Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[Specmaster]

I second that, it was quite a jousting match between the pair of at time, and I loved the short comic strip you did   

[bd139]

Random question ... anyone got any experience with Panavise?

I have just cleaned up my CC from amateur radio crap sales and have itchy spendy fingers and it's likely to fix a number of problems I've got with the number of hands I have when working on SMD boards and deadbug stuff. But there are two options ...

... standard good for everything...



... and board holder...



Any thoughts welcome

Edit: or option 3 - this will make my life harder

[Specmaster]

TBH, I'd think that neither of these are what you're looking for, unless your looking at working on existing populated boards for fault finding. If you're working on new boards which is what you mainly seem to do, I'd have thought that your best bet was to lay the board flat on a silicon desk mat so that the parts remain on the board while you solder them in place, otherwise won't you risk shooting them all over the place and then there'll be hoovered (vacuumed) up when you do the housework?

[tggzzz]

You can usually find them on ebay for around £4 a go which is much more reasonable but still to expensive and you don't know where they have been.

Have a look for Vishay 021 ASM on CPC. Affordable axials. £0.85 a go for a 220uF 40V one in same dimensions which may do the job ok. If I need lower ESR I stick a 100n to 1uF X7R ceramic across them under the board. If the feedback loop of whatever it is across is well compensated it works fine.

https://cpc.farnell.com/vishay/mal202137221e3/capacitor-220uf-40v/dp/CA05088

Yes indeed. But then I'm not averse to using a radial caps plus insulating sleeving where necessary. I'm not going to shake rattle and roll my equipment, or repair it with a well-aimed boot.

The things I use them for are very uncritical w.r.t. feedback loop stabilitity. Just as well, given the original caps were usually +100-20% I sometimes suspect (cf believe) that modern electrolytic caps are smaller simply because they are more tightly specified to, say, +-10% - which would instantly knock ~40% off the size!

[Specmaster]

Drat, just been outbid again on a lovely TTi power supply by just £2, sold as possible not working but it still went for £76.50 

Out of curiosity, I noticed that the winner was shown as p***t (2248) so I clicked on the winners tab and it came up as S***G (2248) so  is going on here, my ebay is shown correctly so I clicked on the other bidders and their info was also changed, am I missing something or what, I cant say as I've ever really noticed that before 

[mnementh]

Random question ... anyone got any experience with Panavise?   I have just cleaned up my CC from amateur radio crap sales and have itchy spendy fingers and it's likely to fix a number of problems I've got with the number of hands I have when working on SMD boards and deadbug stuff. But there are two options ...

... standard good for everything...      ... and board holder...      Any thoughts welcome    Edit: or option 3 - this will make my life harder

I have have had both (and the  mini shop vise as well); bought all new from catalog 30 years ago. I've never once regretted the money spent. (The PCB holder assembly and its swivel base are lost somewhere in a move.)

The universal clamp is universal, but you have to screw it all the way in & out, which is time-consuming. The PCB clamp is made so you can "quick-change" boards; it is primarily for production work, but it makes life so much easier having it right there under your magnifier and worklight when troubleshooting a PCB. I consider it essential equipment for anyone who spends ANY appreciable amount of time working on PCBs for any reason.

You only NEED one swivel assembly; they're designed to quick-change just by loosening the ball clamp that the big post goes into. But one for each is so much more handy, especially if soldering wires to a PCB. Get the big cast soldering base with the little catchall wells unless you plan to have a second swivel base screwed to your workbench somewhere; the swivel base WILL do for many tasks just by itself, but the weight and broader base makes all the difference in the world when soldering. It makes the work stable, not "wiggly", if you know what I mean. Even on large boards.

If you ONLY get one, get the universal with rubber grips. It works well on anything up to medium-size PCBs, and works well for soldering wires without damaging the insulation. Also quite effective for dead-bug down to approx DIP-6 packages. For small stuff you have to reverse one or both of the jaws, which is time consuming but not difficult. Or get the regular mini shop vise as well. 2nd more expensive choice: one base, both clamp assemblies. 1st, most expensive choice, one of each with base loaded to the gunwales as in your pics.

Shopping notes: Shop eBay CAREFULLY. You CAN get a good deal on there, but for some reason many sellers think they have Starrett or Brown & Sharpe machinist-grade equipment when they get their hands on these.  They have ZERO collectible value; they're just used tools, and not terribly expensive ones at that. ALWAYS compare against new from Panavise's site before clicking [BUY]. Also check Amazon; they often come up on special around the "Gifts for Dad" holidays, just like Dremel does.

mnem
*solder-ily*

[bd139]

Drat, just been outbid again on a lovely TTi power supply by just £2, sold as possible not working but it still went for £76.50 

Out of curiosity, I noticed that the winner was shown as p***t (2248) so I clicked on the winners tab and it came up as S***G (2248) so  is going on here, my ebay is shown correctly so I clicked on the other bidders and their info was also changed, am I missing something or what, I cant say as I've ever really noticed that before 

Gah that was a nice one that as well. Had it on my watch list too just to see what it went for. It's a £350 current model power supply and TTi sell the parts for it still so it's probalbly going to get a good amount as low risk.

You can usually find them on ebay for around £4 a go which is much more reasonable but still to expensive and you don't know where they have been.

Have a look for Vishay 021 ASM on CPC. Affordable axials. £0.85 a go for a 220uF 40V one in same dimensions which may do the job ok. If I need lower ESR I stick a 100n to 1uF X7R ceramic across them under the board. If the feedback loop of whatever it is across is well compensated it works fine.

https://cpc.farnell.com/vishay/mal202137221e3/capacitor-220uf-40v/dp/CA05088

Yes indeed. But then I'm not averse to using a radial caps plus insulating sleeving where necessary. I'm not going to shake rattle and roll my equipment, or repair it with a well-aimed boot.

The things I use them for are very uncritical w.r.t. feedback loop stabilitity. Just as well, given the original caps were usually +100-20% I sometimes suspect (cf believe) that modern electrolytic caps are smaller simply because they are more tightly specified to, say, +-10% - which would instantly knock ~40% off the size!

Yeah I do that with radials sometimes but it just feels dirty in some locations. Whenever I do anything Heathkit-y I tend to drill a couple of new holes in the board. That works as the things are almost always designed with a ground plane under the negative end of the caps. That makes me feel better than

TBH, I'd think that neither of these are what you're looking for, unless your looking at working on existing populated boards for fault finding. If you're working on new boards which is what you mainly seem to do, I'd have thought that your best bet was to lay the board flat on a silicon desk mat so that the parts remain on the board while you solder them in place, otherwise won't you risk shooting them all over the place and then there'll be hoovered (vacuumed) up when you do the housework?

Problem I've got is a lot of the boards I'm working on I build flat on a bit of carboard and they are perpetually buggering off while I'm trying to solder things to them. I usually wedge some blu tack under them but it's not too good. Also a complex board gives you a neck ache when populating it if the working position isn't slightly raised. I think most of my parts end up on the floor anyway. Just as well SMD parts are cheap. I don't even go looking for them!

What I tend to do however is a lot of dead bug prototyping at the moment and it's really not good when the board moves around all over the place as the test leads pop off or drag the board around when you do a minor change.

This popped into mind as a typical use case of mine (Jim Williams battery monitor prototype):

Random question ... anyone got any experience with Panavise?   I have just cleaned up my CC from amateur radio crap sales and have itchy spendy fingers and it's likely to fix a number of problems I've got with the number of hands I have when working on SMD boards and deadbug stuff. But there are two options ...

... standard good for everything...      ... and board holder...      Any thoughts welcome    Edit: or option 3 - this will make my life harder

I have have had both (and the  mini shop vise as well); bought all new from catalog 30 years ago. I've never once regretted the money spent. (The PCB holder assembly and its swivel base are lost somewhere in a move.)

The universal clamp is universal, but you have to screw it all the way in & out, which is time-consuming. The PCB clamp is made so you can "quick-change" boards; it is primarily for production work, but it makes life so much easier having it right there under your magnifier and worklight when troubleshooting a PCB. I consider it essential equipment for anyone who spends ANY appreciable amount of time working on PCBs for any reason.

You only NEED one swivel assembly; they're designed to quick-change just by loosening the ball clamp that the big post goes into. But one for each is so much more handy, especially if soldering wires to a PCB. Get the big cast soldering base with the little catchall wells unless you plan to have a second swivel base screwed to your workbench somewhere; the swivel base WILL do for many tasks just by itself, but the weight and broader base makes all the difference in the world when soldering. It makes the work stable, not "wiggly", if you know what I mean. Even on large boards.

If you ONLY get one, get the universal with rubber grips. It works well on anything up to medium-size PCBs, and works well for soldering wires without damaging the insulation. Also quite effective for dead-bug down to approx DIP-6 packages. For small stuff you have to reverse one or both of the jaws, which is time consuming but not difficult. Or get the regular mini shop vise as well. 2nd more expensive choice: one base, both clamp assemblies. 1st, most expensive choice, one of each with base loaded to the gunwales as in your pics.

mnem
*solder-ily*

Thanks for the write up - much appreciated. I will probably go for the rubber grip one with the full cast base as I need it to stay put. If I need more I'll get the PCB holder head. Makes sense. One base is cool - that's all I need  Thank you again

[beanflying]

Nearly into the Top 10 Topics (by Views) but languishing near the bottom of most thanked threads. 

Who hasn't thanked the OP bitseeker ?     Get onto it ! 

Can't do that on my phone via Tapatalk [emoji48]

Yeah, you're not in the thanker list..............fit that will ya !   

Haha, fixed that and checked that one off my TDL, all done now 

Like it Again seems you may have double hit the button 

[mnementh]

Thanks for the write up - much appreciated. I will probably go for the rubber grip one with the full cast base as I need it to stay put. If I need more I'll get the PCB holder head. Makes sense. One base is cool - that's all I need  Thank you again

Glad to help.     I'll repeat and expand on my "Shopping notes" here in case you missed them:

Shopping notes: Shop eBay CAREFULLY. You CAN get a good deal on there, but for some reason many sellers think they have Starrett or Brown & Sharpe machinist-grade equipment when they get their hands on these.  They have ZERO collectible value; they're just used tools, and not terribly expensive ones at that. ALWAYS compare against new from Panavise's site before clicking [BUY]. Also check their store on Amazon; free shipping via Prime often makes it the real best deal, and they often come up on special around the "Gifts for Dad" holidays, just like Dremel does.

Watch out when shopping wherever you shop; the cheaper model 396 LOOKS a lot like the 350, but it isn't near as rigid and it doesn't have the quick-spindle, just a plastic knob. Opening/closing it full extension can be... frustrating.

   Also note the Quadhands Panavise accessory for $45... it might be just the ticket for your prototyping work.

   Note that the 303 "mini shop vise" and the    312 weighted base are pretty cheap; $27 & $24 via Prime. If you can find a good deal on what you want used without, then it's not too painful to add them on later.

The 324 electronic work center (has the solder spool holder and iron holder integrated) is on "sale" for $87, same price as the 350.    Add the 376 head (same as the 350) for only $54, again via Prime, and you get the soldering goodies along with both heads for $142.

If I were shopping them right now that would be my choice, as I already have a good base to use as a second. From there you can go look for a good deal on used; but be mindful that some of the used gear you find might not have the quick-release that is integrated into the current model 324 Electronic Work Center.

Cheers,

mnem
*tool-dwagon*

[bd139]

Unfortunately there are no official local distributors here and they don't have an office so the only way we can get it here is find the lowest retail price. The panavise 350 comes up at equivalent $130.65 cheapest here.  Soldering doohickey, the extra flappy springy rolly bits I don't need, comes up at around $125 so only fractionally cheaper. The PCB holder head is pretty cheap here however which works out better if I wanted both buying the 350 and then the PCB head.

Shit be expensive in the UK! 

[mnementh]

Drat, just been outbid again on a lovely TTi power supply by just £2, sold as possible not working but it still went for £76.50 

Out of curiosity, I noticed that the winner was shown as p***t (2248) so I clicked on the winners tab and it came up as S***G (2248) so  is going on here, my ebay is shown correctly so I clicked on the other bidders and their info was also changed, am I missing something or what, I cant say as I've ever really noticed that before 

Yes, other bidders names are randomized now in your view by fleaBay's system; this is to combat phishing fraud by d-bags offering bunk "Second-chance" offers.  Has been this way a year or two now... 

mnem
 

[Specmaster]

TBH, I'd think that neither of these are what you're looking for, unless your looking at working on existing populated boards for fault finding. If you're working on new boards which is what you mainly seem to do, I'd have thought that your best bet was to lay the board flat on a silicon desk mat so that the parts remain on the board while you solder them in place, otherwise won't you risk shooting them all over the place and then there'll be hoovered (vacuumed) up when you do the housework?

Problem I've got is a lot of the boards I'm working on I build flat on a bit of carboard and they are perpetually buggering off while I'm trying to solder things to them. I usually wedge some blu tack under them but it's not too good. Also a complex board gives you a neck ache when populating it if the working position isn't slightly raised. I think most of my parts end up on the floor anyway. Just as well SMD parts are cheap. I don't even go looking for them!

What I tend to do however is a lot of dead bug prototyping at the moment and it's really not good when the board moves around all over the place as the test leads pop off or drag the board around when you do a minor change.

Yep, thats why I thought that a mat like this might be a better solution as the boards don't tend to move when placed on it, you solder with impunity on it, no worries about ruining the dining table (maybe a bit late here  ) and they have many other uses as well. Should fit right in with your limited bench space, can be washed if required and rolled up when not in use.

Yeh, that was a nice power supply and as you rightly said it was a current model as well, I put a maximum bid in of £74.50 on and it went for £76.50 in the end. I did think that it was worth a going a bit more but I hesitated as I have two 30V units at the moment so if I needed 60V could be used in series @ 5A. The advantage with the TTi was 4 digit displays and it had the ability to lock the voltage set, and of course the seller was not 100% sure if it worked correctly, so sowed a little doubt in my mind.

[bd139]

I've actually got one of those I do phone / tablet repairs on occasionally. Unfortunately after about 6 months it developed a tight spot in the middle which means it won't lay flat now 

[Mr. Scram]

Be careful with those silicone mats. They can be a ESD nightmare. I personally really like those cheap PCB holders. They stabilize the board quite well and allow for easy access of both sides.

[Specmaster]

Drat, just been outbid again on a lovely TTi power supply by just £2, sold as possible not working but it still went for £76.50 

Out of curiosity, I noticed that the winner was shown as p***t (2248) so I clicked on the winners tab and it came up as S***G (2248) so  is going on here, my ebay is shown correctly so I clicked on the other bidders and their info was also changed, am I missing something or what, I cant say as I've ever really noticed that before 

Yes, other bidders names are randomized now in your view by fleaBay's system; this is to combat phishing fraud by d-bags offering bunk "Second-chance" offers.  Has been this way a year or two now... 

mnem
 

I suppose its a good idea but I'd not noticed it before, just assumed that it was the first and last letter of the persons username and asterisks in between to disguise the buyers ID, never realised that the system did it again when clicking on it, especially when it correctly displayed my username.

[Specmaster]

Be careful with those silicone mats. They can be a ESD nightmare. I personally really like those cheap PCB holders. They stabilize the board quite well and allow for easy access of both sides.

Yes, I got one of these myself, very pleased with it, but wasn't going to recommend it for SMD work as the board can be rotated fairly easily and thought a perfectly flat option would be best. I use the holder for TH stuff as thats what I do most of, not particularly happy doing SMD although I have repaired a few items and equally totally fucked some others that I never had the schematic for (weren't available anywhere) and accidently managed to dislodge adjacent parts with my heat gun and lost them 

[bd139]

I had one of those and it's useless for prototype work. Board has too much torque on the holder.

I might go for the basic panavise so far.

[Mr. Scram]

I had one of those and it's useless for prototype work. Board has too much torque on the holder.

I might go for the basic panavise so far.

Torque on the holder?

[bd139]

Yeah. I put a not so large board in one and it popped out of the clips on the side. Also the boards tend to slide out when you're turning them.

Annoyingly I just shelved the purchase for a week as I just walked out to go and grab some pizzas and found out I've got a flat tyre ffs 

[mnementh]

A silicone mat is a must-have to protect the screen when working on tablets and phones; however IME, not best for any kind of assembly work. Being able to set up at any angle is a must-have for that, which is where Panavise is still pretty much the standard of the industry. Not too expensive either, actually, at least here in the US.

Unfortunately there are no official local distributors here and they don't have an office so the only way we can get it here is find the lowest retail price. The panavise 350 comes up at equivalent $130.65 cheapest here.  Soldering doohickey, the extra flappy springy rolly bits I don't need, comes up at around $125 so only fractionally cheaper. The PCB holder head is pretty cheap here however which works out better if I wanted both buying the 350 and then the PCB head.

Shit be expensive in the UK! 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Panavise-324-Electronic-Work-Centre/dp/B000SSPNBU  £112.50 = US$149

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Panavise-Products-350-PanaVise-Multi-Purpose/dp/B06VX59J21 (Out of Stock) £84.27 + £10.37 S/H from US  =US$125

Yeah, that does kinda suck... especially for a class of product where there is no locally produced equivalent, so why the effing crazy-high VAT... 

   Be careful with those silicone mats. They can be a ESD nightmare. I personally really like those cheap PCB holders. They stabilize the board quite well and allow for easy access of both sides.

I had one of those and it's useless for prototype work. Board has too much torque on the holder. I might go for the basic panavise so far.

Yup... I got one of those as a present; certainly worth every penny as a diag aid but NOT rigid enough for proto work, especially if you need to cut/drill/route wires. As you say, the whole thing just turns too easily in the pivots, and being made of plastic, you can only tighten things up so much. 

Another case of "The right tool for the job".

mnem
*back out into garage-hell*

[tggzzz]

Annoyingly I just shelved the purchase for a week as I just walked out to go and grab some pizzas and found out I've got a flat tyre ffs 

Stop whining. Six months ago I went out and found the coilspring had snapped. Lovely clunking noise as I drove it to the garage.

Three weeks later the other one snapped!

Anyway, off to buy a freezer, assuming there are any left in the shops.

[0culus]

Be careful with those silicone mats. They can be a ESD nightmare. I personally really like those cheap PCB holders. They stabilize the board quite well and allow for easy access of both sides.

That would be amazing for through hole work. On the wishlist! 

[bd139]

Annoyingly I just shelved the purchase for a week as I just walked out to go and grab some pizzas and found out I've got a flat tyre ffs 

Stop whining. Six months ago I went out and found the coilspring had snapped. Lovely clunking noise as I drove it to the garage.

Three weeks later the other one snapped!

Anyway, off to buy a freezer, assuming there are any left in the shops.

Joy. Not what you need. I am mostly annoyed because if I order it and I’m not in which is most of this week I need to get to bloody Weybridge to pick it up.

On food, stacked still in the shops. Bercow, notorious for a bollocks to brexit sticker on his car, threw a grenade in the works today. Fingers crossed that will push it back to where I can eat my tinned food leisurely rather than out of necessity.

[Martin.M]

my hard working oldie laboratory is proudly presenting

THE PLOTTER MOVIE 

Please do not watch it by handy when you have to pay for the download data, it requires 1GB. (we love full HD + quality)

http://www.wellenkino.de/video/54601A_7475A.mp4

Thanks, Martin. It's been a long time since I've run a plotter. I have an HP plotter that's very similar to yours, but no knob on the front. Apparently, you can adapt a vinyl cutter knife holder for use as a ballpoint pen holder.

That knob at left side is a mod from the pre owner, for adjust the pressure of the pen (or cutter).
7475A have no knob there. This is one.

Martin

[mnementh]

   Be careful with those silicone mats. They can be a ESD nightmare. I personally really like those cheap PCB holders. They stabilize the board quite well and allow for easy access of both sides.

   That would be amazing for through hole work. On the wishlist! 

Note the caveats we've outlined:

Certainly worth every penny as a diag aid but NOT rigid enough for proto work, especially if you need to cut/drill/route wires.

As bd says, the whole thing just turns too easily in the pivots, and being made of plastic, you can only tighten things up so much.  Another case of "The right tool for the job".

That said... they're dirt cheap and Prime eligible:

https://smile.amazon.com/Aven-17010-Adjustable-Circuit-Holder/dp/B00Q2TTQEE

Also, I see the folks at QuadHands have made a similar item that looks much more HD, though at a pretty HD price as well:

https://smile.amazon.com/QuadHands-Flip-Circuit-Board-Holder/dp/B073G95GRF

mnem
*back out into garage-hell*