Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[Wolfgang]

Sniff.

I also had a 1GHz Tek 7104 scope at the top plus the Heathkit VTVM at the bottom.
I must have been young, some time ago.

But on the other hand, my new TEA life is also not bad (see profile).

[bd139]

Very nice neo 

@wolfgang: will poke person to comment on it.

[tautech]

@ Cerebus
Right on the money 100%.
Rarely have I ever seen such an accurate summary and previous commentary on AO. 

Agent Orange - the then manufacturing methods for 2,4-D and 2,4,5-T produced dioxins, as an unintended by-product, in more than trivial quantities. Dioxins are highly toxic, affecting gene expression in all eukaryote species. They poison at a very fundamental level of cell biology that can cause immediate damage, cancer and birth defects. The dread PCBs in old transformer oils are a related and similarly toxic class of chemicals. Any possible acute or chronic toxicity from 2,4-D and 2,4,5-T pales in comparison to the toxicity attributable to the presence of dioxins in Agent Orange.

But one correction, Dioxins were the byproduct of 245-T manufacture and the cleanest and last production was done here in NZ. However such is the toxicity of Dioxin even the very lowest levels are still undesirable and local production was ceased some 30+ years ago.
24D on the other hand is till a very useful pasture weed control tool and modern modified formulations of such are still in widespread use today.

Glysophates by comparison are somewhat innocuous formulations where toxicity gram for gram is similar to common salt. This is established by way of a lethal dose that kills 50% of the lab specimens and is documented as LD50.

[Specmaster]

Thats looking rather good, well done.

[Mr. Scram]

The DP832 opinion poll thread has started !

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-quality-of-the-rigol-dp832(a)

That link doesn't seem to go anywhere.

[Cerebus]

The DP832 opinion poll thread has started !

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-quality-of-the-rigol-dp832(a)

That link doesn't seem to go anywhere.

Try THIS

[med6753]

Bask in AWE!



2"Think sold pine top, rear posts are both 4x6 beams and everything on this table is more that adequate to take my own weight.
There is an under-shelf, holding both tube testers a crt rejuveinwhatsit tester and the oscilloscope i'm fixing for shits and giggles.
Main table is holding (from left to right down to up), Heathkit IM-8, HK ETI-7020, HK-7010, Instek GDM-8034, HK IM-5228, B&K 1801, Instek GFG-8020H, Bel merit FC-200, Fairchild 7050, Fluke 8010, Fluke 8050, Keithley 177, HP 3312A
First shelf is holding (from left to right down to up), HP 608C, random homemade supply, HK 0-12, Paco C-25, HK IN 5281, PD TW-4005, random high current low voltage power supply and then behind then is a pair of 20A @ 20v supplies
Top layer, Tek 7704A with 7A18, 7A26, Tb85 and 7B85 then to its right is a Simpson 415A
That is how much equipment this shelf can hold without overflowing onto the work area, maybe a little more if the pieces are properly shaped.
.... or not.

Me like! Good job! 

[Wolfgang]

Link fixed. The slash at the end got lost, sorry ...

[mnementh]

Clearly there has to be some commonality between the two, as glyphosates are being linked (in studies outside the US, of course) to genetic damage in animals and people similarly to agent orange exposure. It was my understanding that the development of glyphosates was a direct result of that usage, and I guess I conflated that they used agent orange as a base rather than a negative-comparison model, especially when I read of the host of genetic diseases glyphosates are suspected of causing.

I'll be the first to admit my chemistry-Fu is weak, and you clearly have done your research. So please, tell us, if you can, what could be the cause of these concerns with glyphosates? Obviously, the chemical's interaction with plant life is not the same as animal life. Dumb it down for me, please.

Yes, I get the irony here; however I have done a fair amount of research into the subject... enough that I find it scary, but also overwhelmingly technical in a discipline that is alien to me.

mnem
*Makes mental note to do more research*

Agent Orange - the then manufacturing methods for 2,4-D and 2,4,5-T produced dioxins, as an unintended by-product, in more than trivial quantities. Dioxins are highly toxic, affecting gene expression in all eukaryote species. They poison at a very fundamental level of cell biology that can cause immediate damage, cancer and birth defects. The dread PCBs in old transformer oils are a related and similarly toxic class of chemicals. Any possible acute or chronic toxicity from 2,4-D and 2,4,5-T pales in comparison to the toxicity attributable to the presence of dioxins in Agent Orange.

Glyphosate is an organophosphorus compound. The phrase "organophosphorus compound" should set off alarm bells on any biologist or biochemists hearing of it. I don't offhand know of any organophosphorus compounds that could be regarded as intrinsically safe or harmless. On the other hand I know of many hugely toxic and dangerous organophosphorus compounds such as the insecticides malathion, parathion, diazinon, fenthion, dichlorvos, chlorpyrifos, ethion, and trichlorfon; not forgetting the organophosphorus nerve agents soman, sarin, tabun, and VX. With classmates like that no one would blame you for distrusting anyone else in the class. I would not use any organophosphorus compound known to be biologically active without protective equipment including a respirator, gloves, eye protection and a bunny suit or lab coat.

Evil bastards the lot of 'em, I'd trust 'em as far as I could spit, mnem.

Please don't spit me... I'm large and tough and stringy and you'll play hell getting me up on the rotisserie.     Also, it's with a little "m" on purpose, not because I can't be arsed to capitalize. 

That... was pretty effing amazing. It brings the base chemistry much more clearly into view than any other discussion I've seen on AO or glyphosates. Thank you. 

@ Cerebus
Right on the money 100%.
Rarely have I ever seen such an accurate summary and previous commentary on AO. 

But one correction, Dioxins were the byproduct of 245-T manufacture and the cleanest and last production was done here in NZ. However such is the toxicity of Dioxin even the very lowest levels are still undesirable and local production was ceased some 30+ years ago.
24D on the other hand is till a very useful pasture weed control tool and modern modified formulations of such are still in widespread use today.

Glysophates by comparison are somewhat innocuous formulations where toxicity gram for gram is similar to common salt. This is established by way of a lethal dose that kills 50% of the lab specimens and is documented as LD50.

The really big problem with glyphosates is not just the potential effects, but the fact that Monsanto-Bayer A) have been engaged for decades in a brutal multimillion dollar campaign to PREVENT any meaningful studies on the damage they and neonicotinids pose to those living near where they are used, and have shown time & again that they will bring the Litigation Angels of Death down upon any scientist who dares suggest the food they spray it on isn't safe to eat, and 2) are literally producing this shit by the oil-tanker-full to distribute worldwide as part of their GMO/Pesticide/Herbicide Global Hegemony campaign. The "relatively harmless" notion you suggest is meaningless in the face of THAT kind of volume. The fact they're fighting so hard to keep it from being studied tells me they already know just how dangerous the shit is, and that it's VERY dangerous, but they don;t give a fuck as long as it helps them promote their stranglehold on the world's food supply.

The GMO foods they are producing are specifically so the plants are able to withstand the toxic cocktail of pesticides and to prevent collateral damage of crops in areas cleared of "nuisance verge" with their herbicides.

It should scare the shit out of ANYONE to think that the whole reason for GMOs is because they're pouring so much poison on our food that it kills the food too...

An interesting side note re: dioxins. They were first discovered as a byproduct of the bleaching of wood pulp for paper. Both the county I grew up in Central New York and later in Pittsburgh had areas declared hazardous waste disasters due to the abandoned waste escaping unregulated storage from shuttered paper mills.

  Bask in AWE!     2" Think sold pine top, rear posts are both 4x6 beams and everything on this table is more that adequate to take my own weight. There is an under-shelf, holding both tube testers a crt rejuveinwhatsit tester and the oscilloscope i'm fixing for shits and giggles. Main table is holding (from left to right down to up), Heathkit IM-8, HK ETI-7020, HK-7010, Instek GDM-8034, HK IM-5228, B&K 1801, Instek GFG-8020H, Bel merit FC-200, Fairchild 7050, Fluke 8010, Fluke 8050, Keithley 177, HP 3312A.

First shelf is holding (from left to right down to up), HP 608C, random homemade supply, HK 0-12, Paco C-25, HK IN 5281, PD TW-4005, random high current low voltage power supply and then behind then is a pair of 20A @ 20v supplies. Top layer, Tek 7704A with 7A18, 7A26, Tb85 and 7B85 then to its right is a Simpson 415A. That is how much equipment this shelf can hold without overflowing onto the work area, maybe a little more if the pieces are properly shaped.
.... or not.

I like the overall "industrial loft reclamation project" feel of the thing; that prominent "Property of Coca-Cola" stamp is a nice touch.   

The "7704 of Damacles" is a bit high to be convenient as one would want for a "go-to" piece of equipment, and usually people configure a bench with scopes, meters, signal sources higher at eye level, and power supplies, speakers, loading devices at work surface level. It's all about optimizing the layout to be convenient for workflow.

Nicely done overall!

Once you start using the bench for actual work you'll rearrange stuff to be convenient for you... the template I suggest is just that; a suggestion based on observation of a LOT of installations.

mnem
*Sghetti & meatballz time*

[xrunner]

Agent Orange - the then manufacturing methods for 2,4-D and 2,4,5-T produced dioxins, as an unintended by-product, in more than trivial quantities. Dioxins are highly toxic, affecting gene expression in all eukaryote species. They poison at a very fundamental level of cell biology that can cause immediate damage, cancer and birth defects. The dread PCBs in old transformer oils are a related and similarly toxic class of chemicals. Any possible acute or chronic toxicity from 2,4-D and 2,4,5-T pales in comparison to the toxicity attributable to the presence of dioxins in Agent Orange.

Why is there a discussion of Agent Orange in a test equipment thread. Can you please do it in the General Chat area?

[neo]

(1)I like the overall "industrial loft reclamation project" feel of the thing; that prominent "Property of Coca-Cola" stamp is a nice touch.   

(2)The "7704 of Damacles" is a bit high to be convenient as one would want for a "go-to" piece of equipment, and usually people configure a bench with scopes, meters, signal sources higher at eye level, and power supplies, speakers, loading devices at work surface level. It's all about optimizing the layout to be convenient for workflow.

(3)Nicely done overall!

(4)Once you start using the bench for actual work you'll rearrange stuff to be convenient for you... the template I suggest is just that; a suggestion based on observation of a LOT of installations.

mnem
*Sghetti & meatballz time*

(1)Yeah, i have two property of coca cola stamps, both are them are in the front and both are on oak 2x4s. Quite impressed you saw it, i took an entire pallet apart just for those two property of coca cola 2x4s, the fact they were oak doesn't hurt. So far as the reclaimed effect I worked with what i had only buying the rear beams themselves and a handful of 2x4s.
(2) I made the tilted shelf for the oscilloscope, so i then had to get at least one shot of it once up there however i'm not entirely sure i like it or not.  Might be that i'll just put it on the table itself and (eventually) get something that will work up there in its place or even just take the angle out entirely, though i don't really know till i try and use it, same with everything else really.  But the highlight of it being upthere is that it is just at arms length, though i have to stand, all i have to do is look up and it's there, but not right there in the way as it was previously.
(3) Thank you!
(4) Exactly that, this arrangement is just a preliminary arrangement, there is no guarantee that it will stay put. Name of the game, try something and if you don't like it try something else.

The above points aside here was my reasoning for the layout; my favorite, or most used, apparatuses are at table level, the power supplies are just above and then the top shelf which is holding the Simpson is storage alongside the under-shelf. The one flaw with this table is the rear equipment is such that i have to stand to reach, i can move the table level one though if i was so inclined. With the under-shelf if i wanted i could use it for the most important equipment to keep at hands reach, or alternatively i also have a desk to the right of the table which i can use similarly. Ultimately however this is just version 1 of probably 1001, i find it best to not put too much thought into it and just leave your options open it WILL sort itself out eventually.

If presented with instability quite often the best idea is to step back and allow anarchy to reign, either the instability will stabilize or it will kill itself trying. The best you can do is give it a few good nudges in the correct direction.

[Mr. Scram]

Why is there a discussion of Agent Orange in a test equipment thread. Can you please do it in the General Chat area?

This thread has always been the forum meeting point and has had a lot of leeway in regards to subject matter. The moment to be strict seems to have passed ages ago.

[tggzzz]

Agent Orange - the then manufacturing methods for 2,4-D and 2,4,5-T produced dioxins, as an unintended by-product, in more than trivial quantities. Dioxins are highly toxic, affecting gene expression in all eukaryote species. They poison at a very fundamental level of cell biology that can cause immediate damage, cancer and birth defects. The dread PCBs in old transformer oils are a related and similarly toxic class of chemicals. Any possible acute or chronic toxicity from 2,4-D and 2,4,5-T pales in comparison to the toxicity attributable to the presence of dioxins in Agent Orange.

Why is there a discussion of Agent Orange in a test equipment thread. Can you please do it in the General Chat area?

This thread has degenerated into a poor version of Twatter, with messages akin to "my parcel is coming up the driveway" and similar.

[mnementh]

It's here because this is where our friends are, and we tolerate a certain level of OT here. In all honesty, we find "OT Nazi-ing" generally much more offensive than a page or two of OT.

It is in large part that tolerance which has made this one of the most popular threads on the server.

Cheers,

mnem
*Off. Slightly.*

[Mr. Scram]

This thread has degenerated into a poor version of Twatter, with messages akin to "my parcel is coming up the driveway" and similar.

Does that make us a collection of twats?

[xrunner]

It's here because this is where our friends are, and we tolerate a certain level of OT here. In all honesty, we find "OT Nazi-ing" generally much more offensive than a page or two of OT.

Well I have a lot of friends here too go figure. It's off topic. WAY off topic. So that's what the General chat area is for. If you want to talk Agent Orange or Pepperoni pizza recipes you can go there  - that's what it's for. This is the Test Equipment Board and a thread about test equipment - Not Agent Orange.

It is in large part that tolerance which has made this one of the most popular threads on the server.

I've been on it a long time mnementh, and it's mostly all test equipment. Going off page after page on Agent Orange isn't what makes it a popular thread.

xrunner
*Letting Loose*
 

[tautech]

Clearly there has to be some commonality between the two, as glyphosates are being linked (in studies outside the US, of course) to genetic damage in animals and people similarly to agent orange exposure. It was my understanding that the development of glyphosates was a direct result of that usage, and I guess I conflated that they used agent orange as a base rather than a negative-comparison model, especially when I read of the host of genetic diseases glyphosates are suspected of causing.

I'll be the first to admit my chemistry-Fu is weak, and you clearly have done your research. So please, tell us, if you can, what could be the cause of these concerns with glyphosates? Obviously, the chemical's interaction with plant life is not the same as animal life. Dumb it down for me, please.

Yes, I get the irony here; however I have done a fair amount of research into the subject... enough that I find it scary, but also overwhelmingly technical in a discipline that is alien to me.

mnem
*Makes mental note to do more research*

Agent Orange - the then manufacturing methods for 2,4-D and 2,4,5-T produced dioxins, as an unintended by-product, in more than trivial quantities. Dioxins are highly toxic, affecting gene expression in all eukaryote species. They poison at a very fundamental level of cell biology that can cause immediate damage, cancer and birth defects. The dread PCBs in old transformer oils are a related and similarly toxic class of chemicals. Any possible acute or chronic toxicity from 2,4-D and 2,4,5-T pales in comparison to the toxicity attributable to the presence of dioxins in Agent Orange.

Glyphosate is an organophosphorus compound. The phrase "organophosphorus compound" should set off alarm bells on any biologist or biochemists hearing of it. I don't offhand know of any organophosphorus compounds that could be regarded as intrinsically safe or harmless. On the other hand I know of many hugely toxic and dangerous organophosphorus compounds such as the insecticides malathion, parathion, diazinon, fenthion, dichlorvos, chlorpyrifos, ethion, and trichlorfon; not forgetting the organophosphorus nerve agents soman, sarin, tabun, and VX. With classmates like that no one would blame you for distrusting anyone else in the class. I would not use any organophosphorus compound known to be biologically active without protective equipment including a respirator, gloves, eye protection and a bunny suit or lab coat.

Evil bastards the lot of 'em, I'd trust 'em as far as I could spit, mnem.

Please don't spit me... I'm large and tough and stringy and you'll play hell getting me up on the rotisserie.     Also, it's with a little "m" on purpose, not because I can't be arsed to capitalize. 

That... was pretty effing amazing. It brings the base chemistry much more clearly into view than any other discussion I've seen on AO or glyphosates. Thank you. 

@ Cerebus
Right on the money 100%.
Rarely have I ever seen such an accurate summary and previous commentary on AO. 

But one correction, Dioxins were the byproduct of 245-T manufacture and the cleanest and last production was done here in NZ. However such is the toxicity of Dioxin even the very lowest levels are still undesirable and local production was ceased some 30+ years ago.
24D on the other hand is till a very useful pasture weed control tool and modern modified formulations of such are still in widespread use today.

Glysophates by comparison are somewhat innocuous formulations where toxicity gram for gram is similar to common salt. This is established by way of a lethal dose that kills 50% of the lab specimens and is documented as LD50.

The really big problem with glyphosates is not just the potential effects, but the fact that Monsanto-Bayer A) have been engaged for decades in a brutal multimillion dollar campaign to PREVENT any meaningful studies on the damage they and neonicotinids pose to those living near where they are used, and have shown time & again that they will bring the Litigation Angels of Death down upon any scientist who dares suggest the food they spray it on isn't safe to eat, and 2) are literally producing this shit by the oil-tanker-full to distribute worldwide as part of their GMO/Pesticide/Herbicide Global Hegemony campaign. The "relatively harmless" notion you suggest is meaningless in the face of THAT kind of volume. The fact they're fighting so hard to keep it from being studied tells me they already know just how dangerous the shit is, and that it's VERY dangerous, but they don;t give a fuck as long as it helps them promote their stranglehold on the world's food supply.

The GMO foods they are producing are specifically so the plants are able to withstand the toxic cocktail of pesticides and to prevent collateral damage of crops in areas cleared of "nuisance verge" with their herbicides.

It should scare the shit out of ANYONE to think that the whole reason for GMOs is because they're pouring so much poison on our food that it kills the food too...

An interesting side note re: dioxins. They were first discovered as a byproduct of the bleaching of wood pulp for paper. Both the county I grew up in Central New York and later in Pittsburgh had areas declared hazardous waste disasters due to the abandoned waste escaping unregulated storage from shuttered paper mills.

mnem
*Sghetti & meatballz time*

To get a decent grasp is to understand the philosophy of chemicals usage and why we need to use them.
Herbicides, vaccines, fertilizers, antibiotics, GE plants and so on and on.

All affect our quality of live, sustainability and productive capability to provide for the existing population and our ability into the future.
WRT food production, we can no longer plant, control disease or weeds and harvest by hand so it must be mechanized so nuisances like weeds that might clog machinery or contaminate the harvest need be managed so they don't. Traditionally selective sprays were used but just like any organism weeds develop immunity so rather than pursue the past methods of a decade of chemical research to find new compounds suitable for 'safe' control, modern science has opened the path of GE so that crops can be modified to resist the use of the 'desirably low toxicity' chemicals to control those weeds to maintain or grow production levels and quality.
Is GE good or bad or is it no different to the centuries of selective breeding of plants and animals that has already taken place ?
The modern way of thinking that a compound that controls/kills something else 'must be bad' is the issue here rather than examine the documentation that demonstrates safeness and suitability from a plethora of blind and 2nd/3rd party tests.
Just because the public has zero perception/comprehension of the depth of research involved before products even gets to market certainly reveals they are much like a mob of sheep, just blindly following some leader. 

[mnementh]

It's here because this is where our friends are, and we tolerate a certain level of OT here. In all honesty, we find "OT Nazi-ing" generally much more offensive than a page or two of OT.

Well I have a lot of friends here too go figure. It's off topic. WAY off topic. So that's what the General chat area is for. If you want to talk Agent Orange or Pepperoni pizza recipes you can go there  - that's what it's for. This is the Test Equipment Board and a thread about test equipment - Not Agent Orange.

It is in large part that tolerance which has made this one of the most popular threads on the server.

I've been on it a long time mnementh, and it's mostly all test equipment. Going off page after page on Agent Orange isn't what makes it a popular thread.

xrunner
*Letting Loose*
 

There... you've got that off your chest. I hope you feel better. You have a right to your opinion, just as you have a right to choose which haunts you frequent.

That said... I will not be browbeaten into censoring the discussion for anything short of outright trolling or personal attack. I have a pretty well-developed sense of where the OT line is, both in nature and duration, and I've probably herded more cats moderated more discussions than you've seen over the last 3 decades.

On this point then, I shall hold my own counsel above yours, thank you.

Cheers,

mnem
*Toddles off to ded*

[xrunner]

There... you've got that off your chest. I hope you feel better. You have a right to your opinion, just as you have a right to choose which haunts you frequent.

Thank you.

That said... I will not be browbeaten into censoring the discussion for anything short of outright trolling or personal attack. I have a pretty well-developed sense of where the OT line is, both in nature and duration, and I've probably herded more cats moderated more discussions than you've seen over the last 3 decades.

I doubt it, I used to own a forum and also Admin two others. No, I doubt you've moderated more than I have.

Ah but I didn't ask you to censor a thing. See you're getting so flustered you aren't taking time to think. I can't tell you what to do. I asked you to do the discussion in the proper area (Chat) as a friendly request. Didn't you say we're all friends here? That is not censoring. Far from it, it's simply organizing the discussions to where they should be.

On this point then, I shall hold my own counsel above yours, thank you.

As I do above yours as regards this talk. 

xrunnner
*telling it like it is*

[mnementh]

To get a decent grasp is to understand the philosophy of chemicals usage and why we need to use them.
Herbicides, vaccines, fertilizers, antibiotics, GE plants and so on and on.

All affect our quality of live, sustainability and productive capability to provide for the existing population and our ability into the future.
WRT food production, we can no longer plant, control disease or weeds and harvest by hand so it must be mechanized so nuisances like weeds that might clog machinery or contaminate the harvest need be managed so they don't. Traditionally selective sprays were used but just like any organism weeds develop immunity so rather than pursue the past methods of a decade of chemical research to find new compounds suitable for 'safe' control, modern science has opened the path of GE so that crops can be modified to resist the use of the 'desirably low toxicity' chemicals to control those weeds to maintain or grow production levels and quality.
Is GE good or bad or is it no different to the centuries of selective breeding of plants and animals that has already taken place ?
The modern way of thinking that a compound that controls/kills something else 'must be bad' is the issue here rather than examine the documentation that demonstrates safeness and suitability from a plethora of blind and 2nd/3rd party tests.
Just because the public has zero perception/comprehension of the depth of research involved before products even gets to market certainly reveals they are much like a mob of sheep, just blindly following some leader. 

The notion that we must have factory farms is a lie promoted by those who profit from them. At one time, American family farms provided not only almost every foodstuff America needed, but also supported the economies of our European neighbors with a nearly threefold surplus of export. Yes we have three times as many citizens as we did then, but also has RESPONSIBLE modern farming practice resulted in a great increase in productivity from the same acreage, as has been demonstrated repeatedly in other parts of the world.

The manner in which we use these chemicals is clearly not moderated in any way by their necessity to the species as a whole, but to concentrate financial gain to the hands of a few, no matter what the cost.

All you have to do to see that is to Follow. The. Money.

Cheers,

mnem
*Shortened for brevity's sake*

[mnementh]

There... you've got that off your chest. I hope you feel better. You have a right to your opinion, just as you have a right to choose which haunts you frequent.

Thank you.

That said... I will not be browbeaten into censoring the discussion for anything short of outright trolling or personal attack. I have a pretty well-developed sense of where the OT line is, both in nature and duration, and I've probably herded more cats moderated more discussions than you've seen over the last 3 decades.

I doubt it, I used to own a forum and also Admin two others. No, I doubt you've moderated more than I have.

Ah but I didn't ask you to censor a thing. See you're getting so flustered you aren't taking time to think. I can't tell you what to do. I asked you to do the discussion in the proper area (Chat) as a friendly request. Didn't you say we're all friends here? That is not censoring. Far from it, it's simply organizing the discussions to where they should be.

On this point then, I shall hold my own counsel above yours, thank you.

As I do above yours as regards this talk. 

xrunnner
*telling it like it is*

LOL... three at once? How quaint.

And I suppose that you know better than everybody having the conversation where that conversation belongs? 

I took plenty of time to think, and I chose my words very carefully as not to be personally offensive. Just because you don't see the browbeating you are attempting to engage in doesn't mean it isn't there.

mnem
*Telling it like it is*

[xrunner]

And I suppose that you know better than everybody having the conversation where that conversation belongs? 

In this particular case of agent orange ... absolutely!

xrunner
*I quote from HAL - "Has never made a mistake or distorted information"*

[Mr. Scram]

I'm going to be facetious and remark that a discussion about other forums and moderation is off-topic in this thread. Could you lads please move along?

[mnementh]

And I suppose that you know better than everybody having the conversation where that conversation belongs? 

In this particular case of agent orange ... absolutely!

xrunner
*I quote from HAL - "Has never made a mistake or distorted information"*

Words cannot describe how utterly narcissistic that statement is.

Fine, you win the internet. There, satisfied?

mnem
"Teacher, may I be excused?"

[xrunner]

I'm going to be facetious and remark that a discussion about other forums and moderation is off-topic in this thread. Could you lads please move along?

Sure Mr. Scram great idea I'm all for it - let's all get back to the topic - TEA!