Siglent's new product- MSO/SDS2000 Series

[rf-loop]

@rf-loop or tautech:

Would it be possible to see an image of an AM signal during Normal sweep @ 1ms/div (or 500us/div for memory match)?

Acquire: Normal
Memory depth: 14M (or 28M)
Display: Sin(x)/x (Vectors)
Time base: 1ms/div
Input signal: 100 Hz - Fo: 50kHz - Depth: 0.99

From the Rigol:

Attached marmad's original picture.

This is nice if oscilloscope is monitoring well known signal. But then why use oscilloscope.

Oscilloscope is normally used for look more or less undefined signal.
Now, if some less experienced user get just this picture without any knowledge about signal... yes It can quess there is 100Hz modulation but after then.. there is around 5kHz signal.. how it is possible it aliases 50kHz sinewave when screen tell there is 1GSa/s realtime sampling rate.  Trying same signal with analog oscilloscope or oscilloscope what really try emulate analog...  something is wrong? Also this aliasing breaks this shape bottom and top... very deeply. There need be just pure 100Hs sine shape.

[marmad]

Why make so much opinions and thinking about things what are not yet tested or displayed. Is it better first tesat and investigate and after there is more data and tests then make opinions etc about things what are not yet ready showed.

Because you and others are posting selective information (and comparisons) in a public forum about a product which is not available to be reviewed/analyzed. I guess it's just in my nature to speculate and form theories

But here again some random samples... with some continuously variable signal.
And they show that intensity grading (and color grading) works also with slower speeds with more memory.

Yes, but even 2 shades of a color can be considered grading. But it's clear that the levels are reduced with larger memory sizes (which was my original point). Your images contain the following number of levels:

1.4M: Color: 12 - Intensity: 24   /   2.8M: Color: 12 - Intensity:  24   /   14M: Color: 4 - Intensity: 8   /   28M: Color: 3 - Intensity: 4

And 66 levels in the 14k image you posted yesterday.

Again, I never said this was a bad design decision by Siglent - in fact, just the opposite. But it doesn't mean that I can't wonder and comment about it. Otherwise, why is anything being posted here at all?

Attached marmad's original picture.

Posted to show the Rigol grading:  the 14M image has 52 levels   /   the 28M image has 47 levels  - but slower wfrm/s rate than the Siglent, thus a trade-off.

[marmad]

rf-loop: Don't take me wrong - the Siglent looks very good in many ways - really! 

I'm just speculating on what Siglent's designers/programmers have done. Low cost DPOs are new - so it's interesting to see how each new manufacturer approaches the design problems.

Perhaps Siglent's idea was that the intensity levels are directly related to waveform capture rates across all time bases? In other words, 100 pixel-crossings at 100 wfrms/s is the same relative intensity as 100 pixel-crossings at 1000 wfrm/s - as opposed to 100% intensity and 10% intensity?

Maybe it's a better strategy for uniform grading - since Rigol's grading jumps around quite alot (and annoyingly sometimes) at different time bases.


EDIT: BTW, I come from a very large family - so sometimes shouting out opinions first (before much thinking) was the only way to get heard. I know it's bad sometimes, but it's in my blood 

[kebogen]

User may also adjust it some amount using intensity adjustment - specially this effect is visible if color is on. (not separately demonstrated in these pictures)

The SDS2000 series has color display? It looks really great just from the picture.   
Is it  very useful to find a burr?

[rf-loop]

Yes it can do some art.

(some pictures use dots mode and some picture vectors)

This is just playing like kids, not serious. Signal also is just garbage.
Just only for some more demonstration about intensity grading / color grading.
Note: every single image have some amount different signal. (from antenna)

[Hydrawerk]

It is definitely better implemented DPO function, than on that GW Instek GDS-2000A

[tautech]

After looking through all posts for the new Siglent SDS2000 series I realized there were no images posted with all channels displayed. 
So here you go, nothing smart, clever or wiz-bang just 1KHz signals with a few of the user definable measurements showing for CH 2.
BTW screen intensity (brightness) approx 1/3 of max. 

[kebogen]

Thank you ,RF-loop, I get some other  problems.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=22325.0;attach=73983;image

This picture I think it's vector mode,but the main color is green.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent's-new-product-msosds2000-series/?action=dlattach;attach=74311;image

but this one is blue, what parameters have the relationship to color display?
this is what i think,maybe is wrong, the more waveform displayed at the same place,the color is more red,the less waveform the color will be green or blue?
red>blue>green?

[jadew]

Since Siglent is watching the thread and they're still fiddling with the firmware, maybe they'll find a better spot for the the time/div label. It should be on the same vertical or horizontal line as volts/div labels, so I guess it should be squeezed somewhere on the right side for this current layout.

Aside from that, I think everyone is waiting for a better look so maybe one of these scopes can find its way to Dave. It seems to fall exactly where the Rigol's DS2xx4 would have been, so a lot of people are probably very interested at this point. Personally, I'm trying to figure out if I'm going to wait for it or get the Rigol DS1000Z - the DS4000 being out of my price range.

[Mark_O]

After looking through all posts for the new Siglent SDS2000 series I realized there were no images posted with all channels displayed. 
So here you go, nothing smart, clever or wiz-bang just 1KHz signals with a few of the user definable measurements showing for CH 2.
BTW screen intensity (brightness) approx 1/3 of max. 

Thanks very much, tautech.  That's surprisingly useful.  Not just to see all 4 channel traces active, but also all the info boxes at the side filled in, without empty space.  It also shows that all 14 horiz. divisions are visible, without being occluded by popup sidebars.

One thing there that's initially confusing though is that the selected Measures are in pinkish Red.  As is the channel marker for Chan2 on the right.  But the trace for Chan2 is purple.  I'm guessing that's a minor tweak still to be resolved.

[Mark_O]

...I think everyone is waiting for a better look so maybe one of these scopes can find its way to Dave.

I think Dave's evaluation would be great, once they have everything finished.  But at this earlier stage, I think both Siglent and potential owners would benefit more from someone who'd spend the considerable time needed to wring out all the issues.  Like marmad, for example.

It seems to fall exactly where the Rigol's DS2xx4 would have been, so a lot of people are probably very interested at this point.

I'd agree with that assessment.  Rigol has left a hole in their lineup.  With no hint they have any plans to fill it any time soon.

Personally, I'm trying to figure out if I'm going to wait for it or get the Rigol DS1000Z - the DS4000 being out of my price range.

Yes, I'm in the same boat.  I really need 4 channels, but can't justify the price of a DS4014.  And the DS1074Z is a bit weak, in spite of being excellent bang for the buck.  I already have 4 other 4-channel scopes (LeCroy, Teks, and Yokogawa), but none are compact, lightweight, and color.  And have the memory depth of the SDS2000.  And with the 8-channel MSO option and protocol decoders, the new Siglents could be ideal for the kind of embedded systems work I do every day.

[Fsck]

...I think everyone is waiting for a better look so maybe one of these scopes can find its way to Dave.

I think Dave's evaluation would be great, once they have everything finished.  But at this earlier stage, I think both Siglent and potential owners would benefit more from someone who'd spend the considerable time needed to wring out all the issues.  Like marmad, for example.

It seems to fall exactly where the Rigol's DS2xx4 would have been, so a lot of people are probably very interested at this point.

I'd agree with that assessment.  Rigol has left a hole in their lineup.  With no hint they have any plans to fill it any time soon.

Personally, I'm trying to figure out if I'm going to wait for it or get the Rigol DS1000Z - the DS4000 being out of my price range.

Yes, I'm in the same boat.  I really need 4 channels, but can't justify the price of a DS4014.  And the DS1074Z is a bit weak, in spite of being excellent bang for the buck.  I already have 4 other 4-channel scopes (LeCroy, Teks, and Yokogawa), but none are compact, lightweight, and color.  And have the memory depth of the SDS2000.  And with the 8-channel MSO option and protocol decoders, the new Siglents could be ideal for the kind of embedded systems work I do every day.

]

haha, me too. I've been waiting for the ds2xx4-bracket as well. agilent competes in that bracket but so very pricey.

[tautech]

Since Siglent is watching the thread and they're still fiddling with the firmware, maybe they'll find a better spot for the the time/div label. It should be on the same vertical or horizontal line as volts/div labels, so I guess it should be squeezed somewhere on the right side for this current layout.

I almost agreed with you until I had a good look at ALL the information that is on the right side already. That all needs to stay there! The Trigger settings box has 5 lines in Pattern mode! (Serial Decoding) Where else could you put or want that?
So to include time/div and Delay and Trigger state (which need to be together IMO)one would need 3 lines to display that info plus an appropriate sized box and border. There is just not that much room using the existing font. Font is the right size at a full arms reach, but if you eyes have aged....there is a little room to close boxes together, but some may wish for bigger font.
The frequency counter could be moved but where?
Things we don't know yet are what other icons populate the top bar?
We see a PC and USB and AWG icons plus AWG impedance setting but there is PC host and LAN connections that I do not yet know if they will be displayed or not. 

So as you can see its a busy piece of real-estate.

Siglent have in the past displayed time/div at bottom center but with this series and 7 setting/function buttons at bottom of screen they had to go somewhere else.

Sorry but I have one in front of me and try as I might to visualize a different layout, I would leave it like it is. 

Don't get me wrong .... great suggestion, keep them coming

Lets see if the others that have this model have any comments on your suggestion.

[tautech]

After looking through all posts for the new Siglent SDS2000 series I realized there were no images posted with all channels displayed. 
So here you go, nothing smart, clever or wiz-bang just 1KHz signals with a few of the user definable measurements showing for CH 2.
BTW screen intensity (brightness) approx 1/3 of max. 

Thanks very much, tautech.  That's surprisingly useful.  Not just to see all 4 channel traces active, but also all the info boxes at the side filled in, without empty space.  It also shows that all 14 horiz. divisions are visible, without being occluded by popup sidebars.

One thing there that's initially confusing though is that the selected Measures are in pinkish Red.  As is the channel marker for Chan2 on the right.  But the trace for Chan2 is purple.  I'm guessing that's a minor tweak still to be resolved.

Wondered who would notice that first. 
I really posted it for Siglent to see. 

Yes it is a color mismatch between Ch2 and Ch2 measurements.
Guessing they did that to test us. 

Edit:
But no, there is a visibility advantage in the color they have chosen, better than Purple IMO but a little confusing initially as you have pointed out.

[BravoV]

Just imagining if they allowed a user's defined color palletes for the intensities, would that be nice ? or not ? 

[tautech]

Just imagining if they allowed a user's defined color palletes for the intensities, would that be nice ? or not ? 

Well essentially Siglent do that, as when Color is turned on, the max intensity portion of the waveform can be adjusted to bright Red with the Intensity(Brightness) knob and the lower intensities follow suit through the available color spectrum.

[rf-loop]

Priority.
HW need work.
FW need work first with most basic things (now it works, we can capture signal to screen and do some basic measurements - and it can this - with lot of fatal and semifatal and minor bugs) and then of course also other important functions need add and last also some minor things.
After then, also some cosmetic things may need some adjust.

All power need now put for serious important functions. Do not push Siglent to do cosmetics and dingle dongles when they need concentrate all working power for important functions functionality and other first priority things. There is so many important functional things totally yet missing. Also HW may need some small fix (this HW is good but front end can fine tune some better).

Btw, afaik, MSO2000 is different product. It is not "option" for SDS2000 models!
MSO2000 is coming later.

But now, Siglent need do hard work for add all functions what lare totally missing now and also repair current many bugs. Also minor fine adjustment inside front end need do.  (for drop noise level and for better frequency response shape. (it is now just good but not exellent (in my scale). "State of art" class do not need even try.

This product is not at all ready for Dave's ranting show. It need now real and documented well done lab tests and finish it ready for markets.

[marmad]

Well essentially Siglent do that, as when Color is turned on, the max intensity portion of the waveform can be adjusted to bright Red with the Intensity(Brightness) knob and the lower intensities follow suit through the available color spectrum.

I think BravoV knows what color grading is. I believe he's talking about the possibility of assigning a color map to the grading. If it was implemented correctly, it would allow you to chose any two different colors as end points for the grading - allowing either different types of intensity maps (such as gray scale or two-color gradients) or different color grading besides color-temperature - such as black-body color grading.

[BravoV]

Well essentially Siglent do that, as when Color is turned on, the max intensity portion of the waveform can be adjusted to bright Red with the Intensity(Brightness) knob and the lower intensities follow suit through the available color spectrum.

I think BravoV knows what color grading is. I believe he's talking about the possibility of assigning a color map to the grading. If it was implemented correctly, it would allow you to chose any two different colors as end points for the grading - allowing either different different types of intensity maps (such as gray scale or two-color gradients) or different color grading besides color-temperature - such as black-body color grading.

Ahh.. thank you Mark. 

I guess my English still needs lots of improvements  , yes, that is exactly what I meant.

Abit OT, got this idea when I was following the monstrous E4 hack thread, they're currently busy toying with different color palletes for generated thermal image.

Dunno, not an expert, just a wild thought whether if this feature will be useful for scope. 

[marmad]

Abit OT, got this idea when I was following the monstrous E4 hack thread, they're currently busy toying with different color palletes for generated thermal image.

Dunno, not an expert, just a wild thought whether if this feature will be useful for scope. 

I agree it would be useful - and it's kind of surprising no one has implemented it yet (although I'm sure it will happen at some point). I don't think it would affect the speed much since it's basically just a color map between the intensity values and the display - which other graphical displays do all the time. Utility software I wrote does it for Rigol's UltraVision scopes (that's how I generated the images above).

[BravoV]

I agree it would be useful - and it's kind of surprising no one has implemented it yet (although I'm sure it will happen at some point). I don't think it would affect the speed much since it's basically just a color map between the intensity values and the display - which other graphical displays do all the time. Utility software I wrote does it for Rigol's UltraVision scopes (that's how I generated the images above).

Exactly, there will be no penalties at the performance what so ever, assuming they're not hiring shitty programmer of course.

Just by adding a kindergarten level front end program that allowed user to alter the color map and save it at few user's owned preset choices, that is it, pretty simple I'd say.

[Mark_O]

Priority.
HW need work.
FW need work first with most basic things (now it works, we can capture signal to screen and do some basic measurements - and it can this - with lot of fatal and semifatal and minor bugs) and then of course also other important functions need add and last also some minor things.
After then, also some cosmetic things may need some adjust.

All power need now put for serious important functions. Do not push Siglent to do cosmetics and dingle dongles when they need concentrate all working power for important functions functionality and other first priority things. There is so many important functional things totally yet missing. Also HW may need some small fix (this HW is good but front end can fine tune some better).

This is very wise advice, and Siglent would do well to heed it.  My confusion is that comments were made that this scope is already for sale in China, and it doesn't seem ready for that at all. 

Btw, afaik, MSO2000 is different product. It is not "option" for SDS2000 models!
MSO2000 is coming later.

I think you're probably right, but it would be well for Siglent not to post pictures such as these, with the LA connector on the front of a clearly badged SDS2304:

But now, Siglent need do hard work for add all functions what lare totally missing now and also repair current many bugs. Also minor fine adjustment inside front end need do.  (for drop noise level and for better frequency response shape. (it is now just good but not exellent (in my scale). "State of art" class do not need even try.

This product is not at all ready for Dave's ranting show. It need now real and documented well done lab tests and finish it ready for markets.

A very honest and objective appraisal.  Thanks.  I certainly agree that Dave's critical evaluation would do no one much good right now.  (Or any unfinished product... not focusing on this specific device).

[Hydrawerk]

This product (=SDS2000) is not at all ready for Dave's ranting show. It need now real and documented well done lab tests and finish it ready for markets.

But Siglent promised to release this scope in December 2013.  On the other hand, you can buy it today at Alibaba shop. Isn't that strange??
http://siglent.en.alibaba.com/product/1548130552-220476572/Siglent_SDS2304_DPO_Oscilloscope_digital_oscilloscope_300MHz_4_channels.html

[marmad]

On the other hand, you can buy it today at Alibaba shop. Isn't that strange??

An advert on the internet does not necessarily equal a product ready to ship - no matter what it claims.

[Mark_O]

But Siglent promised to release this scope in December 2013. 

I'm not sure that any Product Release announcement can be considered a "promise".  And in fairness to Siglent, they probably thought they'd have it done by now, considering they showed the first prototype back in April.

On the other hand, you can buy it today at Alibaba shop. Isn't that strange??

Just because it's being advertised as available, by an Alibaba seller, doesn't necessarily mean it is.  But yes, as I commented above, it seemed odd that it had been reported as currently selling in China back in October (see the original post here)...

Now MSO/SDS2000 is launched only in China, I heard that it was sold very well in China now. I think it will soon appear on the market all over the world.

and yet it's fairly obvious it isn't finished yet.  I don't understand how that works.