Siglent's new product- MSO/SDS2000 Series

[nctnico]

I think Siglent has done a good job  of trying their best to improve the firmware by asking the community for help/feedback - joining this forum was a smart idea... shame some are so hostile.

I beg to differ. The initial firmware Siglent released was not ready for serious use by a long shot and using the community to point out the problems is just lame. I buy a scope to use and not to be a tester of it's alpha version firmware! I think losing about 1700 euros on an SDS2204 oscilloscope gives me a right to be a critic. Its a short term win-win for Siglent though. They sold a scope and didn't need to hire software testers. In the long run it is not a good strategy because I'll think very long and hard before buying anything from Siglent again and most certainly not a piece of equipment which has been released less than 3 years ago. Looking back at other Siglent equipment you can see it takes them approx. 3 years to come up with decent firmware.

[nbritton]

I think Siglent has done a good job  of trying their best to improve the firmware by asking the community for help/feedback - joining this forum was a smart idea... shame some are so hostile.

I beg to differ. The initial firmware Siglent released was not ready for serious use by a long shot and using the community to point out the problems is just lame. I buy a scope to use and not to be a tester of it's alpha version firmware! I think losing about 1700 euros on an SDS2204 oscilloscope gives me a right to be a critic. Its a short term win-win for Siglent though. They sold a scope and didn't need to hire software testers. In the long run it is not a good strategy because I'll think very long and hard before buying anything from Siglent again and most certainly not a piece of equipment which has been released less than 3 years ago. Looking back at other Siglent equipment you can see it takes them approx. 3 years to come up with decent firmware.

They can't even code a decent website, I have no faith in their software team. Also they're buying reviews, I feel this is unethical: http://www.siglentamerica.com/qyxwxx.aspx?id=1403&sid=216

[tautech]

They can't even code a decent website, I have no faith in their software team.

Have you bought this to the attention of the GM of Siglent America.
Steve is a member here, send him a detailed PM of your concerns.
To save you some trouble here is a link to Steves profile:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/profile/?u=97174

Also they're buying reviews, I feel this is unethical: http://www.siglentamerica.com/qyxwxx.aspx?id=1403&sid=216

Buying reviews? 
Siglent have offered draws for specified products for some time. It is part of a process of engagement with Siglent purchasers for feedback on Siglent products for on-going improvements and development.
You call this unethical? 

[nctnico]

Siglent's website was probably outsourced to a teenager or made by an intern. There is no way it is done by a professional web designer! The webdesigner probably showed it on his/her tablet and some clueless manager signed off on it. Now that clueless manager has to save his/her face without admitting he/she got fooled and wasted the company's money. Anyway a website says very little about the quality / qualifications of the company it represents. Siglent just has got to fire the person responsible for the website and hire a decent web designer.

[nbritton]

They can't even code a decent website, I have no faith in their software team.

Have you bought this to the attention of the GM of Siglent America.

The root problem is not the website per se, the problem is the management at the company who thought it was ok to deploy that turd. These same people are apparently in charge of product firmware.

[CustomEngineerer]

I’ve detected another quirk with the new beta FW R2.0: Every time I turn the scope on, I find several settings all over the place. Acquisition mode, memory depth, automatic measurements – pretty much everything _might_ be different to what it was hwen I turned the scope off. It always seem to be just two settings that are randomly changed, but it’s always different ones. Go figure…

I think this is the smoking gun pointing to the firmware being a re-hash of the old firmware instead of a complete rewrite. The old firmware had exactly the same problem!

I had the same thought about the "new" website.

[TheDefpom]

Something I would like to see in any new firmware is the ability to set the trigger/pass-fail output on the rear to be set as a passthrough of the ch1/ch2 input, so I could connect my frequency counter to that, and probe an input with the scope and have it sent to the counter through the output on the rear, which is something my old Tektronix 2432A does, Ch2 is buffered and amplified and sent to an output on the rear, perfect for passing the signals onto other bits of test gear without loading down the circuit under test.

Anyone know if it is possible to easily correct a slight frequency error on the scope, it is of by a bit (I don't remember exactly how much), but means I cannot use the built in frequency readout. if it uses a basic 10MHz oscillator one day I might open it up (in about 3 years time, after warranty expired) and install a calibrated TCXO.

[rf-loop]

Something I would like to see in any new firmware is the ability to set the trigger/pass-fail output on the rear to be set as a passthrough of the ch1/ch2 input, so I could connect my frequency counter to that, and probe an input with the scope and have it sent to the counter through the output on the rear, which is something my old Tektronix 2432A does, Ch2 is buffered and amplified and sent to an output on the rear, perfect for passing the signals onto other bits of test gear without loading down the circuit under test.

This is nice  feature in many tektronix oscilloscopes. Also it can use as amplifier to get more sensitivity. (eg input to CH2  then rear output to CH1 and watch CH1 signal.

In this Siglent model (and in many other scopes) it is not possible to do just with FW so that pass/fail/trig out can change for analog output for selected input channel analog "repeter" output.  There is not analog circuit for it. There is only binary ouput as 1 or 0.


About internal reference.
It can modify for better reference oscillator. But there is not ready instructions for it or least I do not have.  Who ever do it he is responsible about design it with his own. Also  it is possible to modify for external reference but agen, it need some design and enough experience for do it. If I remember right there is TCXO now. I do not know any method for adjust it. Normally accuracy and stability is enough for meet given specifications. If want more, it need design and do.

[TheDefpom]

Thanks for the reply.

I am guessing here, but a binary output could probably drive a counter, if it is able to switch fast enough, maybe a firmware linking it to the waveform trigger, so it comes on at a rising edge and off at a falling edge, if the electronics can output fast enough it could work well enough as a counter output, at he moment that output is of no use to me, and probably many others.

I was hoping the the built in counter would be of a high resolution and precision, I'm sure it could be with correct firmware, and reference oscillator, a constant 1Hz precision would be good enough in my case, but it does rounding and although it may display as 10.000.000Mhz or similar, it isn't actually that, due to its rounding, it may actually be very different, such as 10.000.030Mhz (used as example only).

If the Firmware had a full time 9 digit counter with 1Hz accuracy that would be perfect, and I wouldn't need to hook up an external counter.

[nctnico]

In general: an oscilloscope isn't a frequency counter unless it has a frequency counter built in. Showing the frequency based on the trigger is useful but in most cases it doesn't replace a dedicated frequency counter. If I need to know the frequency of a signal precisely I use a frequency counter.

[9a4wy]

New FIRMWARE for SDS2000 series is here     :
http://www.siglent.com/ENs/gjjrj.aspx?id=15

[cidcorp]

Thanks '9a4wy' for the heads up.

Sadly I'm knee deep in boards to be soldered so I won't get a chance to look at the new firmware until this weekend.

Hopefully others will offer feedback on the upgrade so I'll know what I'm in for.

Fingers crossed they've made a good range of improvements.

[tautech]

New FIRMWARE for SDS2000 series is here     :
http://www.siglent.com/ENs/gjjrj.aspx?id=15

Thanks, good spotting, it's also available from the Siglent America site:

Note: this is a new version of the V1 firmware: 1.01.01.37.9

http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Firmware&Software/firmware/SDS2000-1.01.01.37.9.rar
2.8 Mb

Alas, again there are no changelogs.
Notes say ~7 minutes to update, but a roll back from V2 Beta took ~10 minutes.


If you are running the V2 BETA that Siglent offered 15 Sept, the BETA will be rolled back to this new V1 firmware linked above.

V2 Beta:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent's-new-product-msosds2000-series/msg754971/#msg754971




Personally I prefer the V2 Beta FW, the UI in particular, it is very similar to the new SDS1000X series and the uniformity between these two series makes for a simpler comparison by prospective customers.

[9a4wy]

Yes it's back to V1 FW....
I had a problem installing new 37.9 version over the beta 2.0.
Scope just freezes and staying 30min. at 5% update...so my heart also stopped   

But SIGLENT CHINA tech support Mr. Wu was very kind and comunication was surprisingly fast over e-mails...problem solved in 5 minutes!!!
I had to upload first FW+CFG version 37.2 then 37.9
37.9 cannot load directly to BETA 2.0
Kristian

[Wuerstchenhund]

37.9 cannot load directly to BETA 2.0

Strange, as this is exactly what I've done yesterday night. It stuck at 5% for a very long time but I just left it sitting there for half an hour and when I came back the update finished.

Not that I'm too impressed, as after playing around with the scope shortly I already came across a few bugs (i.e. display artefacts in FFT mode). 

Note: this is a new version of the V1 firmware: 1.01.01.37.9

[...]

Alas, again there are no changelogs.

Of course not, it's again up to the user to guess or explore what they f****d up this time. So much to Siglent listening to user requests. 

If you are running the V2 BETA that Siglent offered 15 Sept, the BETA will be rolled back to this new V1 firmware linked above.

Personally I prefer the V2 Beta FW, the UI in particular, it is very similar to the new SDS1000X series and the uniformity between these two series makes for a simpler comparison by prospective customers.

I wonder why they even bothered with the Beta when they still "work" with the original firmware. Wasn't the original explanation that they couldn't fix the v1 firmware and therefore came out with v2?

Also, I know that it's still early in the months but isn't the supposed to come "super update" that fixes all bugs and turns this embarrassment into a usable product not promised to come out this month? So far I haven't heard any news when it will come out. Have you?

Anyways, my quick test showed that there are still silly bugs in the new firmware. Maybe instead of harrassing ebay sellers they should have spend time and money into fixing this mess instead, or pay someone else to do it as they are apparently not competent to do that themselves.

[nctnico]

I'm starting to feel sorry for having sold my SDS2204...  Now somebody else is wasting his time on it... I should have crushed it with a big rock and put a video on Youtube 

[Wuerstchenhund]

I'm starting to feel sorry for having sold my SDS2204...  Now somebody else is wasting his time on it... I should have crushed it with a big rock and put a video on Youtube 

I wouldn't worry, I'm sure who bought it has read this thread and knew what he was getting into 

My SDS2000 is bolted to a wall of a small shed-like unit and spends its time as a simple waveform monitor for a few simple signals, so I'm not bothered by the bugs. Plus my main scope is much better in any regards (except maybe acoustic noise) than the SDS2000 or anything Siglent else Siglent has ever made 

However, it's interesting to see that Siglent doesn't even seem to try anymore to create at least a basic level of professionalism. and I have zero optimism that Siglent will ever fix the SDS2000 firmware. It's beyond me why they didn't just out-source the software part (can't be any worse than what their own bunch come up with) and focus on the hardware.

[tautech]

If you are running the V2 BETA that Siglent offered 15 Sept, the BETA will be rolled back to this new V1 firmware linked above.

Personally I prefer the V2 Beta FW, the UI in particular, it is very similar to the new SDS1000X series and the uniformity between these two series makes for a simpler comparison by prospective customers.

Wasn't the original explanation that they couldn't fix the v1 firmware and therefore came out with v2?

That was everybody's assumption only. Truth? 

Also, I know that it's still early in the months but isn't the supposed to come "super update" that fixes all bugs and turns this embarrassment into a usable product not promised to come out this month? So far I haven't heard any news when it will come out. Have you?

Only what Siglent have publically released.
Isn't the beauty with FW that not only bugs can be rectified but the UI can be changed dramatically tfor a much better user experience AND the HW can be made to perform more efficiently and in the case of the SDS2000 free additional memory. This should be worth waiting for Siglent to get this right.

It is evident V2 FW (or parts of it) is used in the new SDS1000X series also and until all models/variants of the new series are released one presumes Siglent are still tweaking V2 FW.

With the Siglent CEO and the America GM visiting Dave late this month/early Dec hopefully there might be some surprises in store for us all by then.
I know there are some. 
 

My SDS2000........

Which model and what options do you have?

Anyways, my quick test showed that there are still silly bugs in the new firmware.

Please share them.

Maybe instead of harrassing ebay sellers they should have spend time.........

+1

[Wuerstchenhund]

Also, I know that it's still early in the months but isn't the supposed to come "super update" that fixes all bugs and turns this embarrassment into a usable product not promised to come out this month? So far I haven't heard any news when it will come out. Have you?

Only what Siglent have publically released.

As I thought. Which isn't very comforting that they actually come up with that promised fix.

Isn't the beauty with FW that not only bugs can be rectified but the UI can be changed dramatically tfor a much better user experience AND the HW can be made to perform more efficiently and in the case of the SDS2000 free additional memory. This should be worth waiting for Siglent to get this right.

Yeah? How long should we give them this time? Another year? Especially after they only just now demonstrated again how worthless their promises are:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent%27s-new-product-msosds2000-series/msg754971/#msg754971

"We provide the beta firmware here.http://www.siglentamerica.com/Other/SDS2000 V100R02B01D01P19.rar
SDS2000 2.0 firmware (V100R02B01D01Pxx) is an update release series derived from 1.0 firmware
(V100R01B01D01Pxx). Based on 1.0 firmware, the 2.0 release added some important features, and
fixed some bugs. Refer to the table below for detailed information:
SPO1.0 -> SPO2.0.

[...]

MSO MSO will not be fully supported until Oct. 2015.
Decoder CAN, LIN will not be supported in decoder until Oct. 2015
Power Analysis Power Analysis option is not fully verified. To be released in Dec. 2015"

Have you seen a new 2.x firmware in October that supports MOS and CAN/LIN? I haven't.

There's a old saying: "Fooled me once, shame on you! Fooled me twice, shame on me!" It's pretty clear that any of Siglent's promises aren't worth anything.

It is evident V2 FW (or parts of it) is used in the new SDS1000X series also and until all models/variants of the new series are released one presumes Siglent are still tweaking V2 FW.

Maybe. But they already failed to deliver the MSO and CAN/LIN parts last month, just as they failed to deliver on their promise to finally fix the SDS2000 bugs for good.

With the Siglent CEO and the America GM visiting Dave late this month/early Dec hopefully there might be some surprises in store for us all by then.
I know there are some. 
 

Yes, and I'm sure Dave will also ask them some tough questions, but I'd be very surprised if we get anything else than the standard corporate apologism and more empty promises.

My SDS2000........

Which model and what options do you have?

SDS2204 with everything except Power Analysis. Someone told me the 200MHz 4ch variant is the one that sold most, but somehow I guess it's also the variant that's returned most often. 

Anyways, my quick test showed that there are still silly bugs in the new firmware.

Please share them.

I thought I did. Plus as mentioned before the scope is bolted to the wall for a certain purpose, and I don't intend to spend any more time looking for other bugs that Siglent could have found themselves if they actually had someone who had even the slightest clue about software testing, which clearly isn't the case. But I guess I'm overly harsh here, after all this company can't even afford a proper web designer or a lawyer which is why they have to use Chinese marketing apprentices to fight "unauthorized" sales.

Siglent really does its best to confirm pretty much every prejudice that exists about Chinese companies. 

[9a4wy]

Oh boy...
My CH2 trace became  yellow, not pink like it has to be :-((
Another one....after coffee time I came back and scope was freezed...all buttons inoperative...
I am really sick and tired from this...
Fw beta v2.0 is the best.
Nctnico...I have two of them...please find a big rock and we can make a big bang with all 3 of them...
My plan was to buy another 2pcs. SDS2104..but now I am finished with them.
Kristian

[tautech]

My CH2 trace became  yellow, not pink like it has to be :-((
Another one....after coffee time I came back and scope was freezed...all buttons inoperative...

Hmm, no problems here, CH2 still pink.

[nctnico]

I have seen that problem too (all channels going yellow) but I have never been able to find which sequence is causing it to happen and how to make it go. It does go away after a while.

@9a4wy: I already got rid of mine a while ago and feel better every day 

[cidcorp]

Confused yet again, I thought the new release of the firmware that was to be for Oct/2015 (added a year to be clear  ) which was to include MSO features
and Decode CAN/LIN... was to be the v2 firmware...  I'll hold off then, as I already installed the v2 beta firmware and like some of the changes.

I'm still holding on to the hopes that this will all turn around.  Personally my expectations are low so I can't see myself getting disappointed.

Chris

[tautech]

Which model and what options do you have?

SDS2204 with everything except Power Analysis. Someone told me the 200MHz 4ch variant is the one that sold most, but somehow I guess it's also the variant that's returned most often. 

Anyways, my quick test showed that there are still silly bugs in the new firmware.

Please share them.

I thought I did. Plus as mentioned before the scope is bolted to the wall for a certain purpose, and I don't intend to spend any more time looking for other bugs that Siglent could have found themselves if they actually had someone who had even the slightest clue about software testing, which clearly isn't the case.

After searching the forum for definitive examples of SDS2000 bugs that you have mentioned I have found nothing of note that could assist Siglent to correct the entirely buggy FW you so frequently describe. 


With much trepidation I ask for a simple list, even pointers to functionality that is not correct?


We all know you have significant experience with many high end scopes, most far beyond the capabilites of the SDS2000 series and as you have taken the trouble and expense to evaulate a SDS2000 for yourself, wouldn't you want it to be fully functional?

Surely you would, wouldn't you? 

[Wuerstchenhund]

After searching the forum for definitive examples of SDS2000 bugs that you have mentioned I have found nothing of note that could assist Siglent to correct the entirely buggy FW you so frequently describe. 

Well then I have to say that you didn't do a very good job searching then (I even highlighted the revelant part):

37.9 cannot load directly to BETA 2.0

Strange, as this is exactly what I've done yesterday night. It stuck at 5% for a very long time but I just left it sitting there for half an hour and when I came back the update finished.

Not that I'm too impressed, as after playing around with the scope shortly I already came across a few bugs (i.e. display artefacts in FFT mode). 

Actually, I seem to have found another bug (although I'm not sure if it's new or an old one), unless you think that this is a normal display for an intensity graded AM modulated signal:




The waveform looks exactly the same in normal mode.

The funny thing is that yesterday intensity grading seemed to work, so I guess that's another one of the sporadic bugs that may or may not show up when you need the functionality.

We all know you have significant experience with many high end scopes, most far beyond the capabilites of the SDS2000 series and as you have taken the trouble and expense to evaulate a SDS2000 for yourself, wouldn't you want it to be fully functional?

Surely you would, wouldn't you? 

Actually, I don't really care much because, while the hardware is certainly nicely done, especially the v1 software is terrible even from an usability point of view. This scope is mostly a toy for me anyways (I used it for some simple non-critical tasks that will complete soon) but I do feel very sorry for anyone who invested serious money in a SDS2000 to use it as a tool, and I'm really glad I don't have to rely on it to make a living. I'm now also pretty convinced that this scope will never ever receive a fixed firmware. We're all taken for a ride by Siglent, as we've been in the past.

I also feel somewhat sorry for Siglent resellers like yourself because you have to justify this crap towards your customers while essentially gambling your reputation on the vague hope that the clowns at Siglent do come up with the magic super update one day.

What all this shows however is that spending the money on some used big brand scope instead is still pretty much a better investment than a Siglent SDS2000 scope.

But hey, there are good news, too, it seems my scope will move on soon as a former colleague has expressed interest in it for one of his funky projects (I guess he'll turn it into a 'scope clock' or something like that, of course assuming that at least X/Y mode does work reliably, which with this scope isn't necessarily the case).