510 and 10v LTZ1000 standard then send them back.  Send a PM if your interested.

Thanks for the offer. I just might do that. Then I will know...who is telling the truth. The Fluke or the Siglent! 

Is it just me or should we be concerned that a more or less unencumbered male of the species has a scented candle melting device 

Personally, I doubt either of them will agree with Kj7e's meters, each one has to have its own individual tolerances from the components it is built up from and it is highly unlikely that the parts used in each came from the same production batch etc.   

What would come back however would be a vref or better the two with some usage, aging and hopefully less ongoing drift with a known uncertainty by a much better meter. These then applied because of the additional resolution of the 7510 against even @meds Siglent should give a suitable reference point on the last digit bieng correct or not.

While for repairing of gear the extra resolution may not be needed if you want to make a widget you know is right to the last mV you really need stable gear to 0.01mV resolution and accuracy to test your widget against.

I really doubt that you can have much faith in using another meter, even if it has those extra digits, the readings acquired against meds references, would still be different from the references that med can get and repeat using his equipment. Lets say they are checked using the 7150 and the readings passed over to med, then he gets his hands on a calibrated 7150 for his own use, he is still likely to get completely different readings on the 7150, unless that meter was set up using the very same references as that of Kj7e, as the factory is likely to have more than just the one calibrator. Then if the meter has been sent to off to another calibration lab for re-certification, it will be checked and adjusted against yet another reference source. 

[mnementh]

   Well, hell... I decided to dig a little deeper on Google, and I DID find this bastard child made by MK controls. All the way at the bottom. Of page two.

mnem

How far back does that welsh blood run in your family  pre-electrification I reckon  , last time I was in Wales, they have the same switches as England, down = on.

There's a reason I'm FROM Wales and not IN Wales.   

mnem
Actually, there's about a million of them... or rather, 3.19 million... 

[Specmaster]

Then in that case you should be all too familiar with switches like that bastard child from MK, all switches used in the UK should conform to the BSI standard and that is down for ON 

[bd139]

I put all mine in upside down then 

[Specmaster]

I put all mine in upside down then 

You only did that to stop the electrons from falling out 

Edit, in that case, did you also remember to seal up the cable entry to all of your plug tops then to prevent any water spillage from entering and causing short circuits? 

[Cerebus]

Well, hell... I decided to dig a little deeper on Google, and I DID find this bastard child made by MK controls. All the way at the bottom. Of page two.

I'm amazed you found a switch with a label; I've never seen one.

Rather unobservant of you then, I don't think I've a cooker switch-plate/socket without a label.

[bd139]

I put all mine in upside down then 

You only did that to stop the electrons from falling out 

Edit, in that case, did you also remember to seal up the cable entry to all of your plug tops then to prevent any water spillage from entering and causing short circuits? 

Hahaha 

[Mr. Scram]

I think I preferred the political discussion.

[tggzzz]

Well, hell... I decided to dig a little deeper on Google, and I DID find this bastard child made by MK controls. All the way at the bottom. Of page two.

I'm amazed you found a switch with a label; I've never seen one.

Rather unobservant of you then, I don't think I've a cooker switch-plate/socket without a label.

I'm not aware of having seen a cooker switch-plate/socket!

More relevantly, they have little in common with light switches.

[Cerebus]

I'm not aware of having seen a cooker switch-plate/socket!

Genuinely surprising, they're in most UK kitchens. Certainly all kitchens that have or have had electric cookers installed sometime in the last 50 years.

Of course if one is of the class where the cooker is only used by the servants or ones friend's servants, then one would have a legitimate defence to a charge of gross inattention. 'O ever knew that our Tim were that posh! 

[Specmaster]

Well, hell... I decided to dig a little deeper on Google, and I DID find this bastard child made by MK controls. All the way at the bottom. Of page two.

I'm amazed you found a switch with a label; I've never seen one.

Rather unobservant of you then, I don't think I've a cooker switch-plate/socket without a label.

I'm not aware of having seen a cooker switch-plate/socket!

More relevantly, they have little in common with light switches.

On the contrary, the light switches as do all UK switches, all follow the same convention, down for ON, up for OFF except for 2 way and intermediate switches whose position will change according to the other switches in the circuit.

[beanflying]

snip....

What would come back however would be a vref or better the two with some usage, aging and hopefully less ongoing drift with a known uncertainty by a much better meter. These then applied because of the additional resolution of the 7510 against even @meds Siglent should give a suitable reference point on the last digit bieng correct or not.

While for repairing of gear the extra resolution may not be needed if you want to make a widget you know is right to the last mV you really need stable gear to 0.01mV resolution and accuracy to test your widget against.

I really doubt that you can have much faith in using another meter, even if it has those extra digits, the readings acquired against meds references, would still be different from the references that med can get and repeat using his equipment. Lets say they are checked using the 7150 and the readings passed over to med, then he gets his hands on a calibrated 7150 for his own use, he is still likely to get completely different readings on the 7150, unless that meter was set up using the very same references as that of Kj7e, as the factory is likely to have more than just the one calibrator. Then if the meter has been sent to off to another calibration lab for re-certification, it will be checked and adjusted against yet another reference source. 

Faith implies belief is some mythical sky ghost so clearly the wrong and inappropriate choice of words. While I am aware of your view on precision bench requirements or lack there of for some things and people it matters.

Not sure for example where @med got to with his higher voltage standards for his own meter calibration but if you are multiplying errors from unknowns then it matters even more. Using an unknown source for me was always the biggest issue with these.

Meters when calibrated are tested against one calibrator which is in turn calibrated against known standards if not sent to a lab with a JJ array among others. Keysight in Oz send their calibrators out to be done. It will make ZERO practical difference if a meter is tested a different bit of gear or not as they are another 1 or 2 levels up again. PPB against PPM level gear. The important thing here is ALL calibrators are traceable and have KNOWN levels of certainty.

The DMM7510 because of it's traceable calibration has CERTAINTY of measurement which has an actual number to work from. At 10V DC it is specced to 9-14PPM+1.2 for range (90 or 1 year spec) so assuming a source in that range it will be accurate and have good certainty  within a range of 9.999985 and 10.000015.

The best meter (resolution wise at least) @med has is the Siglent and at the same 10V it has a spec of 0.017% which puts it at 9.9983 to 10.0017 so any returned reference with a known figure from the 7510 will be way better than @meds meter can resolve and therefore an appropriate standard to reference against. This obviously implies same temp and the reference not drifting post testing.

[nixiefreqq]

holy crap.

just went into the latrine and took this picture.

have been looking at light switches for 64 years and never noticed that they are labeled.

how many other obvious things have i missed in my life?

wait!  girls have boobs!  that's how you spot them!   damn!


edit  also noticed that the cover screws are aligned perfectly.  my brother "rainman" would be proud.

[Neomys Sapiens]

Most of the repairs / restorations I do are on retro equipment and I prefer not to contaminate them with this new fangle lead-free rubbish. However, my preferred supplier has just discontinued all lead based solders, despite the fact that they are (as far as I know) still being manufactured. Is this going to happen with other distributors, or are they just being over enthusiastic on the green front? Is it time to stock up?

I assume others here also only use lead solder on older equipment, or are there people here that use lead free on a PCB that was manugactured with the good old stuff?

McBryce.

Balver Zinn Josef Jost GmbH & Co. KG (who incidentally also makes IMHO the best lead-free solder, which is even ok for hookup wire AND gives shiny joints) still manufactures and supplies both Sn63Pb37and Sn62Pb36Ag2.
Their flux core solder wires are grouped by the type of flux. Go for Brilliant 2012, which is ... simply brilliant.
I bought a roll of 0.5mm SnPbAg for my workplace last year and my repair technician is already a convert for their Pb-free.