Author Topic: SMT probes comparison - Probe Master 8151 Vs Pomona 6341/ TL910 inc X-Ray images  (Read 18196 times)

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Online FraserTopic starter

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I purchased a set of Probe Master 8151 multimeter probes for SMT work on high component density PCB's populated with the likes of 0402 components.

Commentary on that purchase decision may be found here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/very-nice-smt-multimeter-probes-from-probe-master/msg1015221/#msg1015221

The Probe Master SMT probes have interchangeable sprung and non-sprung tips to suit the users needs in any situation. The tips are available as spare parts and are easy to replace.

Pomona/Fluke also offer a probe set, under the ID 6341 / TL910, that has interchangeable SMT probe tips similar to the Probe Master, but with much smaller handles.

I received a set of the Pomona 6341 probes today and decided to provide a photographic and X-Ray image comparison for this forum. The Probe Master is a far more robust looking and feeling design that should last many years in the lab. The Pomona offering, whilst likely well made, looks a little flimsy and fragile for my liking. Pomona have opted for slim handles on the probes and very thin connecting cables. I suspect that, treated with care, the Pomona probes will also last a long time, but they do look like a good tug on the cables could cause damage.

My X-Ry images reveal the internal construction of the probes. Again, the Probe master probes appear of a more robust design that is more complex than the Pomona construction technique.

I will be using both sets of probes in the lab as sometimes you want very slim and compact probes and for such scenarios the Pomona probes will be ideal.

The probe leads are approximately the same length. I opted for the retractable sleeved straight 4mm plugs on the Probe Master probes and the Pomona probes come as standard with the right angle sleeved 4mm plugs.

Take a look at the pictures and X-Ray images and decide for yourself which suits your needs better. I am lucky to now have both   ;D

Fraser
« Last Edit: September 02, 2016, 07:14:19 pm by Fraser »
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Online FraserTopic starter

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More Pictures......
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Online FraserTopic starter

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More pictures....
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Online FraserTopic starter

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Probe lead lengths
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Online FraserTopic starter

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X-Ray images begin here........

Probe Master Probes
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Online FraserTopic starter

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Pomona Probes
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Online FraserTopic starter

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Probe Master Vs Pomona images
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Online FraserTopic starter

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I was also fortunate enough to be given a pile of unwanted empty Pomona probe kit 'tool rolls' some time ago. Such are perfect for protecting my SMT probes in transit or when not in use  :) I am not sure whether Pomona sell these as an accessory. I have used several for other types of probe such as HP LogicDart leads and grabbers. Darned useful I must say.

Fraser
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Offline nanofrog

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Nice work Fraser:-+

To me, the Achilles heel of the Pomona/Fluke set is the strain relief (don't recall they actually have one).

As per the accessory rolls, it's available; Pomona 5955 (didn't find them on CPC or Farnell).

Probemaster offers some stuff as well, such as a tri-fold pouch and a few hard plastic boxes w/ foam lining (Probemaster Storage Products).
 

Online FraserTopic starter

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Thanks nanofrog.

I was given approx 20 of the probe tool rolls as the end user repackaged the original comprehensive pride kit contents in a Pelicase along with the test equipment. At the time I did not have much use for them but over the years they have been perfect for keeping specialist cables and connectors tidy.

I am pleased that you found this thread of interest. Sometimes I generate a thread and wonder if it is just me that is interested in the content :)

Fraser
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Offline nanofrog

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Thanks nanofrog.

I was given approx 20 of the probe tool rolls as the end user repackaged the original comprehensive pride kit contents in a Pelicase along with the test equipment. At the time I did not have much use for them but over the years they have been perfect for keeping specialist cables and connectors tidy.

I am pleased that you found this thread of interest. Sometimes I generate a thread and wonder if it is just me that is interested in the content :)

Fraser
You're welcome.  :)

I'm sure it was a fair bit of work, and given hobbyist budgets, I find information like this very valuable as not to waste funds on crap. Expensive or otherwise, and regardless of brand or COO.

You got lucky on all of those pouches.  ;D

I'm using 3 ring binder pencil pouches w/ a clear window for my probes. And the ability to use colors to help ID what I'm after is great, such as matching the color of the scope channel and pouch.  >:D Cheap too at ~$1.00 each locally, and they can hang off of pegboard or be tossed in a big binder to try and keep things a bit more tidy.

 

Online FraserTopic starter

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Those look excellent :)
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Offline bitseeker

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I am pleased that you found this thread of interest. Sometimes I generate a thread and wonder if it is just me that is interested in the content :)

Probably just a case of folks being intrigued, but not having anything to add to the conversation.

I have some of the ProbeMaster 8000 probes for my DMMs and like them a lot. The retractable banana plugs are really convenient when you have equipment with different jacks. The tips are really sharp too, as my fingers will attest to from a couple of accidental stabbings.

So, what makes these specifically for SMT use? Longer/narrower tips?
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Online FraserTopic starter

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SMT multiimeter probes often need to be very small diameter towards the tip and have a very fine pint on them. This is to permit access to the end of a SMT component without shorting across to an adjacent component. When recently working on a closely packed SMT PCB, my standard Fluke probe tips were huge in comparison to the 0402 parts I was probing. Also, when probing closely spaced IC pins you want the probe to definitely contact the required pin, and no others. You also want it to stay put on the pin. A slip causing a short to another pin can be fatal to the IC in some cases.

SMT probes are fragile beasts as well. The need for a thin needle sharp tip makes them vulnerable to drop damage or just heavy handed use. The ability to change the tip easily is therefore important. It also provides the ability to choose different tip shapes for different scenarios. My probes came with a selection of tip profiles, including multi point types that cut into solder and hold fast.

Any needle pointed probe may be used for SMD work. I have used 'back probes' that are common in the automotive diagnostics industry. However the probes I have detailed in this thread are designed for the task and for excellent performance, with built in maintainability.

Fraser
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Online eKretz

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Very nice! That's some very informative imaging, thanks! I have the Pomona set, but I'm not super happy with their construction/feel. They also read fairly high resistance compared to what I expected unless they are kept under moderate pressure with the DUT connections. They look considerably more flimsy in your XRay shots than the Probemasters internally. Thanks for sharing!
 

Offline bitseeker

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Thanks, Fraser. I haven't done a lot of probing of SMT that small. Good to know!
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Offline CustomEngineerer

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I had also ordered the 8151 set last week. I finally had a chance to open them up to play around with them tonight and noticed something that doesn't quite look right on the red probe (see pics). The plastic down close to the tip looks like someone tried to cut it open. After seeing the x-ray pics above (thanks by the way for posting those...very cool), I was thinking maybe the plastic would screw off and so wasn't supposed to be fully connected. But when I try to twist it it doesn't seem to want to budge. Having seen all the pics in this thread as well as the other 2 threads, plus the fact that the black probe is solid all the way around, now makes me think maybe someone else already had these probes and damaged the red probe and so decided to return them.

Curious if anyone else noticed similar on their probes. Its probably not a big deal, I have actually tried using the probes and don't notice any problems in use. I went ahead and sent an email to probemaster a little while ago, but don't expect to hear anything until next week.
 

Offline Tom45

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I'll add my thanks for the detailed info on these probes.

You motivated me to get a couple of sets of the 8151. Can you comment on your choice of straight vs. right angle banana plug?

Tom
 

Offline CustomEngineerer

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I got the 8151 set. These have the straight plug with retractable shroud, so they can plug into either socket type (shrouded or un-shrouded). The right angle plugs (8150) also have the shroud, but on these the shroud can not be retracted, so they can only plug into the types of sockets that require the shroud.
 

Online FraserTopic starter

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Customengineer,

That Red probe sleeve anomally is a production fault. You are right to return the probe set.

Fraser
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Online voltsandjolts

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Thanks Fraser, nice comparison  :-+

Personally, I prefer the Pomona (also rebranded as Fluke) probes just because of the small size but that comes with a caveat: they have a big production quality issue. Many of them seem to have poor connection somewhere in the handle, I have had several sets that were bad. Try shorting yours out and wiggle them a little, any issues? 10 to 100ohm variation!?

I soldered bypass wires on a set of mine, just for very low voltage work ofcourse:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/finest-possible-multimeter-test-leads/msg720753/#msg720753
[Edit: I first tried soldering the removable tip in place but that didn't help]

...and its not just me who complains of this:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-tl-910-test-leads-poor-quality/
« Last Edit: September 03, 2016, 09:33:22 am by voltsandjolts »
 

Online FraserTopic starter

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@voltsandjolts,

Thanks for the information. I will check mine today. I can report that both my Pomona probes had slightly bent handles when received. Transit or storage damage maybe. I straightened them easily though. Certainly quite fragile for the cost of them.

Fraser
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Online FraserTopic starter

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I have just reviewed a completely different sort of probe here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/metrix-stix-fused-test-probe-nice-quality-nos-ex-mod-stock-inc-x-ray-images/msg1018032/#msg1018032


New old Military Stock and only £5 per kit !

It is a fused probe of very nice quality. I X-Ray imaged it as well.

Fraser
« Last Edit: September 03, 2016, 11:03:33 am by Fraser »
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Offline zapta

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Got myself recently a 8000 series DMM lead kit and I must say I am not impressed.

1. The mini grabbers are very hard to thread on the probe. This is also problem that is mentioned on their web site in a review from 2015.

2. The mini grabbers are sticky. When I push them in they often stuck there. Sometimes for a fraction of a second, sometimes indefinitely.

3. I ordered the 8043S end style which is the recommended one for Fluke's DMMs. The metal contact of that plug is ~5mm longer than Fluke (TL71) or Pomona test leads (21mm vs 16mm). This causes it not get inserted all the way and it protrudes above the surface of my Fluke 107 (no such problem with Fluke or Pomona probes).

4. The probes are too short compared to other vendors and don't clear my hands. I am referring to the portion of the probe that you hold in your end, from the resting point of the fingers to the top end of the probe (82mm for the Probemaster vs 102mm for the Fluke TL71).

Considering the reviews here and the fact that this is a small American company that specializes in probes I expected more.

The good points are that they are very responsive (will send me working mini grabbers) and I like the general design of accessories that thread directly over the probe point.

« Last Edit: September 03, 2016, 03:34:41 pm by zapta »
 

Offline nanofrog

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SMT probes are fragile beasts as well. The need for a thin needle sharp tip makes them vulnerable to drop damage or just heavy handed use. The ability to change the tip easily is therefore important.
The spring action helps with this, but I've been very careful not to apply side pressure to keep from bending the tips. And so far, so good.  :-+ Actually, they actually feel robust for what they are, but I'm not going to push my luck.  :P

Having seen all the pics in this thread as well as the other 2 threads, plus the fact that the black probe is solid all the way around, now makes me think maybe someone else already had these probes and damaged the red probe and so decided to return them.
It appears as if it's from an employee manually trimming off excess flashing before assembling them. As that's a defect, you'd definitely be right to ask for a replacement set (should have been caught during the final QC inspection).

Can you comment on your choice of straight vs. right angle banana plug?
Personally, I prefer the retractable banana (straight) as they're universal.  :-+

Their one caveat would be they're a bit more prone to damage if you drop the meter with them plugged in (i.e. hit the plugs first & bend if the impact is hard enough). I've not experienced this, but it is something you'd want to be cautious of IMHO.

Got myself recently a 8000 series DMM lead kit and I must say I am not impressed.

1. The mini grabbers are very hard to thread on the probe. This is also problem that is mentioned on their web site in a review from 2015.

2. The mini grabbers are sticky. When I push them in they often stuck there. Sometimes for a fraction of a second, sometimes indefinitely.

3. I ordered the 8043S end style which is the recommended one for Fluke's DMMs. The metal contact of that plug is ~5mm longer than Fluke (TL71) or Pomona test leads (21mm vs 16mm). This causes it not get inserted all the way and it protrudes above the surface of my Fluke 107 (no such problem with Fluke or Pomona probes).

4. The probes are too short compared to other vendors and don't clear my hands. I am referring to the portion of the probe that you hold in your end, from the resting point of the fingers to the top end of the probe (82mm for the Probemaster vs 102mm for the Fluke TL71).

Considering the reviews here and the fact that this is a small American company that specializes in probes I expected more.

The good points are that they are very responsive (will send me working mini grabbers) and I like the general design of accessories that thread directly over the probe point.
Sorry to hear that.  :(

I'd recommend sending that set back, and replace it with a 9000 series set (I've not had the accessory issues you describe, ever).
  • You'll like the probe handles better as they're like traditional probes; hard plastic. They're 90mm from the finger stop to the start of the strain relief on the lead, and they fit my hands well (I'm tall & have hands to match). FWIW, the probe length consists of probe accessory + connector.
  • You never have to screw accessories on; truly plug-n-play.
  • Never have to deal with the probe body pulling your connections loose.
  • More extensive kits available, which are a better value.
I'd also advise getting them with the retractable banana's. I find them far better for bench use, including handheld DMM's as you don't peg the strain relief to it's limits as much, reducing wear.

One thing about the 8000 series probe bodies though; although they do take a little bit to get used to, they work well once you do. For disclosure, I thought they were too small and felt weird too at first, but changed my mind after giving them a few days (a good 15 - 20hrs).

Now I find them very effective on the Spring Loaded Probes, as they make it easier to get to your test points on densely packed PCB's.
 


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