Siglent's new product- MSO/SDS2000 Series

[tautech]

I agree that this is a significant oversight, and only possible because it hasn't been tested in real-world use before.  I second your appeal.  I'm sure that will be an immediate complaint from many, as real users get their hands on them.  Luckily, it's a problem that can be easily corrected in software.

Multi-function/Universal Knob.
This issue has been bought to Siglent's attention some months ago, and while it is a little better now than the first firmware version, it needs to be improved much more.
It is also used for scrolling through alpha numeric symbols, were it is annoying, but works.
As rf-loop has pointed out it can be quite frustrating for prolonged use, but it is workable as it is.

I have little doubt it can be improved vastly, after all it is only software and the will to fix it.
We are awaiting more forecast firmware, where I hope it will be properly addressed.

[rf-loop]

Will there ever be a good Siglent promo like this?? http://info.tek.com/www_mdo3000oscilloscope-oneisthenewsix.html
That SDS2000 might be a good scope but I as a customer have no chance to get wind of that.

All can get. Question is - who pay it.

[rf-loop]

1ns/div - 50ns/div thre can be max 80000 segments (1 segment lenght is depending time/div setting and is same as display horizontally (one displayed waveform) using same amount of sample points (example 50ns/div 1GSa/s in use (2 channel) 700 points)

So segmented acquisitions capture into a larger Memory buffer, of >100 MB.  (80,000 x 700 x 2 ~107M.)

Here 50ns/div, 4 channel in use. (700pts/channel)
80000 segments.
Display dots, Sin(x)/x off.

4 x 700 x 80000 = 224Mpts. (one datapoint is 8 bit wide)


Here two images, from same 80000 segments capture. (display setting = dots in capture. I have turned lines on only later in analyze for better visibility so it do not affect speed)

4 channels on, speed was  ~332500 segments/s for each channel parallel With these signals and settings. (segment timestams in images)

If look Agilent InfiniiVision 4000 X-Series Performance Characteristics (yes do not compare apples and oranges but this give some imagination about speed)
Segmented:

Segmented memory optimizes available memory for data streams that have long
dead times between activity. Maximum segments = 1000. Re-arm time = 1 us
(minimum time between trigger events).

[Mark_O]

Here 50ns/div, 4 channel in use. (700pts/channel)
80000 segments.
Display dots, Sin(x)/x off.

4 x 700 x 80000 = 224Mpts. (one datapoint is 8 bit wide)

That's quite impressive, and I could certainly make good use of that capacity.  That's something well beyond the capability of say, an Agilent MSOX3000.

If I'm understanding your previous table, rf-loop:

Code: [Select]

1-50ns/div max 80000 segments each
100ns  max 63157 segments
200ns 36585
500ns 16042
1us 8108
2us 4067
5us 1630
10us 815
and so on.
at 100ns it goes from 700 to 1400 samples?  That would imply: 4 x 1400 x 63157  (>337 MB).

If look Agilent InfiniiVision 4000 X-Series Performance Characteristics (yes do not compare apples and oranges but this give some imagination about speed)
Segmented:

Segmented memory optimizes available memory for data streams that have long
dead times between activity. Maximum segments = 1000. Re-arm time = 1 us
(minimum time between trigger events).

One thing I like about the new SDS2000 series is that it appears to manage to combine a) exceptional capture depth, with b) very low re-arm times (~2.5us), approaching those of much more expensive, and yet highly memory-constrained architectures from other vendors.  On the MSOX3000, for example, segmented memory doesn't come standard, but is an extra cost option.  And even then is limited to only 1,000 segments.

It looks like the new Siglents are not only a big leap beyond the technology in their previous DSOs, but also represent some significant advances beyond what their major competitors have to offer, in a number of important areas.  And of course, offering 4-channel, high-performance scopes (i.e., 1GSa/s on all 4 channels) at a price none of them can match.   

[rf-loop]

Here 50ns/div, 4 channel in use. (700pts/channel)
80000 segments.
Display dots, Sin(x)/x off.

4 x 700 x 80000 = 224Mpts. (one datapoint is 8 bit wide)

That's quite impressive, and I could certainly make good use of that capacity.  That's something well beyond the capability of say, an Agilent MSOX3000.

If I'm understanding your previous table, rf-loop:

Code: [Select]

1-50ns/div max 80000 segments each
100ns  max 63157 segments
200ns 36585
500ns 16042
1us 8108
2us 4067
5us 1630
10us 815
and so on.
at 100ns it goes from 700 to 1400 samples?  That would imply: 4 x 1400 x 63157  (>337 MB).

I can confirm only 50ns/div 4x700x80000
This I have really tested using 4 channels.
Others, like 100ns/div 63157, I have only looked from menu when I change horizontal time/div.
I only believe these limits on the menu are true. Only 80000 is not believe, it is proofed by test. It was reason why I did not write this over 300Mpoints value.

I need note that this oscilloscope is not yet fully ready what related to  FW.
It looks like many functions are still  "simplified" versions (I hope they are not final versions).
Acquire memory size selection, FFT, Pass/fail, Segmented memory acquire, cursors and some others.
Also I can not find repetitive sampling mode (ET) at all.

About memory size selection my opinions is quite wide and this time it is not yet ready to tell.

(Or perhaps I need only wait more mature FW. This is coming of course but what is quality level they have designed to reach - this I do not know - but I can hope much more useability and functionality with more finished details)

[Mark_O]

I can confirm only 50ns/div 4x700x80000
This I have really tested using 4 channels.
Others, like 100ns/div 63157, I have only looked from menu when I change horizontal time/div.
I only believe these limits on the menu are true. Only 80000 is not believe, it is proofed by test. It was reason why I did not write this over 300Mpoints value.

I need note that this oscilloscope is not yet fully ready what related to  FW.
It looks like many functions are still  "simplified" versions (I hope they are not final versions).
Acquire memory size selection, FFT, Pass/fail, Segmented memory acquire, cursors and some others.
Also I can not find repetitive sampling mode (ET) at all.

About memory size selection my opinions is quite wide and this time it is not yet ready to tell.

(Or perhaps I need only wait more mature FW. This is coming of course but what is quality level they have designed to reach - this I do not know - but I can hope much more useability and functionality with more finished details)

Thanks, rf-loop.  I appreciate your reports, because they provide a look into the unit you have there, and we don't have to speculate.  I also respect that you stick to the facts, and share the bad (unfinished FW implementation), along with the good (impressive performance capabilities).

It's sounding like this will some day be an exceptional option, that will appeal to many.  But I'm not sure if someone buying one now would be all that pleased about it's current functionality, or how much longer it may take to complete it.  It seems like they simply announced it way too early in the development cycle.  Perhaps because this is an especially ambitious new product for them.

[rf-loop]

"Acquire memory size selection, FFT, Pass/fail, Segmented memory acquire, cursors and some others."

All these works and can use.

What I mean I hope they develop these better in next some FW.
Just as also make "universal knob" more clever or add some menu buttons so that it adds useability.

I trust they work hard for future FW updates.

In december 2013 when I get it, it was really "demo" version. In this time I did not even try sell any, before it is more ready. But still in that time it can use for introduce it to some potential customer so that it is later available.
Also meaning for "demo" unit was of course for study and learn so that in future can give better customer care before and after sales. I have dismantled it also for learning things for possible warranty time repair work etc. I need know what I'm selling. (Because I'm not seller who sell "nice boxes" or "dropshipper" seller. I'm hobbyist (and professional) who is also interesting these equipments. I can not sell at all things what I do not know enough.

 Today SDS2000 is so much more ready that it can seriously start sell specially if buyer trust there is coming FW updates what "repair" some odds and add or finish some sub level functions.
(I talk now about Software version: 1.1.1.26.5  with FPGA versions: 13.12.16-13.12.16-14.3.10 and HW version 3-3)

This time I want sell these only to people who have been personally first testing and looking this demo equipment together with me so that also I can see he/she understand what is buying and some amount how to use it for avoid situation where user do not understand how it works and then believe it works wrong. This is specially nessessary if buyer do not have enough knowledge and experience with this kind of equipments in practice. I have seen so many times here and there lot of ranting and just because do not even first learn - and understand - how to use equipment.

As we can see time ago many manufacturer launched equipments "too early"
Sad, but it looks like it is common and growing trend in all electronics.

[rf-loop]

Here attached new waveform update rate table.

Note settings. (measurements, statistics, and cursors on)
FW version is 1.1.1.26.5

If someone want measure this, I can tell that it need be really careful know how to measure trig out frequency! Specially with some settings most of cheap counters are in big troubles and leads to wrong result.

This table is totally obsolete!
There is many changes in wfm/s rates.

[nctnico]

I'm wondering: has this oscilloscope  'roll mode' with peak-detect enabled?

[Hydrawerk]

If someone want measure this, I can tell that it need be really careful know how to measure trig out frequency! Specially with some settings most of cheap counters are in big troubles and leads to wrong result.

Really? What is the output signal like? What problems can appear?

[proton123]

Hello everyone,

I am regarding SDS2000 digital channels. Does Siglent supply probes or any hardware to use them? Is it necessary to buy additional option to enable them or they work in standard version? Unfortunately neither datasheet nor manual describe it clearly. Would you please clear this?

Best regards.

[rf-loop]

Hello everyone,

I am regarding SDS2000 digital channels. Does Siglent supply probes or any hardware to use them? Is it necessary to buy additional option to enable them or they work in standard version? Unfortunately neither datasheet nor manual describe it clearly. Would you please clear this?

Best regards.

AFAIK it is not yet ready. 
Of course Sigglent supply all what need for it (pod/probes and software things in FW)  after is is ready.  Even  SDS model what have physical MSO connector on the front panel,  option for use it is not yet ready. Pod/probes set and FW option is coming later (afaik in this summer).
This option, as also other options, need buy. Some options need only buy activation. Some options, as example MSO need both, HW (least probe set) and activation.
 

[tautech]

Hello everyone,

I am regarding SDS2000 digital channels. Does Siglent supply probes or any hardware to use them? Is it necessary to buy additional option to enable them or they work in standard version? Unfortunately neither datasheet nor manual describe it clearly. Would you please clear this?

Best regards.

AFAIK it is not yet ready. 
Of course Sigglent supply all what need for it (pod/probes and software things in FW)  after is is ready.  Even  SDS model what have physical MSO connector on the front panel,  option for use it is not yet ready. Pod/probes set and FW option is coming later (afaik in this summer).
This option, as also other options, need buy. Some options need only buy activation. Some options, as example MSO need both, HW (least probe set) and activation.

I can confirm this as I have priced MSO option last week.
Firmware not ready, but hardware is.
MSO option including 8 Ch probe set and activation US$493 Siglent RRP + taxes if any.
But Siglent refuse to ship until Firmware is ready. Fair enough IMO.

[Hydrawerk]

I can confirm this as I have priced MSO option last week.
Firmware not ready, but hardware is.
But Siglent refuse to ship until Firmware is ready.

Well, that is odd for a scope that was released in November 2013. http://www.siglent.com/en/news/detail.aspx?id=100000065214624&nodecode=119002004
And here they say nothing about it. http://www.siglent.eu/oscilloscopes/sds-2000-series/mso-sds2104-100mhz-4-channel.html
Well, Rigol is IMHO more credible.
EDITED a bit.

[nctnico]

Nahh Microsoft is doing this for years and nobody is complaining. They release the useable version years after the original crappy version.

[tautech]

Firmware not ready, but hardware is.
But Siglent refuse to ship until Firmware is ready.

Well, that is odd for a scope that was released in November 2013. http://www.siglent.com/en/news/detail.aspx?id=100000065214624&nodecode=119002004
And here they say nothing about it. http://www.siglent.eu/oscilloscopes/sds-2000-series/mso-sds2104-100mhz-4-channel.html
Well, Rigol is IMHO more credible.

Sorry hydrawerk you are quite wrong. 

Siglent gave me permission to announce Western market SDS2000 series release on 25 Feb.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent's-new-product-msosds2000-series/msg394764/#msg394764

As many are aware the MSO option is currently in the appraisal and final firmware stage.

Thread followers will be quite aware the SDS2000 is now in the final development stages and several have posted the incremental improvements made.

SDS2000 series are available now for order and any currently unavailable options can be later purchased and activated with firmware and activation code once released.

EDITED a bit

[rf-loop]

Firmware not ready, but hardware is.
But Siglent refuse to ship until Firmware is ready.

Well, that is odd for a scope that was released in November 2013. http://www.siglent.com/en/news/detail.aspx?id=100000065214624&nodecode=119002004
And here they say nothing about it. http://www.siglent.eu/oscilloscopes/sds-2000-series/mso-sds2104-100mhz-4-channel.html
Well, Rigol is IMHO more credible.

It was: SDS2000 and MSO2000.  SDS2000 I get in working condition december 2013. This time launched SDS2000 series. Not MSO2000 series!
This time only what Siglent  tell me is that MSO2000 models are coming later.
Previously (2013) I think, related to some information get from Siglent, this MSO2000 series is different product series. Later I get more accurate  information that it is coming as option for SDS2000. (to these HW versions where is some MSO components installed - my SDS2304 (Option Decoder, Option Function Generator) is not "MSO ready")

[Wuerstchenhund]

Well, that is odd for a scope that was released in November 2013.

Well, that was for the SDS variant, not the MSO. But yes, they should not put out press statements of release when the product won't be generally available for several months. I appreciate they want to fix the worst bugs before shipping but that should be done *before* releasing a product.

And here they say nothing about it. http://www.siglent.eu/oscilloscopes/sds-2000-series/mso-sds2104-100mhz-4-channel.html
Well, Rigol is IMHO more credible.

Be careful, siglent.eu is *NOT* Siglent's website:
http://www.siglent.eu/about-siglenteu-store

Siglent.eu is a trade name and part of JR Special Electronics.

JR Special Electronics is registered with the chamber of commerce in eindhoven ( the Netherlands ) with number : 52793575

SIGLENT.EU / JR Special Electronics is a Authorized Siglent Distributor

[marmad]

Sorry hydrawerk you are quite wrong.

Siglent gave me permission to announce SDS2000 series release on 25 Feb.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent's-new-product-msosds2000-series/msg394764/#msg394764

As many are aware the MSO option is currently in the appraisal and final firmware stage.

Thread followers will be quite aware the SDS2000 is now in the final development stages and several have posted the incremental improvements made.

SDS2000 series are available now for order and any currently unavailable options can be later purchased and activated with firmware and activation code once released.

Sorry, tautech, you are quite wrong.

I have nothing against Siglent teasing the launch of a new product out (even if it was done much too early), but you're either being deliberately disingenuous or incredibly naive. Read the first post of this thread, started by Hermann - who either works for Siglent (or sells them):

I notice that Siglent has released the 110,000 / sec high capture rate MSO/SDS2000 Series Super phosphor oscilloscopes.

Now MSO/SDS2000 is launched only in China, I heard that it was sold very well in China now. I think it will soon appear on the market all over the world.

How is a product without firmware launched and sold (very well)? And how do you define "soon"?

So thread followers - at least this one - are quite aware that the SDS2000 has been in the "final development stage" for over 7 months.

[rf-loop]

Sorry hydrawerk you are quite wrong.

Siglent gave me permission to announce SDS2000 series release on 25 Feb.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent's-new-product-msosds2000-series/msg394764/#msg394764

As many are aware the MSO option is currently in the appraisal and final firmware stage.

Thread followers will be quite aware the SDS2000 is now in the final development stages and several have posted the incremental improvements made.

SDS2000 series are available now for order and any currently unavailable options can be later purchased and activated with firmware and activation code once released.

Sorry, tautech, you are quite wrong.

I have nothing against Siglent teasing the launch of a new product out (even if it was done much too early), but you're either being deliberately disingenuous or incredibly naive. Read the first post of this thread, started by Hermann - who either works for Siglent (or sells them):

I notice that Siglent has released the 110,000 / sec high capture rate MSO/SDS2000 Series Super phosphor oscilloscopes.

Now MSO/SDS2000 is launched only in China, I heard that it was sold very well in China now. I think it will soon appear on the market all over the world.

How is a product without firmware launched and sold (very well)? And how do you define "soon"?

So thread followers - at least this one - are quite aware that the SDS2000 has been in the "final development stage" for over 7 months.

It works well, some bugs in FW as usual if look what ever brand today.
I really do not know how long it have biin in this level what it is now.
Personally I have been long time (months) in other extremely high priority level works. What I know there have been some FW updates time ago after this version what I get december 2013.
After quick doing some tests I put it to store. Just some days ago I get small time slices for use it and ask from Siglent latest FW for it. (I get one previous update from siglent long time ago but never tested it more that just install, start, do selfcal and look it run.
I have not any knowledge how long this version what I have now have been out from Siglent.
I have also get some information about coming new FW.

If I look this scope today, it is well in this condition that product can sell. And I do not know how long it have been in this state.

December 2013 model was not at all for sale. It was exactly and only for distributors for get touch to this scope and it was tightly SDS. Also information from Siglent in this day we get this demo version was exactly and clearly: There is not yet MSO version at all, it is coming later.

Today this oscilloscope SDS2000 is not "final development state". It is ready product and FW may have in near future some some bug fixes and other updates. If they add some features, ok it is nice.  Today it have AWG option and Decoder option ready.  Later there are coming MSO option and this is not ready and no one have advertised it can now buy with this option. In pictures there can see MSO probe connector. Yes, you can buy this "MSO ready" version today. 

Last year I buy computer with operating system. It is still not ready. Nearly every day there is minor and even fatal bugs what need upgrade nearly every day. I have not asked from Microsoft why they start selling product what is not even final development state. (just for fun)

Rigol need FW updates, this is of course normal. Siglent need FW updates but it looks like in this case it leads to this kind of ranting. Do we live in worldor least forum where is double standards.

But, I'm satisfied, this Siglent have up to over 400k waveforms in second  acquire speed in Sequence mode. And it works. Up to 80000 segments.
It have up to over 100kwfms/s speed in normal mode and with all measurements and statistics and cursors on.
It have 2GSa/s for two channels simultaneously, and 1GSa/s for all 4 channels simultaneously.
In its price class it is not bad.

Rigol DS2000 is nice scope.
Siglent SDS2000 is also nice but different scope.
Who like banana buy banana and who like jack fruit buy jack fruit.



 

[marmad]

Rigol need FW updates, this is of course normal. Siglent need FW updates but it looks like in this case it leads to this kind of ranting. Do we live in worldor least forum where is double standards.

   Funny... who is ranting? Just pointing out the obvious. As I already mentioned, anyone (who doesn't work for or sell Siglents) that has followed this thread from the start, KNOWS that Siglent has been fudging the release dates and development state of the model. Again, that's their prerogative to do so - but don't try to pretend it hasn't been done - it's apparent from the opening post.

...wfms/s speed and with all measurements and statistics and cursors on.

I've seen you mention this a few times in your posts before - but I'm not sure why. Neither the Agilent or Rigol's wfrm/s speeds are affected by these things - is there a DPO that is?

[rf-loop]

Trigger Out delay and jitter.

Tested with 1kHz to 20MHz and no visible change in delay and jitter.
Signal to CH1
Trig Out to CH2

Jitter peak to peak  is roughly 10ns.
Delay is roughly what reads in picture   minus 1.4m M17/84 (aka RG223) "delay line" (signal cable)
(136.4ns - 7ns=129.4ns)

Not perfect but also not very poor and as expected. This is data.  With this data need think if design use Trig Out to some time critical things.  In picture it was far over 1 minute and ith infinite persistence for collect.

[marmad]

Jitter peak to peak  is roughly 10ns.
Delay is roughly what reads in picture  minus 1.4m M17/84 (aka RG223) "delay line" (signal cable)

Nice - at least it's better than the Rigol DS2000 series. Did you check the delay if using Ext. Trigger In? On the Rigol it drops by about 60ms; I would be curious if it did on the Siglent.

[Peter1964]

Just wondering.

I am in the market for a scope and looking on Rigol DS 2072 A, Rigol DS 1074 Z and Siglent SDS 2072.
I do realize that the Rigol 1074 is a cheaper model but I only need a scope for audio and some small home made electronics.
I might start playing with Arduino or something like that.
Oh also need a function generator and looks on Siglent SDG 805/810 or Rigol 1022.

On the net I have found some post and videos calling Siglent "crap" but as I understand it is a very big producer of scopes and many more electronics equipment and some vendors just rebrand Siglents as OEM market do. So I figure they can't be that bad.

But better be save than sorry. So does anyone of you have some inside/knowledge about Siglent vs. Rigol.
Also I am in Denmark (EU) - any ideas where it would be best to buy Siglent?
We do not have a local as far as I know - at least not cheap. I am thinking our nice neighbor south - Germany.
They have Batronix for Rigol and Atten (will buy a new soldering station there Atten AT8502D).

Recently I bought a Brymen 869 mulimeter form TME in Poland. My old analog meter actually is produced in Poland more than 30 years ago and still very good and cool looking - kind of funny.

Regards Peter

[Thilo78]

...
Also I am in Denmark (EU) - any ideas where it would be best to buy Siglent?
We do not have a local as far as I know - at least not cheap. I am thinking our nice neighbor south - Germany.

Take a look at http://www.siglent.eu/
Maybe they ship to Denmark, if the prices are ok for you.

Thilo