Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[bd139]

How the hell do you fake a Keithley?

[Mr. Scram]

How the hell do you fake a Keithley?

Have an oriental manufacturer build the unit, slap a Keithley front panel on it and sell it for significantly more than the oriental unit costs on its own. You're paying for a very expensive name badge.

[Specmaster]

How the hell do you fake a Keithley?

Have an oriental manufacturer build the unit, slap a Keithley front panel on it and sell it for significantly more than the oriental unit costs on its own. You're paying for a very expensive name badge.

How the hell could you detect it without opening it up?

From mobile device so predictive text might have struck again [emoji83]

[glarsson]

How the hell could you detect it without opening it up?

It says so on the front panel.

[Mr. Scram]

How the hell could you detect it without opening it up?

From mobile device so predictive text might have struck again [emoji83]

The oriental manufacturer selling the exact same unit with a different name on it should be a clue.

[bd139]

I am seriously considering ripping off some Chinese crap, doing a good job of it and selling it for more 

[Specmaster]

How the hell could you detect it without opening it up?

From mobile device so predictive text might have struck again [emoji83]

The oriental manufacturer selling the exact same unit with a different name on it should be a clue.

In that case, its pretty obvious its a fake but if it said Keithley I could understand you being taken in by it but with a different name on it 

[Mr. Scram]

In that case, its pretty obvious its a fake but if it said Keithley I could understand you being taken in by it but with a different name on it 

Just to be clear, this one actually says Keithley and is sold by Keithley. It's just designed an manufactured by an OEM, which also sells the unit under another name.

If I pay Keithley money, I expect a Keithley design.

[Specmaster]

I think I see, but surely if it is sold be Keithley as a Keithley then it is a Keithley design yes? It is not unusual for meters to be made by OEM's for another company who take it sell under their own brand such as Keithly. Its also common practise for that OEM to sell the same item under another brand name as their product but they normally have agreements that they will not sell in countries where the propriety brand already has representation and they are not allowed to mention that brand name in their publicity at all.

But I think that where this happens, is normally in locations where the proper brand, i.e. Keithley cannot get a license to export to/or sell to, then they use the back door entrance.

So technically, if you purchase one of these said units, you are still buying a Keithley design as I suspect that Keithley did infact do the design but subbed out the manufacturing, so how much do you think a name should cost extra?

[Mr. Scram]

I think I see, but surely if it is sold be Keithley as a Keithley then it is a Keithley design yes? It is not unusual for meters to be made by OEM's for another company who take it sell under their own brand such as Keithly. Its also common practise for that OEM to sell the same item under another brand name as their product but they normally have agreements that they will not sell in countries where the propriety brand already has representation and they are not allowed to mention that brand name in their publicity at all.

But I think that where this happens, is normally in locations where the proper brand, i.e. Keithley cannot get a license to export to/or sell to, then they use the back door entrance.

So technically, if you purchase one of these said units, you are still buying a Keithley design as I suspect that Keithley did infact do the design but subbed out the manufacturing, so how much do you think a name should cost extra?

From the comments of other people I understand that these models have nothing to do with other Keithley designs. They look like a Keithley on the outside, but are nothing like a Keithley on the inside. The specifications aren't stellar either. I started suspecting something when I couldn't find the counts listed anywhere and my research turned up a couple of threads on the forums about how it's not a proper Keithley at all. Unfortunately, it's what Tektronix seems to be doing more often.

The fact that someone started his repair thread of a 2100 with "please do NOT post to this thread about how the 2100 sucks, blah, blah" should tell you something. 

[Specmaster]

I think I see, but surely if it is sold be Keithley as a Keithley then it is a Keithley design yes? It is not unusual for meters to be made by OEM's for another company who take it sell under their own brand such as Keithly. Its also common practise for that OEM to sell the same item under another brand name as their product but they normally have agreements that they will not sell in countries where the propriety brand already has representation and they are not allowed to mention that brand name in their publicity at all.

But I think that where this happens, is normally in locations where the proper brand, i.e. Keithley cannot get a license to export to/or sell to, then they use the back door entrance.

So technically, if you purchase one of these said units, you are still buying a Keithley design as I suspect that Keithley did infact do the design but subbed out the manufacturing, so how much do you think a name should cost extra?

From the comments of other people I understand that these models have nothing to do with other Keithley designs. They look like a Keithley on the outside, but are nothing like a Keithley on the inside. The specifications aren't stellar either. I started suspecting something when I couldn't find the counts listed anywhere and my research turned up a couple of threads on the forums about how it's not a proper Keithley at all. Unfortunately, it's what Tektronix seems to be doing more often.

The fact that someone started his repair thread of a 2100 with "please do NOT post to this thread about how the 2100 sucks, blah, blah" should tell you something. 

Well as it turns out, apparently both Keithley and Tektronix are now part of the Danaher Corporation along with a lot of other high tech companies> When companies get swallowed up by larger ones, it more often then not results in a rationalisation of their products, designs, manufacturing and also very often sales forces and strategies, which is an area that I personally have experience of.
If a company doesn't asset strip its acquisitions then it will frequently make a scale of economies and that can sometimes take the form of product changes and specifications / cost cutting and that is possibly whats happened here. A former well specified and highly respected product that was already in the market at the time of acquisition has subsequently undergone this process but retained the model number and outward appearance of the original product.  These changes might have been made in order to gain access to new world markets that previously was not open to them. Part of this strategy might well involve a branding element in those countries, who knows for sure?

[Mr. Scram]

Well as it turns out, apparently both Keithley and Tektronix are now part of the Danaher Corporation along with a lot of other high tech companies> When companies get swallowed up by larger ones, it more often then not results in a rationalisation of their products, designs, manufacturing and also very often sales forces and strategies, which is an area that I personally have experience of.
If a company doesn't asset strip its acquisitions then it will frequently make a scale of economies and that can sometimes take the form of product changes and specifications / cost cutting and that is possibly whats happened here. A former well specified and highly respected product that was already in the market at the time of acquisition has subsequently undergone this process but retained the model number and outward appearance of the original product.  These changes might have been made in order to gain access to new world markets that previously was not open to them. Part of this strategy might well involve a branding element in those countries, who knows for sure?

The units are designed and manufactured by Picotest. I don't think that's a part of the Danaher Corporation. Then again, Keysight also farmed their budget oscilloscope out to Rigol, much to their later regret.

[Specmaster]

Well as it turns out, apparently both Keithley and Tektronix are now part of the Danaher Corporation along with a lot of other high tech companies> When companies get swallowed up by larger ones, it more often then not results in a rationalisation of their products, designs, manufacturing and also very often sales forces and strategies, which is an area that I personally have experience of.
If a company doesn't asset strip its acquisitions then it will frequently make a scale of economies and that can sometimes take the form of product changes and specifications / cost cutting and that is possibly whats happened here. A former well specified and highly respected product that was already in the market at the time of acquisition has subsequently undergone this process but retained the model number and outward appearance of the original product.  These changes might have been made in order to gain access to new world markets that previously was not open to them. Part of this strategy might well involve a branding element in those countries, who knows for sure?

The units are designed and manufactured by Picotest. I don't think that's a part of the Danaher Corporation. Then again, Keysight also farmed their budget oscilloscope out to Rigol, much to their later regret.

Precisely my point, when companies get taken over, they give away their ID and control to accountants and this often means someone else making items on their behalf. These days its difficult to keep track of who owns who and where their products are being made and by who. Look at the world of cars for examples, i.e., it is well known that the VW group share a common parts bin and chassis and very often the only things that distinguish one brand name from another in the group are some subtle changes to body panels externally but most parts under the skin are common.

[beanflying]

A lot of the issue is chasing $ against cheaper and increasingly better Asian designed and owned offerings (yep I know there is more crap than great  )

Keithley, Tek, Fluke and HP plus a bunch of others were started because they had a passion and a drive to make better and more accurate test gear and to make a $ selling it and then selling the improved models.

To keep 'growth' improving you need to sell more units as the price reduces so you need to cut corners leading to where some of the old school names have sold their souls to Danaher and their ilk or find themselves forced to prostitute the brand name to survive or introducing BS non new improvements on older designs to save a $.


Rant over now it's time for a beer 

[Specmaster]

Yes, the same has happened in the Hi-Fi world as well.

[bd139]

This sort of shit is why I like TTi. They are 100% independent, not capital backed, no outsourcing etc. One of the few companies that remain in that space.

Keysight are the only other vendor I'm aware of that are still independent. They own their production facilities too in Thailand and have done for decades (this was an HP venture).

The distinguishing feature above is that you can actually just phone either of the companies and talk to a human who knows something instantly.

In each of the independent non-Chinese companies, the quality shows up strong! Problem going forwards for everyone is that the Chinese are starting to do pretty well in this space and the well established vendors have better business ethics and support than the US conglomerates.

[ChrisLX200]

I was looking for software for my Agilent 34401A a couple days ago. There used to be a (free) widget that Agilent distributed that was perfect for the job. Since Keysight took over they stopped that and the replacement (a plugin DMM widget for their Benchvue instrument control suite) supposedly filled the gap. So I downloaded the Benchview platform and also the DMM app for it, started the 30 day trial and yep - the same basic thing as the old free Agilent program. It was a bit basic but meh, it does what I need. So I apply for a quote to buy a license just for the DMM app thinking it must be cheap: £230 !  What? You must be 'kin joking. I guess I'm still looking for something suitable. Can't find the original anywhere on the 'net.

[Mr. Scram]

I was looking for software for my Agilent 34401A a couple days ago. There used to be a (free) widget that Agilent distributed that was perfect for the job. Since Keysight took over they stopped that and the replacement (a plugin DMM widget for their Benchvue instrument control suite) supposedly filled the gap. So I downloaded the Benchview platform and also the DMM app for it, started the 30 day trial and yep - the same basic thing as the old free Agilent program. It was a bit basic but meh, it does what I need. So I apply for a quote to buy a license just for the DMM app thinking it must be cheap: £230 !  What? You must be 'kin joking. I guess I'm still looking for something suitable. Can't find the original anywhere on the 'net.

I plan on writing my own in Visual Studio. Directly talking to a SCPI device isn't terribly complex and you can get as fancy or simple as you like.

[bd139]

Keysight software is shit. All their DMMs come up as a serial port that talks SCPI even if it's undocumented.

I wrote my own python software. The below is about 5 lines of code:

[Specmaster]

This sort of shit is why I like TTi. They are 100% independent, not capital backed, no outsourcing etc. One of the few companies that remain in that space.

Keysight are the only other vendor I'm aware of that are still independent. They own their production facilities too in Thailand and have done for decades (this was an HP venture).

The distinguishing feature above is that you can actually just phone either of the companies and talk to a human who knows something instantly.

In each of the independent non-Chinese companies, the quality shows up strong! Problem going forwards for everyone is that the Chinese are starting to do pretty well in this space and the well established vendors have better business ethics and support than the US conglomerates.

Exactly, long may TTi survive.

From mobile device so predictive text might have struck again [emoji83]

[factory]

Well I had managed to avoid buying any large items of test gear for about 6 months, but this thread is to blame for me needing to buy some higher frequency signal generators.
I picked up this HP 8614A yesterday (800 to 2400 MHz), it's already been put to use checking some of frequency converter modules for my HP5245 counter.


Still need to find the idiots guide to using the transfer oscillator module. 


David

[bd139]

Ah so you bought that. Nice bit of kit

[Neomys Sapiens]

A tip from experience; if you steal a diamond nail file from your SO, that and a little water will work really well at smoothing out the edges of your cut in that ceramic.

You are funny! I have to watch my Vallorbe diamond files (and other fine abrasives) as well as tweezers and decent cutters constantly against abuse from the SO! And her friend. Grrrrrr!

And in which other soldering handpiece did you fit those Magnastat tips? I was first confused about the 'Slug', as I thought that the problem might be the slag!
But fun aside: another important info on Weller tips is that the 'normal' Magnastat tips (for WTCP and before) seem to fit into the mains-powered Magnastat-controlled irons (W60, W61, maybe W100) but will not work properly. Something about the gap between switch and magnet.

Mine is a magnastat. Weller changed the design recently so that the tips have two parts. You have the actual tip which is a small chunk of what it used to be and then the actual magnastat slug. I think this was supposedly so you could swap the 700/600 slugs out and use the same tips which means you don't have to buy larger combinations of tips.

The Weller intention was not to change the design per se. But well, a product killing.
That ugly thing is called the LT-adaptor. They want to phase out all older products by offering such an adaptor for them. The PT-series tips for TCP/Magnastat irons running on 12V or 24V were called PT-series.
Those are 'replaced' by adaptor with an adaptor with a number (corresponding to temperature)+ a LT-tip. The CT-series for the mains voltage Magnastat are still supplied AFAIK.
Gone FIRST and replaced by a MT-LT-adaptor (without number), were the tips for the MLR-21 and 'Peritronic' pencils (working with all 50W (and 80W) EC/PS/DS stations), which were originally called MT-series. Here it becomes ugly, because Weller 'reused' the designation 'MT-series' for the tips of the 'Microtouch' stations resp. their MT1500 pencil.
In a older Weller compatibility table 'MT' points to MLR-21 and  in a newer one to MT1500.
And PLATO has followed suit also replacing them with a WP-80/WSP-80 type, flat-bottomed tip (no slug/no cavity). But now Microtouch is deceased and the Weller web catalogue is leading you to the MT-LT adaptor when you go to 'MT-series'. Grunt.

They don't resemble each one closely, but it is still something which I would like to put into the criminal code: intended or careless destruction of technical-commercial information should be punished with .... lashes with bundled coax WITH connectors + interspersed test leads. By a strong, well trained Gorilla responding to the name of 'Customer'. So that the manager/buffoon/braindead who did it will tremble with fear for the rest of his life when told to think about the customer! Add a branding with the DIL-40 desoldering tip on both buttocks for good measure. Not to sell those tips is as telling people to discontinue using all those square 1/4", 3/8", 1/2" and so on square drives because there is now a 1/4"x3/8" and a 3/8"x1/2" RectDrive(TM). (Pun intended)

Next in line are the tips for the 50W Temtronic/WECP irons (LR20,21,FE50) - replaced by adaptor without a number + an LT-tip.  For those, PLATO still uses the integral type without adaptor.
There is one other ?T-LT adaptor but I'm not sure for what.

Remark: power is nominal tool power, not station label.
Remark: All LT adaptors might need a different retaining nut resp. barrel tube or not, some come with one and some not, depending where you look.

Where it gets ugly again, is that large distributors still list the parts without any hint and even destroying the scarce information that still languished in this Dis-system by inserting their own moronic brand of crude copy-and-paste errors or worse! And you have to use lots of time and nerves to get productioneers, colleagues and the purchasing primate why those tips that BS cramponents sells them do not work even if they order a third lot of them. AAaaaargh!!!!!!
One especially moronic thing that relates to tool catalogues: most of you know TechniTool. For a time they published a catalogue in German. All small cutting pliers were labeled 'auch/besonders zum Schneiden von Bleidraht geeignet ('usable/suitable for cutting wires made of lead') For years! And then you have some Homo Deltaminus stand before you and tell you that XBrand cutters had been bought, but no, they can't be used because the are only for lead wire, so you can't cut copper wire, nono!

I listed my Weller setup (and intentions) here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/micro-soldering/msg1429561/#msg1429561

Since then, a LR-82 iron was thrown at me. I was not sure if I wanted one, because of already having a WSP150, which uses LHT-series tips. The LR-82 uses HT-series tips. Both are fugly expensive and not made by Plato. The LR-82 is not so much handier than the WSP-150 and the selection of tips seems no greater. So it is there and will join the MLR-21 in spare country. I'll rather use the 2 LR-21 with the remaining ET-series tips and the WP-80/WSP-80 with theirs as the more suitable replacement when the ET series is gone.

Another Wellerian 'Verschlimmbesserung' is the bayonet DSX tips. I have a DSX-80 and crave the trusty feel of well treaded threads instead of cheching three times if that thing sits correctly.

I wondered if some matter between the adaptor and the LT tip would help. Unfortunately, I think that thermal paste will not stand the temperature long and I do not know how good the thermal conductivity of the anti-seize paste which is commonly used with desoldering tips (Weller or Edsyn) is.Best I found is one from Dr. Müller named Thermigrease® TG 20041 which is rated for 450°C, but on their Website they also state:
'Our new development of Thermigrease TG 20033 covers a temperature range up to 1200 °C.' See here: http://www.mueller-ahlhorn.com/en/products-materials/material/thermally-conductive-products/waermeleitprodukte/thermal-grease/


Well, see what the WMRS is like. And here they come again: When asking a Weller Techrep about the (internally heated, 3.5mm plug connected soldering irons and tips (and having previously seen the WMRS station and not wanting a flatscreen TV with integral 12V soldering station, I asked them what it is about those tips like the RT-series but for 24V. They said there aren't such tips. All RT-style are 12V.
But the WMRS (shaped like EC2002, PUD8x.., but with silverish front), is listed at some places as being 12V and in some other as being 24V. Those state also that all 24V 50W and 80W tools are usable with the WMRS.
It is really like CommerceByKafka.
(can't be described in such simple terms such as flogging a dead horse, but rather all nine Nazgul clobbering their dead mounts to tartar with cruellest whips and razor spores).
 

[Specmaster]

A tip from experience; if you steal a diamond nail file from your SO, that and a little water will work really well at smoothing out the edges of your cut in that ceramic.

You are funny! I have to watch my Vallorbe diamond files (and other fine abrasives) as well as tweezers and decent cutters constantly against abuse from the SO! And her friend. Grrrrrr!

And in which other soldering handpiece did you fit those Magnastat tips? I was first confused about the 'Slug', as I thought that the problem might be the slag!
But fun aside: another important info on Weller tips is that the 'normal' Magnastat tips (for WTCP and before) seem to fit into the mains-powered Magnastat-controlled irons (W60, W61, maybe W100) but will not work properly. Something about the gap between switch and magnet.

Mine is a magnastat. Weller changed the design recently so that the tips have two parts. You have the actual tip which is a small chunk of what it used to be and then the actual magnastat slug. I think this was supposedly so you could swap the 700/600 slugs out and use the same tips which means you don't have to buy larger combinations of tips.

The Weller intention was not to change the design per se. But well, a product killing.
That ugly thing is called the LT-adaptor. They want to phase out all older products by offering such an adaptor for them. The PT-series tips for TCP/Magnastat irons running on 12V or 24V were called PT-series.
Those are 'replaced' by adaptor with an adaptor with a number (corresponding to temperature)+ a LT-tip. The CT-series for the mains voltage Magnastat are still supplied AFAIK.
Gone FIRST and replaced by a MT-LT-adaptor (without number), were the tips for the MLR-21 and 'Peritronic' pencils (working with all 50W (and 80W) EC/PS/DS stations), which were originally called MT-series. Here it becomes ugly, because Weller 'reused' the designation 'MT-series' for the tips of the 'Microtouch' stations resp. their MT1500 pencil.
In a older Weller compatibility table 'MT' points to MLR-21 and  in a newer one to MT1500.
And PLATO has followed suit also replacing them with a WP-80/WSP-80 type, flat-bottomed tip (no slug/no cavity). But now Microtouch is deceased and the Weller web catalogue is leading you to the MT-LT adaptor when you go to 'MT-series'. Grunt.

They don't resemble each one closely, but it is still something which I would like to put into the criminal code: intended or careless destruction of technical-commercial information should be punished with .... lashes with bundled coax WITH connectors + interspersed test leads. By a strong, well trained Gorilla responding to the name of 'Customer'. So that the manager/buffoon/braindead who did it will tremble with fear for the rest of his life when told to think about the customer! Add a branding with the DIL-40 desoldering tip on both buttocks for good measure. Not to sell those tips is as telling people to discontinue using all those square 1/4", 3/8", 1/2" and so on square drives because there is now a 1/4"x3/8" and a 3/8"x1/2" RectDrive(TM). (Pun intended)

Next in line are the tips for the 50W Temtronic/WECP irons (LR20,21,FE50) - replaced by adaptor without a number + an LT-tip.  For those, PLATO still uses the integral type without adaptor.
There is one other ?T-LT adaptor but I'm not sure for what.

Remark: power is nominal tool power, not station label.
Remark: All LT adaptors might need a different retaining nut resp. barrel tube or not, some come with one and some not, depending where you look.

Where it gets ugly again, is that large distributors still list the parts without any hint and even destroying the scarce information that still languished in this Dis-system by inserting their own moronic brand of crude copy-and-paste errors or worse! And you have to use lots of time and nerves to get productioneers, colleagues and the purchasing primate why those tips that BS cramponents sells them do not work even if they order a third lot of them. AAaaaargh!!!!!!
One especially moronic thing that relates to tool catalogues: most of you know TechniTool. For a time they published a catalogue in German. All small cutting pliers were labeled 'auch/besonders zum Schneiden von Bleidraht geeignet ('usable/suitable for cutting wires made of lead') For years! And then you have some Homo Deltaminus stand before you and tell you that XBrand cutters had been bought, but no, they can't be used because the are only for lead wire, so you can't cut copper wire, nono!

I listed my Weller setup (and intentions) here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/micro-soldering/msg1429561/#msg1429561

Since then, a LR-82 iron was thrown at me. I was not sure if I wanted one, because of already having a WSP150, which uses LHT-series tips. The LR-82 uses HT-series tips. Both are fugly expensive and not made by Plato. The LR-82 is not so much handier than the WSP-150 and the selection of tips seems no greater. So it is there and will join the MLR-21 in spare country. I'll rather use the 2 LR-21 with the remaining ET-series tips and the WP-80/WSP-80 with theirs as the more suitable replacement when the ET series is gone.

Another Wellerian 'Verschlimmbesserung' is the bayonet DSX tips. I have a DSX-80 and crave the trusty feel of well treaded threads instead of cheching three times if that thing sits correctly.

I wondered if some matter between the adaptor and the LT tip would help. Unfortunately, I think that thermal paste will not stand the temperature long and I do not know how good the thermal conductivity of the anti-seize paste which is commonly used with desoldering tips (Weller or Edsyn) is.Best I found is one from Dr. Müller named Thermigrease[emoji768] TG 20041 which is rated for 450°C, but on their Website they also state:
'Our new development of Thermigrease TG 20033 covers a temperature range up to 1200 °C.' See here: http://www.mueller-ahlhorn.com/en/products-materials/material/thermally-conductive-products/waermeleitprodukte/thermal-grease/


Well, see what the WMRS is like. And here they come again: When asking a Weller Techrep about the (internally heated, 3.5mm plug connected soldering irons and tips (and having previously seen the WMRS station and not wanting a flatscreen TV with integral 12V soldering station, I asked them what it is about those tips like the RT-series but for 24V. They said there aren't such tips. All RT-style are 12V.
But the WMRS (shaped like EC2002, PUD8x.., but with silverish front), is listed at some places as being 12V and in some other as being 24V. Those state also that all 24V 50W and 80W tools are usable with the WMRS.
It is really like CommerceByKafka.
(can't be described in such simple terms such as flogging a dead horse, but rather all nine Nazgul clobbering their dead mounts to tartar with cruellest whips and razor spores).

Save a load of bother and use a T12 system, much simpler and easier to use, not that I have any experience of a Weller system though. T12 systems have easy to source and replace tips, I find them perfect for my needs.

From mobile device so predictive text might have struck again [emoji83]

[bd139]

Weller is much easier to use really. Turn it on, do soldering. I used the same tip for ten years once.

However the T12 is much better for SMD.