Siglent's new product- SDS2000X Series

[cidcorp]

Well in case anyone doesn't know, they announced another line following the 1000X series, SDS2000X series.  Seems when ever I pick up a Scope, the manuafacturer
releases the updated version for around the same price I paid for the older model.  Just my luck 

https://youtu.be/encIyO1ohS0

Brief specs that are worth noting:

Record Lengths up to 140Mpts
Digital Trigger
Waveform capture rate up to 500,000wfm/s (sequence mode) and 140,000wfm/s (normal)
25Mhz Function/Arb Generator (not sure if this is option or standard)
16 channel MSO Digital channels (rather than the 8 on SDS2000)

Looks like just an updated version of the SDS2000, question is does the this model now replace the SDS2000? Or are they
two separate lines like Rigol's Z series?

Also will Dave do a review in the future of what the differences are, cause I'm a little baffled...

Chinese manufacturers have this tendency to constantly release new hardware without ironing out the firmware/software issues
with the previously released gear.  One thing *at the very least* Siglent is doing right is keeping the firmware common across
all devices.  So fixes/changes, blanket across their line of similar products. 

Chris

[tautech]

Chris, we'll all know more next week....... 

Some dealers may already have their demo units but at this time I'm holding back....I don't need 2x 300MHz 4 channel demos, it's a lot of coin tied up. 

I can tell you this though, it is essentially only a HW revision of the existing SDS2000 series, the visible differences being front panel layout tweaks to address the Trigger level and Multipurpose knobs close proximity to each other.
This knob placement was much critisied when the 2000 series was first released although minor changes of how one placed their hand overcame the this issue.

It will be using a variant of the new V2 FW and have the same range of options as the existing 2000 series.

More will be revealed soon. 

[rf-loop]

Well in case anyone doesn't know, they announced another line following the 1000X series, SDS2000X series.  Seems when ever I pick up a Scope, the manuafacturer
releases the updated version for around the same price I paid for the older model.  Just my luck 



Brief specs that are worth noting:

Record Lengths up to 140Mpts
Digital Trigger
Waveform capture rate up to 500,000wfm/s (sequence mode) and 140,000wfm/s (normal)
25Mhz Function/Arb Generator (not sure if this is option or standard)
16 channel MSO Digital channels (rather than the 8 on SDS2000)

Looks like just an updated version of the SDS2000, question is does the this model now replace the SDS2000? Or are they
two separate lines like Rigol's Z series?

Also will Dave do a review in the future of what the differences are, cause I'm a little baffled...

Chinese manufacturers have this tendency to constantly release new hardware without ironing out the firmware/software issues
with the previously released gear.  One thing *at the very least* Siglent is doing right is keeping the firmware common across
all devices.  So fixes/changes, blanket across their line of similar products. 

Chris

Sidenote: Not only chinese manufacturers... Have you seen how many sub versions some old Tektronix oscilloscope have, frequently changed something in HW.  Also car manufacturers in Germany...and very specially in Japan,  buy today and you do not know if motor or chassis have lot of "hidden" changes after last week models. And more fun, depending also what factory have assembled it... Frequently something changes and you meet this problem after you need buy some spare parts.



Public information release date is 30th Nov. It is not today. Today is 28th afaik.  It is also clearly stated By Siglent who also have asked that who ever have preliminary informatiion from Siglent do not publish information before official launch date what is not today.
(also there is possible unexpected short delay with some models availability)

also SDS2000 without X have also same (starting from FW 2.0): Waveform capture rate up to 500,000wfm/s (sequence mode) and 140,000wfm/s (normal and including history recording).

[nctnico]

So the only major difference is the layout of the front panel and 16 digital inputs. IMHO the layout of the SDS2000 wasn't bad but maybe Siglent wants to make their new oscilloscopes look more similar.

[pascal_sweden]

In what way is the "digital trigger" in the Siglent scopes different from other DSOs?

On their website they indicate that most DSOs still use an "analog trigger". Is this true?

What about Rigol DS1000Z and DS2000A series? Do they still use an "analog trigger" or do they use a "digital trigger" as well?

Are there big differences between the Siglent "digital trigger" system and the Rigol "digital trigger" system?
Is the Siglent trigger system more advanced than the Rigol trigger system?

[nctnico]

In what way is the "digital trigger" in the Siglent scopes different from other DSOs?

All triggering is digital because it basically is a comparator and a trigger level. What Siglent did is somehow remove the need to have a bit if hysteresis in the trigger circuitry. The SDS2000 I had triggered on small signals unlike any other oscilloscope I have seen so far. But don't get too exited: it is very rare to need such a sensitive trigger. It is a bit like the waveforms/second number. Looks nice but the practical application is very limited. I'd actually rather have a scope with more memory than waveforms/second.

[pascal_sweden]

It would be interesting to know more technical details about the Siglent digital trigger circuitry.

A picture of a traditional digital trigger circuit (Rigol) versus a picture of an improved digital trigger circuit (Siglent).

[tautech]

In what way is the "digital trigger" in the Siglent scopes different from other DSOs?

All triggering is digital because it basically is a comparator and a trigger level. What Siglent did is somehow remove the need to have a bit if hysteresis in the trigger circuitry. The SDS2000 I had triggered on small signals unlike any other oscilloscope I have seen so far. But don't get too exited: it is very rare to need such a sensitive trigger. It is a bit like the waveforms/second number. Looks nice but the practical application is very limited. I'd actually rather have a scope with more memory than waveforms/second.

Watch the Vid above again, both are increased.

[nctnico]

According to rf-loop the SDS2000 (without X) has the same waveform update rate but let's not get too exited about waveforms/second. Also the long memory is only useful if the protocol decoding decodes all instead of only what is on screen. Recently I had to hunt down an intermittent I2C problem and the SDS2000 with the V1 firmware would have been absolutely useless.

[0xdeadbeef]

It would be interesting to know more technical details about the Siglent digital trigger circuitry.
A picture of a traditional digital trigger circuit (Rigol) versus a picture of an improved digital trigger circuit (Siglent).

I fear that a digital trigger could also mean that it's always completely done in the FPGA which could introduce latency/jitter.
So a digital trigger is not necessarily always a good thing.

[tautech]

It would be interesting to know more technical details about the Siglent digital trigger circuitry.
A picture of a traditional digital trigger circuit (Rigol) versus a picture of an improved digital trigger circuit (Siglent).

I fear that a digital trigger could also mean that it's always completely done in the FPGA which could introduce latency/jitter.
So a digital trigger is not necessarily always a good thing.

It will be interesting if some soon to be posted tests on the 2000X show it has been much better implemented than in the most popular DSO's on this forum. 

[nctnico]

I think I already posted some numbers on the minimal signal level for triggering. IIRC a 'regular' scope stops triggering on a clean sine wave around 6mV where the SDS2000 could get a stable trigger on a signal less than 1mV. This looks very cool but it could very easely backfire (not work at all) when trying to trigger on a noisy signal!. Remember Siglent is relatively new in the oscilloscope business and there is probably a very good reason why other manufacturers with more than half a century experience with building oscilloscopes have choosen to use a higher trigger hysteresis.

[tautech]

I think I already posted some numbers on the minimal signal level for triggering. IIRC a 'regular' scope stops triggering on a clean sine wave around 6mV where the SDS2000 could get a stable trigger on a signal less than 1mV. This looks very cool but it could very easely backfire (not work at all) when trying to trigger on a noisy signal!. Remember Siglent is relatively new in the oscilloscope business and there is probably a very good reason why other manufacturers with more than half a century experience with building oscilloscopes have choosen to use a higher trigger hysteresis.

With the new additional input 1mV range the X series has a stated Triiger sensitivity of ±0.2div which indicates it will be much better than the existing 2000 series stated 0.5 div.
Remembering of course also the existing 2000 series with V1 FW, the min V/div range was 2 mV.

[tautech]

Looking back at an early 2013 SDS2000 datasheet: Hardware based Digital Trigger system.

I don't see any difference between what was stated then and now. 

[Hydrawerk]

Nice specifications, but what SW bugs can we expect??

[tautech]

Nice specifications, but what SW bugs can we expect??

As it will run a variant of the new V2 FW, very few we expect.

Wuerstchenhund reckons he's found 2 in the V2 FW in the existing 2000 series this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000-new-v2-firmware/

One being a very small trace zero offset and the other I'm unable to reproduce.

[cidcorp]

Public information release date is 30th Nov. It is not today. Today is 28th afaik.  It is also clearly stated By Siglent who also have asked that who ever have preliminary information from Siglent do not publish information before official launch date what is not today.
(also there is possible unexpected short delay with some models availability)

Wow if this is the case they shouldn't have mentioned it on twitter, and directed people to go view the YouTube video 
Sorry if I steps on toes, I have no internal connection / contacts with Siglent, so the info was just what I heard publicly *directly*
from Siglent.

Chris

[cidcorp]

As it will run a variant of the new V2 FW, very few we expect.

Wuerstchenhund reckons he's found 2 in the V2 FW in the existing 2000 series this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000-new-v2-firmware/

One being a very small trace zero offset and the other I'm unable to reproduce.

Sorry for the double post, I was able to reproduce this small offset, but only after the initial v2 firmware update and the Self-Cal (as instructed).  Because the unit was only operating
for roughly 20 minutes I decided to leave it running for an hour and did the Self-Cal again - offset disappeared so it looks like in my case it wasn't up to operating temperature and
all has been well since then.

[tautech]

Public information release date is 30th Nov. It is not today. Today is 28th afaik.  It is also clearly stated By Siglent who also have asked that who ever have preliminary information from Siglent do not publish information before official launch date what is not today.
(also there is possible unexpected short delay with some models availability)

Wow if this is the case they shouldn't have mentioned it on twitter, and directed people to go view the YouTube video 
Sorry if I steps on toes, I have no internal connection / contacts with Siglent, so the info was just what I heard publicly *directly*
from Siglent.

Chris

Don't stress Chris, for those that have taken the time to look the 2000X has been seen on the China website for some weeks, not obvious but you can find it with Google.

As it will run a variant of the new V2 FW, very few we expect.

Wuerstchenhund reckons he's found 2 in the V2 FW in the existing 2000 series this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000-new-v2-firmware/

One being a very small trace zero offset and the other I'm unable to reproduce.

Sorry for the double post, I was able to reproduce this small offset, but only after the initial v2 firmware update and the Self-Cal (as instructed).  Because the unit was only operating
for roughly 20 minutes I decided to leave it running for an hour and did the Self-Cal again - offset disappeared so it looks like in my case it wasn't up to operating temperature and
all has been well since then.

Good to know, thanks, I'll repeat the Self cal after a longer warm up any post results in the V2 FW thread.
The waveform I posted showing the 60uV offset was after ~30 minutes.

[rf-loop]

Public information release date is 30th Nov. It is not today. Today is 28th afaik.  It is also clearly stated By Siglent who also have asked that who ever have preliminary information from Siglent do not publish information before official launch date what is not today.
(also there is possible unexpected short delay with some models availability)

Wow if this is the case they shouldn't have mentioned it on twitter, and directed people to go view the YouTube video 
Sorry if I steps on toes, I have no internal connection / contacts with Siglent, so the info was just what I heard publicly *directly*
from Siglent.

Chris

Don't stress Chris, for those that have taken the time to look the 2000X has been seen on the China website for some weeks, not obvious but you can find it with Google.

Yes, do not stress. It is not our problem, it is Siglent problem.

More I wonder why Siglent send letters to distributors to not add information to internet sides about SDS2000X before official launch date. Why we need reject information? Perhaps in Siglent organisation left hand do not know what right hand do or all are just randomly mixed. If they do not have Company internal rules and publication policy how they can expect other peoples respect "rules" they set,  and then they themselves show that these "rules" are nonsense.

Edit: repaired quoting

[seabell]

Chinese manufacturers have this tendency to constantly release new hardware without ironing out the firmware/software issues
with the previously released gear.  One thing *at the very least* Siglent is doing right is keeping the firmware common across
all devices.  So fixes/changes, blanket across their line of similar products.

I certainly concur with the first sentence above. Been bitten hard by Sigrunt already.
You must be either very brave/lucky or aware of and comfortable with the fact that the true cost of this equipment could be FAR more than the initial purchase price.
Best strategy - if you really want to take the chance on this 'cat in a bag' - is to wait at least a year. By then they might have got it semi-reliable.

[tautech]

All the details of the new SDS2000X series are now on Siglent websites.

Datasheet:

http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Documents/DataSheet/SDS2000X_DataSheet_(4-CH).pdf

[coppice]

Sidenote: Not only chinese manufacturers... Have you seen how many sub versions some old Tektronix oscilloscope have, frequently changed something in HW.  Also car manufacturers in Germany...and very specially in Japan,  buy today and you do not know if motor or chassis have lot of "hidden" changes after last week models. And more fun, depending also what factory have assembled it... Frequently something changes and you meet this problem after you need buy some spare parts.

This is extensively covered in books about product design management. If you change models too often people keep waiting for the next one, and never buy anything. If you change models too seldom the competition passes you. Several strategies have been used to try to optimise the balance of product introduction rates. In the 90s many Sony products changed every 6 weeks, but the model names only changed every few months. If you went into a shop to look at, say, a camcorder, and went back to look at the same thing 2 months later you would have found a few new bells and whistles on the second viewing which were not there on the first.

[tautech]

Wonder how Dave's visit from Siglent management went today? 

[nctnico]

Wonder how Dave's visit from Siglent management went today? 

I think Dave handed out some books called 'programming for dummies'.