Siglent's new product- MSO/SDS2000 Series

[Wuerstchenhund]

It seems a handy thing to have.

Well, I honestly can't think of a situation where this could be useful at the moment. But it's very well possible that I'm just unimaginative.

Clearly it works (from a firmware standpoint) differently than the normal 'delayed sweep' type of zoom with triggered acquisitions, so would require different routines to be written. I suspect that's the reason it doesn't exist on lower cost DSOs - which is too bad because I can imagine certain situations where it could be very useful.

Yes, the zoom in these LeCroy scopes is a true zoom not just delayed sweep, but then LeCroy scopes do many things different than traditional scopes.

My guess would be that delayed sweep "zoom" is prevalent in low cost DSOs because their designers probably looked to analog scopes for inspiration for functionality and user interface, and tried to bring that into the digital world. Most low end DSOs can also be used in a very similar way to a traditional CRO, aside of course from limitations because of the different way a DSO works. Both scope types are also made primarily for visually observing signals (which is why things like persistence and high wfm rates are very important for these DSOs).

LeCroy is different in that their scopes (leaving the overpriced WaveAce low end scopes aside for now) are designed mainly for signal analysis, i.e. producing numbers that reflect the signal parameters. LeCroy also never took too much inspiration from analog scopes. That means for traditional EEs which come from other scopes and which are used to using scopes for merely looking at signals often find LeCroy scopes difficult to use or outright hate them. On the other side, people like scientists or EE's that are more interested in signal parameters than how it looks like tend to love them.

The other thing is probably that both the old Waverunner 2 and the newer 64Xi are based on standard grown-up computer platforms (the WR2 is PowerPC running VxWorks, the 64Xi is x86 running Windows) and not just standard FPGA controllers, which comes with much more processing power but also is more expensive (probably too expensive for being used in low end scopes). That is similarly true for other LeCroy scopes aside from the WaveAce and the new WaveSurfer 30000 (all Siglent rebadges).

[rf-loop]

Siglent:

Hardware-based zoom function...

I do not know exactly what is this really meaning. Need more investigation.

----
Segmented memory (history function)

Time when I did speed- and other tests with this I did not not so much look playback but with this FW what I test it looks like it works up to maximum 80000 frames.  But in this time my work priority was related to speed and memory limits and also for blind time.

Decoding
I believe that decoding is not designed for segmented memory.

[rf-loop]

3) playback in sequence mode does not seem to work

I have just tested (only tiny quick test)

Utility menu "History"
It can playback all captured segments, up to 80000 segment or other maximum depending other settings.
There is normal automatic playback (playback speed is not settable)
It can play forward and backward automatic and also by hand using adjust knob whole segment memory (max over 100MSa/channel).

In acquire - sequence menu function
It can display also up to max 80000 segments.
It can playback but some amount different.
It can select that it display single segment or 2-20 segments overlayed or as "waterfall". (using overlay or waterfall is more easy to find some anomalies in signal (default is 20 segment overlay/waterfall))  (1)
It can playback all these segments what user have selected as limits. Automatic playback is only forward and this Siglent need do better. If go once to forward to upper limit there is no reset or return backward. It can do only using adjust this mutifunction knob.

Also cursors can use in playback mode.

Also zoom in - out can use in playback (in history menu playback and acquire - sequence menu)
(full display zoom in/out using t/div knob, not splitted display zoom)

EDIT; (1) add

it need clarify.
It can sequentially playback whole max 80000 frames (segments) memory. In this mode user can select how many segments is one playback step.
If selected (max) 20 segments then playback show 20 segments (waterfall or overlay) and then in next step it show next 20 segments etc. This user can slect between 1 to 20. Same if use manual playback using knob for step forward or backward.

[Mark_O]

Decoding
I believe that decoding is not designed for segmented memory.

Wow.  I hope you're not correct about that.  That (completely unnecessary) limitation alone would kill the SDS2000 for many potential customers.   

[rf-loop]

Decoding
I believe that decoding is not designed for segmented memory.

Wow.  I hope you're not correct about that.  That (completely unnecessary) limitation alone would kill the SDS2000 for many potential customers.   

This "believe" was from some old FW and only because in some case, I do not remember what, it just show "Function is not useable".

It was just under half hour time with this newest FW 1.1.1.35.1 (just today upgraded) when I fast look playback function in seqmented memory.

So, this my comment need read: I do not know at all.

"I believe that decoding is not designed for segmented memory." => I do not know at all if decode function works with segmented memory history playback.

[nctnico]

Decoding
I believe that decoding is not designed for segmented memory.

Wow.  I hope you're not correct about that.  That (completely unnecessary) limitation alone would kill the SDS2000 for many potential customers.   

I'm not quite sure it would be a deal breaker. Segmented memory could be helpful if the messages you are trying to capture have long pauses in between. But then again a logic analyser may be a better tool for capturing such data.

[Siglent America]

Hi, Don.

We appreciate your comments on the SDS2000 oscilloscope. Please be assured that the factory aps guys have seen your list and have forwarded them to Engineering. I saw the email last night confirming that we also saw some of these issues you pointed out. We will get back to you as we correct these.

Thanks again.
Steve

[nctnico]

Hmm... maybe the firmware gets fixed before my SDS2204 arrives 

[don]

Hi, Don.

We appreciate your comments on the SDS2000 oscilloscope. Please be assured that the factory aps guys have seen your list and have forwarded them to Engineering. I saw the email last night confirming that we also saw some of these issues you pointed out. We will get back to you as we correct these.

Thanks again.
Steve

Hi Steve,

Thanks for response.  The scope features that are bug free work well, it's looking like a nice scope.    I'm pleasantly surprised with its performance, but I'm focused on getting bugs fixed that are impacting my usage so I can verify scope will meet my needs.  I'm optimistic Siglent will resolve long term, and its great to see representation here. I'll try to make positive comments as well because there are lots of good things.  For some background, I use various scopes at work during the day and this scope will be used when I take work home.  As such, I probably have less tolerance for bugs than a hobbiest (for example) and need high confidences issues will be resolved sooner than later. 

One other comment while its top of mind is that the intensity grading does not seem to work in roll mode or single acquisitions. Or if it is working, it doesn't seem to change with the intensity knob other than dimming the entire waveform. It seems like its implemented more as a display persistence and hence only visible if there is a high waveform capture rate.  I was hoping that grading would work on a given capture as the capture is compressed to fit on screen.  Such that each pixel in a pixel column would be color graded according to the number of hits the ADC had sampled at the particular amplitude.

Not sure how its supposed to behave, but a quick thought on what I'm observing.

Regards,
Don

[Siglent America]

"One other comment while its top of mind is that the intensity grading does not seem to work in roll mode or single acquisitions. Or if it is working, it doesn't seem to change with the intensity knob other than dimming the entire waveform. It seems like its implemented more as a display persistence and hence only visible if there is a high waveform capture rate.  I was hoping that grading would work on a given capture as the capture is compressed to fit on screen.  Such that each pixel in a pixel column would be color graded according to the number of hits the ADC had sampled at the particular amplitude."


Hi Don,

Maybe I don't understand your comment correctly but this is how I would expect the scope to operate.

If there is only one sweep or acquisition you can envision the equivalent analog display - there could not be any intensity grading because of only one single trace (a single sweep). The intensity grading (or color temperature trace - you have your pick with this scope) only occurs when the trace hits the same spot repeatedly (in old CRT terms). Same with the roll mode; the actual trace in roll mode is a single acquisition trace so there can be no multiple passes of the trace at any one spot. It's essentially like a strip chart recorder.

So actually, intensity grading is very much like the persistence from a CRT display. I think some even call it "digital persistence."

I hope I addressed your question and I hope my engineering people don't get mad at me   It's actually a fairly difficult concept to put into words.
Steve

[rf-loop]

So actually, intensity grading is very much like the persistence from a CRT display. I think some even call it "digital persistence."

IN analog scope there is intensity grading also even with single sweep.
This Siglent (and many others( have implemeted analog scope intensity grading only very limitedly.

Intensity grading is possible also implement so that it (poorly) emulate analog scope "draw speed related intensity grading"
In single frame there is lot of more real ADC samples what is displayed. Behind one displayed dot there can be hundreds of ADC samples or just one. This can also do intensity grading but this is not implemented in this scope.   Not big thing but... nice if it is.,

[don]

"One other comment while its top of mind is that the intensity grading does not seem to work in roll mode or single acquisitions. Or if it is working, it doesn't seem to change with the intensity knob other than dimming the entire waveform. It seems like its implemented more as a display persistence and hence only visible if there is a high waveform capture rate.  I was hoping that grading would work on a given capture as the capture is compressed to fit on screen.  Such that each pixel in a pixel column would be color graded according to the number of hits the ADC had sampled at the particular amplitude."


Hi Don,

Maybe I don't understand your comment correctly but this is how I would expect the scope to operate.

If there is only one sweep or acquisition you can envision the equivalent analog display - there could not be any intensity grading because of only one single trace (a single sweep). The intensity grading (or color temperature trace - you have your pick with this scope) only occurs when the trace hits the same spot repeatedly (in old CRT terms). Same with the roll mode; the actual trace in roll mode is a single acquisition trace so there can be no multiple passes of the trace at any one spot. It's essentially like a strip chart recorder.

So actually, intensity grading is very much like the persistence from a CRT display. I think some even call it "digital persistence."

I hope I addressed your question and I hope my engineering people don't get mad at me   It's actually a fairly difficult concept to put into words.
Steve

Hi Steve,

I understand the operation of grading you are referring to.  What I'm referring to is actually the same concept when used to compress a large captured acquisition to fit on screen.  For example, if you fit 1Msample of data on a screen that is 1000 pixels wide, each column will represent 1000 data points.  You might take the maximum of the 1000 data points and display it as the on-screen data, or average, etc.  Or perform  grading, where you count the amplitudes from all 1000 data points and assign a color to them ranked from highest occurence to lowest occurrence.

So the concept is the same as grading from multiple waveforms, but instead of pulling one pixel of data from each waveform, you are downscaling data from a single large waveform and compressing it to fit on screen while still preserving  frequency & amplitude characteristics of the larger waveform.

Thanks for clarifying expected operation.   I'm sure the engineering team will cut you some slack as its great to get actual customer feedback.  Just don't commit to features they did not sign up to... like intensity grading in roll mode perhaps (please do though)

Don

[nctnico]

Well I'm happy DSOs don't try to emulate poor the poor visibility of narrow pulses on an analog scope 
A DSO is a different machine and designers of those should think about ways to visualise every aspect of a signal and not emulate obsolete technology. If I buy a new car I don't want a model T Ford with airbags.

[tautech]

@ don
Siglent replies to your post:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent's-new-product-msosds2000-series/msg493484/#msg493484

I think this customer did not update the firmware 35.1. please see my answer. My unit is software 35.1, hardware 5-3.  I will report to the R&D department too, but they reply me that the new version firmware will come.
1)   zoom does not work in roll mode
True
2)   zoom does not work when decoding
True
3)   cursors do not work in zoom mode
If you press cursor –track first , then press zoom, it will work, but not perfect. So it is also exist.
4)   changing time base in roll mode is centered on right edge of screen instead of center of screen (works correctly in YT mode)
most of other manufacturer do this.
5)   changing time base in roll mode (centered on right edge of screen ) works for sample size up to 1.4Mpts.  At 7Mpts and 14Mpts waveform focal points shifts off screen when time base reduction causes sample size to decrease  two steps (is 7Mpts ->2.8Mpt->1.4Mpts= fail)
I can not understand it.
6)   i2C decode only works reliably if normal trigger is used and acquisition is stopped with run/stop.  If single trigger is used, the decoded mesages and waveforms lose alignment when time base is changed.
Got it
7)   pressing stop from normal trigger sometimes causes captured waveform to disappear.
If the waveform did not triggered, it may disappear.
8 ) Is it possible to add cursor gating to measurements??
       Can not understand. Is it means tracking mode?
9) During normal triggering screen updates are not fully cleared before updated waveform is displayed (new waveform + old waveform are shown at the same time).  Need to press stop to repaint the screen with last waveform.  Observed with I2C decoding, may or may not be related to decoding.
    This is a designing issue.

Firmware version might be an issue don?
It seems there are a couple of points Siglent want more information/clarification.
1,2,4 & 9 confirm expected behavior.
6 seems a bug, thanks.

[don]

@ don
Siglent replies to your post:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent's-new-product-msosds2000-series/msg493484/#msg493484

I think this customer did not update the firmware 35.1. please see my answer. My unit is software 35.1, hardware 5-3.  I will report to the R&D department too, but they reply me that the new version firmware will come.
1)   zoom does not work in roll mode
True
2)   zoom does not work when decoding
True
3)   cursors do not work in zoom mode
If you press cursor –track first , then press zoom, it will work, but not perfect. So it is also exist.
4)   changing time base in roll mode is centered on right edge of screen instead of center of screen (works correctly in YT mode)
most of other manufacturer do this.
5)   changing time base in roll mode (centered on right edge of screen ) works for sample size up to 1.4Mpts.  At 7Mpts and 14Mpts waveform focal points shifts off screen when time base reduction causes sample size to decrease  two steps (is 7Mpts ->2.8Mpt->1.4Mpts= fail)
I can not understand it.
6)   i2C decode only works reliably if normal trigger is used and acquisition is stopped with run/stop.  If single trigger is used, the decoded mesages and waveforms lose alignment when time base is changed.
Got it
7)   pressing stop from normal trigger sometimes causes captured waveform to disappear.
If the waveform did not triggered, it may disappear.
8 ) Is it possible to add cursor gating to measurements??
       Can not understand. Is it means tracking mode?
9) During normal triggering screen updates are not fully cleared before updated waveform is displayed (new waveform + old waveform are shown at the same time).  Need to press stop to repaint the screen with last waveform.  Observed with I2C decoding, may or may not be related to decoding.
    This is a designing issue.

Firmware version might be an issue don?
It seems there are a couple of points Siglent want more information/clarification.
1,2,4 & 9 confirm expected behavior.
6 seems a bug, thanks.

I grabbed the latest firmware (1.1.1.35.1) from the link posted on this forum.  Please provide a link if there is newer firmware.

To duplicate #5:
1. Enable all channels and set memory to 14Mpts
2. Set timebase to 100ms/div
3. Enter Roll Mode, begin acquistion
4. Stop acquisition after >1s have ellapsed
5. Find a unique narrow event on the waveform  to view up close (such as a pulse).  Use horizontal knob to move event to the right edge of the screen.
6. Begin reducing timebase ( 100ms , 50ms, 25ms, etc.)
7. Note that sample rate and memory evenrually change as time base is decreased.
8. Continue to adjust horizontal knob to keep event at the right edge of the screen as timebase is changed.
9. Eventually sample size will decrease from 14Mpts to 7Mpts , then 2.8Mpts, then 1.4Mpts.
10. At 2.8Mpts or 1.4Mpts (I forget which one) the event will jump off the screen and it will take considerable scrolling with horizontal knob to find it. 


Regarding #8
Cursor gating means to use the left and right cursor to set the waveform region used for automated measurements.
 
I'll respond to other items as well.

[tautech]

Thanks don
Siglent have been pointed to the above post.

[don]

I'm having issues on SDS2074 where some features no longer work after a period of time.

So I often have to reset to default or user setup in order to regain functionality.  For example, many times I'll be using scope and I'll be unable to enter decode menu.  A message pops up saying feature is unavailable.  Its pretty frustrating as error does not indicate why it can't enter decode menu. I suspect decode error is related to sample rate and record length or having perviously used zoom (even though no longer enabled) but am unable to reliably reproduce.

Regarding error messages in general, ideally the messages would indicate why something does not work so user can correct it.   Its fustrating to just get an error with no knowledge of how to resolve.

[Mark_O]

So I often have to reset to default or user setup in order to regain functionality.  For example, many times I'll be using scope and I'll be unable to enter decode menu.  A message pops up saying feature is unavailable.  Its pretty frustrating as error does not indicate why it can't enter decode menu. I suspect decode error is related to sample rate and record length or having perviously used zoom (even though no longer enabled) but am unable to reliably reproduce.

It wouldn't be surprising if this was a spurious state-info issue.  Some setting or flag is stuck, after having gone through various state transitions, so things no longer work.

Regarding error messages in general, ideally the messages would indicate why something does not work so user can correct it.   Its fustrating to just get an error with no knowledge of how to resolve.

I totally agree about the frustration part.  However, these may simply not even be issues where the user has done something wrong that needs to be corrected.  If there are leftover data turds, and things haven't been re-initialized properly, that's something Siglent will have to fix.  And once that's been done, these "feature unavailable" messages will go away automatically.

[don]

So I often have to reset to default or user setup in order to regain functionality.  For example, many times I'll be using scope and I'll be unable to enter decode menu.  A message pops up saying feature is unavailable.  Its pretty frustrating as error does not indicate why it can't enter decode menu. I suspect decode error is related to sample rate and record length or having perviously used zoom (even though no longer enabled) but am unable to reliably reproduce.

It wouldn't be surprising if this was a spurious state-info issue.  Some setting or flag is stuck, after having gone through various state transitions, so things no longer work.

Regarding error messages in general, ideally the messages would indicate why something does not work so user can correct it.   Its fustrating to just get an error with no knowledge of how to resolve.

I totally agree about the frustration part.  However, these may simply not even be issues where the user has done something wrong that needs to be corrected.  If there are leftover data turds, and things haven't been re-initialized properly, that's something Siglent will have to fix.  And once that's been done, these "feature unavailable" messages will go away automatically.

You are right,  but there is one "Function isn't useable" message for anything that does not work.  Such as zoom not working in roll mode or can't enter decode menu.  It would be nice if there is some context behind messages.

[Mark_O]

You are right,  but there is one "Function isn't useable" message for anything that does not work.  Such as zoom not working in roll mode or can't enter decode menu.  It would be nice if there is some context behind messages.

Ah, OK.  I take your point.  And I agree.  It is important to provide context-specific feedback, regardless of whether it's an internal malfunction, or user error.

If I were to guess, I'd say that this is a result of not having enough time/manpower, and they've cut corners to try to expedite the implementation process.  They have obviously been fighting a battle against the clock, since they announced the "release" last November.  Once all the functionality is in place, they will then have an opportunity to go back and smooth out some of the rough edges.

If definitely sounds as if this is a WIP (Work In Progress), and will continue to evolve and improve as time goes on.  While owners anxiously await the next firmware Update.    As long as Siglent remains committed to the product, and allocates development resources, there's a good chance that it will all get worked out eventually.  As long as the hardware is solid, and has no fatal flaws, the firmware may some day turn a good device into a great one.

[tautech]

You are right,  but there is one "Function isn't useable" message for anything that does not work.  Such as zoom not working in roll mode or can't enter decode menu.  It would be nice if there is some context behind messages.

Ah, OK.  I take your point.  And I agree.  It is important to provide context-specific feedback, regardless of whether it's an internal malfunction, or user error.

Or a function that was not intended.
Please offer some appropriate messages.

If I were to guess, I'd say that this is a result of not having enough time/manpower, and they've cut corners to try to expedite the implementation process. 

Since the SDS2000 was prematurely announced, there has been several other product releases, not to mention any others they have in the wind, so Siglent have their hands full bringing us new gear to test.
I hope to see some for myself with a factory visit in October.

As long as Siglent remains committed to the product, and allocates development resources, there's a good chance that it will all get worked out eventually.

And this good stream of feedback will ensure ongoing development. 

[varesa]

I've been trying to find reviews and other resources on the SDS2000. One of the few is this video

Are the knobs as flimsy as they look? That wobbling and cursor jumping is one of the few issues pushing my interest back. Most of the software bugs can be fixed with an update, broken knobs can't.

I understand the quality won't be on level with Agilent/Tek/Hameg but will it still last/work?

[nctnico]

I hope to be able to post a short review in a few days. Don't expect a video but some photo's and some screenshots.

[tautech]

It seems the norm these days that encoders wobble. I have seen Rigol owner comment on this.
It is only minor and seems not to affect their function. Disconcerting sure, but there seems to be very few stories of failures/replacements in all brands.
Firmware updates have much improved the encoder responsiveness and usability.
The Multi-function/Intensity control is also pushed to select various menu options and seems to be a criticism as in the Rigol.
The famous Rigol "knob swap" improves it.
Personally, I have tried both(with & without swap knobs) and have reverted to the original setup.
Siglent are well aware of this criticism and I wonder if Siglent will find an encoder that has a slightly softer depress function to help the "select" process in any future HW revisions.
Another operator might not consider this an issue.
As I was typing this I wondered what nctnico would think of the controls when he gets his and I'm confident his feedback will be noteworthy.

[don]

I'll give my $.02 for the Siglent SDS2000 knobs:

I thought they were fine.  The press to click felt nice, those with indentations felt nice...and the two knobs identified as wobbly knobs  were not that wobbly in my opinion. Maybe my hardware was different or I dont notice wobbly encoders.

I did not care for the spacing between intensity and trigger knobs though.  I was required to grip differently because my fingers could not fit in between. But overall I thought the mechanical design of the scope was decent.

Also, I thought scrolling through menu options with knobs worked fine. Scrolling did not seem overly sensitive.  I had latest firmware.