Author Topic: Tektronix TDS744 CRT to LCD color converter FPGA module DIY  (Read 14386 times)

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Offline TerrySt

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Re: Tektronix TDS744 CRT to LCD color converter FPGA module DIY
« Reply #50 on: December 11, 2023, 08:15:45 pm »
It looks like the Spartan 6 supports LVDS_33 and LVDS_25.  But the Spartan 7 supports LVDS_18 and LVDS_25, but not LVDS_33.  So the Spartan 7 dev boards that have 3.3V applied to VCCO (all of them that I found) cannot support LVDS.

Terry
 

Offline ltarjanyi75

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Re: Tektronix TDS744 CRT to LCD color converter FPGA module DIY
« Reply #51 on: December 11, 2023, 08:39:59 pm »
I have checked the Spartan 3 and 6 datasheet. LVDS_33 and LVDS_25 use the same DC charasteristics of user I/Os (e.g. same output common mode voltage). The difference is the necessary output driver supply voltage level, VCCO (2.5V for LVDS_25 and 3.3 for LVDS_33).

So I think Terry, you could also use directly the LVDS I/Os of your Spartan 7 devboard (I assume it works the same way, though I have not checked the Spartan 7 documentation).
 

Offline ltarjanyi75

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Re: Tektronix TDS744 CRT to LCD color converter FPGA module DIY
« Reply #52 on: December 11, 2023, 08:42:48 pm »
It looks like the Spartan 6 supports LVDS_33 and LVDS_25.  But the Spartan 7 supports LVDS_18 and LVDS_25, but not LVDS_33.  So the Spartan 7 dev boards that have 3.3V applied to VCCO (all of them that I found) cannot support LVDS.

I see, then it is different for Spartan 7...
 

Offline Tantratron

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Re: Tektronix TDS744 CRT to LCD color converter FPGA module DIY
« Reply #53 on: December 12, 2023, 08:23:28 am »
Just found that article regarding the 1.2V center offset, the topic of LVDS_25 LVDS_33 and other
https://www.diodes.com/assets/App-Note-Files/AN041-P.pdf

Note that sentence from page 1... It has an offset voltage of 1.2V above ground. Because its operating voltage is centered around 1.2V with respect to the driver􏰀s ground, LVDS does not depend on a specific power supply such as 5V or 3.3V making it easy for LVDS to migrate to new low supply voltage technology. Since it is centered around 1.2V, it is also less susceptible to noise since noise often occurs at Vcc or Ground.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2023, 08:32:50 am by Tantratron »
 

Offline TerrySt

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Re: Tektronix TDS744 CRT to LCD color converter FPGA module DIY
« Reply #54 on: December 12, 2023, 02:12:46 pm »
Just found that article regarding the 1.2V center offset, the topic of LVDS_25 LVDS_33 and other
https://www.diodes.com/assets/App-Note-Files/AN041-P.pdf

Note that sentence from page 1... It has an offset voltage of 1.2V above ground. Because its operating voltage is centered around 1.2V with respect to the driver􏰀s ground, LVDS does not depend on a specific power supply such as 5V or 3.3V making it easy for LVDS to migrate to new low supply voltage technology. Since it is centered around 1.2V, it is also less susceptible to noise since noise often occurs at Vcc or Ground.

But unfortunately the Spartan 7 will not allow me to use the LVDS outputs unless the bank voltage (VCCO) is set to 2.5V.
From the I/O User Guide:  https://docs.xilinx.com/v/u/en-US/ug471_7Series_SelectIO   Page 91.

The LVDS I/O standard is only available in the HP I/O banks. It requires a VCCO to be
powered at 1.8V for outputs and for inputs when the optional internal differential
termination is implemented (DIFF_TERM = TRUE).
The LVDS_25 I/O standard is only available in the HR I/O banks. It requires a VCCO to be
powered at 2.5V for outputs and for inputs

The Spartan 3 and Spartan 6 allow LVDS on Banks powered by 3.3V, but the Spartan 7 does not.
The Spartan 3 would be a better choice for this project, but I have decided to use the Spartan 7 mainly because the new version of the tools (Vivado) does not support the older chips.  I am doing this mainly as a learning exercise, so want to use the latest tools.  Also, I want to try my hand at working with BGA parts (layout and assembly).  I don't know if I'll be successful, but this is a hobby for me now (I'm retired).  If I was doing this to make a product for the marketplace, I would probably use the Spartan 3N, which is non-volatile, so doesn't need the serial EEPROM for configuration.

Terry
 

Offline TERRA Operative

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Re: Tektronix TDS744 CRT to LCD color converter FPGA module DIY
« Reply #55 on: December 17, 2023, 01:51:41 pm »
I just had a bit of fun in CAD tonight, whipped up a v1.0 mounting bracket and front bezel.
I can't help with the software side of things, but CAD and PCB layout is where I'm able to lend a hand. :)

The front bezel should be no thicker than 1.0mm, and the mounting bracket should be 1.2mm thick (To match the thicknesses used by Tektronix)
The LCD panel is screwed to the mounting bracket with 6mm long M2.5mm screws and washers, passing through 2mm tall standoffs that are located between the mounting bracket and LCD.
This should result in a perfectly centered display with minimal fuss.

Where does all this test equipment keep coming from?!?

https://www.youtube.com/NearFarMedia/
 
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Offline ltarjanyi75

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Re: Tektronix TDS744 CRT to LCD color converter FPGA module DIY
« Reply #56 on: December 23, 2023, 10:12:58 pm »
I also re-shaped the contacts in the socket to allow them to grip the RamDAC chip better. 

So far I was not able to get good contacts with my PLCC socket. I just get signals on the pins when I push the socket down. :(
Will try the smd version, if I will be able to solder it, which looks quite challenging to me...
 

Offline TerrySt

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Re: Tektronix TDS744 CRT to LCD color converter FPGA module DIY
« Reply #57 on: December 24, 2023, 01:39:05 am »
I also re-shaped the contacts in the socket to allow them to grip the RamDAC chip better. 

So far I was not able to get good contacts with my PLCC socket. I just get signals on the pins when I push the socket down. :(
Will try the smd version, if I will be able to solder it, which looks quite challenging to me...

Which socket did you try?

Terry
 

Offline Tantratron

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Re: Tektronix TDS744 CRT to LCD color converter FPGA module DIY
« Reply #58 on: December 24, 2023, 08:58:16 am »
So far I was not able to get good contacts with my PLCC socket. I just get signals on the pins when I push the socket down. :(
Will try the smd version, if I will be able to solder it, which looks quite challenging to me...
How many pins from U199 one needs to electrically access and routed to the FPGA ?

There are total of 4x11 so 44 pins but what is the layout (position), which pins are actually necessary ?

Maybe quick picture or local layout to help visualize the density to be managed ?
 

Offline TerrySt

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Re: Tektronix TDS744 CRT to LCD color converter FPGA module DIY
« Reply #59 on: December 24, 2023, 03:02:00 pm »
So far I was not able to get good contacts with my PLCC socket. I just get signals on the pins when I push the socket down. :(
Will try the smd version, if I will be able to solder it, which looks quite challenging to me...
How many pins from U199 one needs to electrically access and routed to the FPGA ?

There are total of 4x11 so 44 pins but what is the layout (position), which pins are actually necessary ?

Maybe quick picture or local layout to help visualize the density to be managed ?

You need 22 signals (plus ground although you could get that elsewhere). 
The SMT socket from Methode (p/n 213044601) is the only socket I found that works without modification, although it just barely works.  It will lock down onto the ramdac chip with a bit of fiddling with it, and contacts all the pins, but it pops back off rather easily in my opinion.
No other SMT socket I tried even came close to working.
Of the several through-hole sockets I tried, none worked without modification.  They would not make contact with all the pins unless you pressed on them.  The modifications involved removing some of the plastic at the bottom of the socket so that it would fit down onto the ramdac chip further. 
The easiest one to modify is the ASSMAN A-CCS 044-G-T (DigiKey pp/n AE10064).  On it, you can just use a sharp knife to cut away four little posts on the bottom of the socket.  That let it fit onto the chip and make contact, but again, just barely.  So I also removed each individual contact (pretty easy to do) and re-shaped the contacts so that it made better contact at the top of the socket.  Sanding the top edge of the socket off a little also helps.  I'm attaching a picture of before/after.  It works well after the mods.
I prefer the Methode p/n 213044401 through hole socket although it is harder to modify.  You need a milling machine or at least a dremel with steady hands to remove the plastic from the bottom of the socket.  But the contacts can be removed all at once and re-shaped in a row.  I found that easier than the one at a time ASSMAN contacts. 
Either one might work with just removing the plastic at the bottom (without re-shaping the contacts), but definitely better after re-shaping the contacts.

Edit:  On my TDS524A, there are a few small SMD resistors that sit very close to the ramdac so that I also needed to file a little plastic on one edge of the sockets to avoid hitting them.


« Last Edit: December 24, 2023, 03:10:54 pm by TerrySt »
 

Offline ltarjanyi75

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« Last Edit: December 25, 2023, 12:25:42 am by ltarjanyi75 »
 

Offline ltarjanyi75

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Re: Tektronix TDS744 CRT to LCD color converter FPGA module DIY
« Reply #61 on: December 25, 2023, 12:31:17 am »
How many pins from U199 one needs to electrically access and routed to the FPGA ?

As Terry wrote, 22 pins + GND has to be accessed, he also included a schematic.
If it helps I can also make a picture of the RAMDAC area of the scope...
 

Offline TerrySt

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Re: Tektronix TDS744 CRT to LCD color converter FPGA module DIY
« Reply #62 on: December 25, 2023, 01:14:33 am »
All of the through hole sockets I’ve looked at have a removable bottom that allows you to get to the contacts to re-shape them.  The SMT sockets don’t however.
 

Offline Tantratron

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Re: Tektronix TDS744 CRT to LCD color converter FPGA module DIY
« Reply #63 on: December 25, 2023, 09:22:52 am »
Merry Christmas All,

As Terry wrote, 22 pins + GND has to be accessed, he also included a schematic.
If it helps I can also make a picture of the RAMDAC area of the scope...

Yes please, picture would help me to vizualize.

All of the through hole sockets I’ve looked at have a removable bottom that allows you to get to the contacts to re-shape them.  The SMT sockets don’t however.

Attached again picture I've grabbed from an italian eBay seller few years ago which as re-selling the first version based on Hitachi LCD-TFT unit. We can guess printed a M on brown socket (top left), do you know if this means the brand is METHODE ?

Are you really sure there is not Methode socket which does not not require any milling or grinding ?

Later Simmcon Labs made FPGA board to work with AUO LCD-TFT but there is no reason why socket would change since U199 chip has always been the same on any TDSxxx lofic board.

 

Offline ltarjanyi75

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Re: Tektronix TDS744 CRT to LCD color converter FPGA module DIY
« Reply #64 on: December 25, 2023, 10:22:56 am »
All of the through hole sockets I’ve looked at have a removable bottom that allows you to get to the contacts to re-shape them.

You are right again. I could remove the bottom of the socket. But for sure, you must be very patient!
I already succeeded to break some pins, and I don't know that the ones I didn't will be ok at the end. Finishing with 44 pins is a real puzzle.
 
 

Offline ltarjanyi75

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Re: Tektronix TDS744 CRT to LCD color converter FPGA module DIY
« Reply #65 on: December 25, 2023, 10:42:31 am »
Yes please, picture would help me to vizualize.

Here is a picture about the RAMDAC area.


And to share the progress of my project, a picture about my power board. This will generate the 12V and 3.3V to LCD and 3.3V to my FPGA board (which is still under design). For sure this was the easier part and so far only could test in the scope and with a separate Spartan 6 devboard.

« Last Edit: December 25, 2023, 10:47:32 am by ltarjanyi75 »
 

Offline ltarjanyi75

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Re: Tektronix TDS744 CRT to LCD color converter FPGA module DIY
« Reply #66 on: December 25, 2023, 03:09:03 pm »
My best solution so far: soldered the smd version of the socket I have, then after soldering I cut off the plastic base from the bottom of the socket. It was quite easy. Now the socket grabs the RAMDAC correctly.

« Last Edit: December 25, 2023, 03:11:21 pm by ltarjanyi75 »
 
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Offline TerrySt

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Re: Tektronix TDS744 CRT to LCD color converter FPGA module DIY
« Reply #67 on: December 25, 2023, 03:56:59 pm »
My best solution so far: soldered the smd version of the socket I have, then after soldering I cut off the plastic base from the bottom of the socket. It was quite easy. Now the socket grabs the RAMDAC correctly.



Great!  I'll have to try that also.

Terry
 

Offline ltarjanyi75

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Re: Tektronix TDS744 CRT to LCD color converter FPGA module DIY
« Reply #68 on: December 29, 2023, 07:05:11 pm »
First results with my board in the scope. I reused Vincent's great code and Xilinx's xapp486 7:1 Serializer example code.

I still have some issues with the result (some random pixel noise, strange color changes and some issues with graph colors), but at least I see something on the LCD.

Also the contact of the PLCC socket is still not the best. At first attempt my image on the screen had some red pixel noise (can be seen on one of the pictures) which somehow disappeared after I pushed the board a bit more to RAMDAC.

I also have a soldering issue with my flash memory chip on the board (short on one of the SPI pins), so I have to reload the code to FPGA after every restart. But since it does not impact the other part of the FPGA, I have not yet tried to resolder the chip. First I wanted to make sure that my design could work at all...

Attached a short video also...



Video: https://1drv.ms/v/s!Am44vwFO-Vr3grcEEeiL6_0ZZbcnnQ

« Last Edit: December 29, 2023, 07:11:21 pm by ltarjanyi75 »
 

Offline TerrySt

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Re: Tektronix TDS744 CRT to LCD color converter FPGA module DIY
« Reply #69 on: December 29, 2023, 07:27:04 pm »
Nice work.  Great board design.  Very compact.
I also had issues with random colors sometimes with Vincent's VHDL code.  I couldn't get my head around some of the stuff he was doing in it, so I re-wrote it.  I think my version (posted up above) is simpler and seems 100% stable.

Terry
 

Offline ltarjanyi75

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Re: Tektronix TDS744 CRT to LCD color converter FPGA module DIY
« Reply #70 on: December 29, 2023, 10:45:19 pm »
Thanks! The board could be made even more compact by removing the reset button, oscillator and JTAG/config pins in the final design. I could have also thought of including some debug pins/leds at the beginning. These would come handy now...

I have compiled your code also with some necessary modifications because of the difference of Spartan 3 (or the lack of my fpga development knowledge) and tested it. Now the background is perfect, but I still have issues with the singal traces: these move slow, have "ghost image", change color and also disappear sometimes from the screen. I don't now if it could be because of the difference between Spartan 3 and 7 versions...

If anyone with more experience in VHDL/FPGA development could help what could be the problem, that would be great! :)

 

Offline TerrySt

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Re: Tektronix TDS744 CRT to LCD color converter FPGA module DIY
« Reply #71 on: December 30, 2023, 12:43:04 am »
I can't imagine what would cause slow moving or ghost image traces in the LCD.  Are you sure it is not just a setting on the o'scope?  Like variable persistence or similar?

Terry
 

Offline Tantratron

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Re: Tektronix TDS744 CRT to LCD color converter FPGA module DIY
« Reply #72 on: December 30, 2023, 11:18:15 am »
I still have some issues with the result (some random pixel noise, strange color changes and some issues with graph colors), but at least I see something on the LCD.

Also the contact of the PLCC socket is still not the best. At first attempt my image on the screen had some red pixel noise (can be seen on one of the pictures) which somehow disappeared after I pushed the board a bit more to RAMDAC.

I have compiled your code also with some necessary modifications because of the difference of Spartan 3 (or the lack of my fpga development knowledge) and tested it. Now the background is perfect, but I still have issues with the singal traces: these move slow, have "ghost image", change color and also disappear sometimes from the screen.

Great work and progress Lazlo,

As for the strange persistence or signal issues which you mentioned in this post and previous one. Please check but I think you are using InstaVu or later DPO mode so undo this mode which might solve the issue.

Albert
 

Offline ltarjanyi75

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Re: Tektronix TDS744 CRT to LCD color converter FPGA module DIY
« Reply #73 on: December 30, 2023, 12:56:20 pm »
Yes, the InstaVu was turned on, which also can be seen on my pictures. I must have been tired when I tried it yesterday...
Now the traces are ok, no slowness or ghost image.
 
The only remaining issue I have, that changing the display setting does not always work correctly: waveform colors are changing even if for example I select the same display color scheme multiple times + sometimes the waveforms totally disappear (which appear again after I change a few times the display settings again). Maybe the waveform disappear is also the result of color change.

Terry, does your display setting change work correctly?
 
 

Offline TerrySt

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Re: Tektronix TDS744 CRT to LCD color converter FPGA module DIY
« Reply #74 on: December 30, 2023, 02:24:00 pm »
I had that problem a lot when I was having noise issues on my first revision of the board.  I also had it some when using Vincent's VHDL code.  But with my new board and my new VHDL code, it is 100% stable.
It sounds like there is noise or ringing on the /WR signal or possible the data (D0-D7)  or Register Select (RS0-RS2) signals.  The register selects are latched in on the falling edge of /WR.  Then the data is latched in on the rising edge of /WR.  The /WR signal is only active when a color change is sent from the o'scope.   The 25MHz read clock is not used during the color changes.  Take a look at all of the signals and see if they look noisy or have bad ringing on the edges.  You may find that just putting the o'scope probe on one of the signals improves the situation. 
Look to see that the RS signals are stable when the /WR goes low, and that the Data signals are stable when the /WR goes back high.

Terry
 


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