Siglent's new product- MSO/SDS2000 Series

[Carrington]

I had not seen, then if really have this feature and someone hack it and enable all options (included BW) then it is going to sell like hotcakes.

[rf-loop]

In DS2000 data sheet there read: Realtime Waveform Record,Replay & Analysis (Up to 65,000 frames)

I can not find segmented memory capturing.

What is this "record" function?

Edit/add: How this "record" works related to example what HP and later Agilent use when they name it segmented.

Edit/Add 2:
After reading DS2000 series user manual I can not find segmented memory capture at all.  There is time interval recorder (what have advantages that it also have time stamp and guite small shortest time interval between frames)

Guote from User manual:

Interval
Set the time interval between the frames in waveform record and the range available is from 100 ns to 10 s.

 

Do it wait trig between these segments or just new frame after this time interval?
If it wait trigger why there is time interval setting?

[rf-loop]

Looking through the SDS2000 datasheet:
(...) I see absolutely no mention of segmented memory - which is (combined with the segment analysis tool), IMO, one of the best features of the DS2000 series.

I use the 56M of deep memory most often for recording segments, and if the SDS2000 is missing that feature, I'd never consider it as a viable purchase after having had the feature.

Yes, nothing in the datasheet. But in this table from rf-loop
they say that SDS2000 has a History function. It might be similar to segmented memory. In fact, Rigol does not use the name "Segmented memory", they call it "Record" instead.

If you copy paste / quote do it right!

There read very clearly: "This table I get from Siglent and I'm not responsible if there is errors."

This table is NOT from rf-loop, this table is from Siglent and it reads in my message but you hide this information as you copy it. It is better link to original message than take apart some attachment without original  note for attachment. 

[Mark_O]

In DS2000 data sheet there read: Realtime Waveform Record,Replay & Analysis (Up to 65,000 frames)

I can not find segmented memory capturing.

That's correct.  They do not use that terminology.

What is this "record" function?

Segmented memory capturing.

Edit/add: How this "record" works related to example what HP and later Agilent use when they name it segmented.

Essentially the same.

Edit/Add 2:
After reading DS2000 series user manual I can not find segmented memory capture at all.  There is time interval recorder (what have advantages that it also have time stamp and guite small shortest time interval between frames)

Correct.  That's the problem with relying on the manuals to determine what capabilities these devices have, or do not have.  When I first read the DS2000 manual myself, I had the same misgivings as you.  I also inferred it was somewhat useless, if locked to a specific time interval.  The only way it made sense to me is if this setting was really more akin to a Holdoff interval, where it was possible to increase the interval between sample bursts, but the bursts would still be triggered by the selected condition(s).  Nothing substitutes having the device in front of you, and being able to test it and see for yourself.  And in fact, marmad specifically confirmed exactly that in one of his hundreds of comments on the DS2000. 

Guote from User manual:
"Interval
Set the time interval between the frames in waveform record and the range available is from 100 ns to 10 s."

Do it wait trig between these segments or just new frame after this time interval?
If it wait trigger why there is time interval setting?

Explained above.  By adding a Holdoff interval, it's possible to broaden the total capture time, at the expense of dropping some of the events that would otherwise have been triggered and caught.

[marmad]

Hi rf-loop.

In DS2000 data sheet there read: Realtime Waveform Record,Replay & Analysis (Up to 65,000 frames)

I can not find segmented memory capturing.

What is this "record" function?

Edit/add: How this "record" works related to example what HP and later Agilent use when they name it segmented.

Yes, the 'Record' function on the Rigol is the segmented memory function - and, from what I understand, it works more or less the same as the Agilent. Although I don't know if the lower-end Agilent's have the nice segment analysis function (with histograms  ) built-in.

Why did Rigol decide to call it 'Record'? I don't know: perhaps because they thought it would be more easy to 'sell it' as a feature - or perhaps because they had a similar feature on their older models called that - or maybe because the terminology is patented by HP (Agilent)? In any case, as Mark_O pointed out, it's not well-described in their literature.

Do it wait trig between these segments or just new frame after this time interval?
If it wait trigger why there is time interval setting?

Yes - the 'recording' of the segment (or frame, as Rigol calls it) is caused by your trigger settings. But of course, the fastest that the DSO can capture segments is always limited by the maximum wfrm/s rate. Since the DS2000 has a maximum rate of ~50k wfrm/s, it's minimum time between segments will never be shorter than ~20us + the minimum time interval setting (100ns); i.e. the re-arm time.

But you can use the time interval setting to force a wait between segment captures - so if you wanted, for example, to test the stability of a repeating signal over 24 hours, you can set the number of segments to 65000, then set the time interval to 1.33 seconds - then run the analysis tool on the captured segments the next day.

Do you know if the new SDS2000 series will have some kind of segment/record feature? It's strange that they don't mention anything of it (or the History function) in the datasheet.

[Mark_O]

Hi, marmad.  I beat you by a smidge.   

But of course, the fastest that the DSO can capture segments is always limited by the maximum wfrm/s rate. Since the DS2000 has a maximum rate of ~50k wfrm/s, it's minimum time between segments will never be shorter than 20us plus the minimum time interval setting (100ns); i.e. the rearm time.

That's a good thing to point out.  (I had also forgotten the minimum interval was 100ns as well.)  So 120ns is a best case... and it could be significantly "worse".  Of course, in many situations that's no impediment at all.

[marmad]

Hi, marmad.  I beat you by a smidge.   

  - yes, I noticed. In my defense, I started the post about an hour ago, but had to stop and finish something else. 

That's a good thing to point out.  (I had also forgotten the minimum interval was 100ns as well.)  So 120ns is a best case... and it could be significantly worse.  Of course, in many situations that's no impediment at all.

No - 20.1us is the best case. The 100ns minimum time interval is normally irrelevant when compared to the overall re-arm time.

[marmad]

That's a good thing to point out.  (I had also forgotten the minimum interval was 100ns as well.)  So 120ns is a best case... and it could be significantly "worse".  Of course, in many situations that's no impediment at all.

BTW, I did some testing when I first had the DSO, and I believe that the re-arm time can be, for the most part, CONSIDERED as ~20µs (although Rigol doesn't list this in their specs as Agilent does).


EDIT: I just looked at the Agilent 2000-X datasheet - and they used to list the re-arm time as 20µs - but, funnily, now it states:

Segmented Re-arm time= 19 µs (minimum time between trigger events)   

[rf-loop]

Yes - the 'recording' of the segment (or frame, as Rigol calls it) is caused by your trigger settings. But of course, the fastest that the DSO can capture segments is always limited by the maximum wfrm/s rate. Since the DS2000 has a maximum rate of ~50k wfrm/s, it's minimum time between segments will never be shorter than ~20us + the minimum time interval setting (100ns); i.e. the rearm time.

But you can use the time interval setting to force a wait between segment captures - so if you wanted, for example, to test the stability of a repeating signal over 24 hours, you can set the number of segments to 65000, then set the time interval to 1.33 seconds - then run the analysis tool on the captured segments the next day.

Thank you about this explanation. So, if I understanfd righ,  this interval time is something like trigger "holdoff" time and after this time period it is ready for next trig (and stay waiting until next trig).

I'm waiting more information about Siglent segmented memory acquire or what ever it is. It is better to not talk what I only believe or imagine. I hope that I know it after one month when I can ( perhaps) run real lab tests.

In some old HP user manual there is quite good explanation about (old time) segmented acquire mode. Very often old manuals are far better than today manuals. (not always)

[marmad]

Thank you about this explanation. So, if I understanfd righ,  this interval time is something like trigger "holdoff" time and after this time period it is ready for next trig (and stay waiting until next trig).

Yes, exactly. Unfortunately, Rigol using the terms 'record' and 'frame' just causes confusion - since when you record with a camera, the only thing separating frames is time (not an extra added 'event' - i.e. trigger).

I'm waiting more information about Siglent segmented memory acquire or what ever it is. It is better to not talk what I only believe or imagine. I believe that I know it after one month when I can ( read: I hope I can) run real lab tests.

I'll be interested to hear more. The SDS2000 line looks very interesting (especially the 4-channel versions versus the DS4000 - which is overpriced, IMO). It's good to see more Chinese manufacturers starting to produce quality products; the competition will be good.

In some old HP user manual there is quite good explanation about (old time) segmented acquire mode. Very often old manuals are far better than today manuals. (not always)

Very true.

[Mark_O]

That's a good thing to point out.  (I had also forgotten the minimum interval was 100ns as well.)  So 120ns is a best case... and it could be significantly worse.  Of course, in many situations that's no impediment at all.

No - 20.1us is the best case. The 100ns minimum time interval is normally irrelevant when compared to the overall re-arm time.

Whups!  Yes, you're right.  Doh.  (and thanks)

[Carrington]

Thank you about this explanation. So, if I understanfd righ,  this interval time is something like trigger "holdoff" time and after this time period it is ready for next trig (and stay waiting until next trig).

Yes, exactly. Unfortunately, Rigol using the terms 'record' and 'frame' just causes confusion - since when you record with a camera, the only thing separating frames is time (not an extra added 'event' - i.e. trigger).

I'm waiting more information about Siglent segmented memory acquire or what ever it is. It is better to not talk what I only believe or imagine. I believe that I know it after one month when I can ( read: I hope I can) run real lab tests.

I'll be interested to hear more. The SDS2000 line looks very interesting (especially the 4-channel versions versus the DS4000 - which is overpriced, IMO). It's good to see more Chinese manufacturers starting to produce quality products; the competition will be good.

In some old HP user manual there is quite good explanation about (old time) segmented acquire mode. Very often old manuals are far better than today manuals. (not always)

Very true.

Strongly agree.
But I want to add (to chinese manufacturers): please, specify in detail all the features.
Although I doubt that they will do. LOL...

[Mark_O]

I'll be interested to hear more. The SDS2000 line looks very interesting (especially the 4-channel versions versus the DS4000 - which is overpriced, IMO). It's good to see more Chinese manufacturers starting to produce quality products; the competition will be good.

I agree with this.  I like the look of the new SDS2000 4-channel model.  Clean control layout.  They've also done a nice job with on-screen display of mixed mode data, similar to Agilent.  Whereas Rigol 2000 just overlays the Event Table on top of the signals.  (One of my relatively few complaints about them.)

I'm looking forward to seeing what the pricing is like.

[Hydrawerk]

The SDS2000 line looks very interesting (especially the 4-channel versions versus the DS4000 - which is overpriced,

I am not sure, it has 2GS/s per each channe, those ADCs are still expensive. And no other scope at this category has 140MB memory. This powerful hardware cannot be cheap. It's not an entry level scope...
http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/ds4000/
Edit: I made it more clear...

[Herman]

why did no people notice the specification "sequence" in the table?
Lecroy explained the "sequence" as this:Sequence Mode allows you to partition your acquisition memory into segments and capture specific events over long periods of time. Then, view and analyze each segment individually.
So I think siglent used the same vocabulary as Lecroy. Sequence should means segments memory.

[tautech]

why did no people notice the specification "sequence" in the table?
Lecroy explained the "sequence" as this:Sequence Mode allows you to partition your acquisition memory into segments and capture specific events over long periods of time. Then, view and analyze each segment individually.
So I think siglent used the same vocabulary as Lecroy. Sequence should means segments memory.

Good spotting, however no mention of it in the datasheet, unless its disguised as some other spec.

[rf-loop]

I am not sure, it has 2GS/s per each channe, those ADCs are still expensive. And no other scope at this category has 140MB memory. This powerful hardware cannot be cheap. It's not an entry level scope...

No, it do not have 2GS/s for all channels simultaneously.

There is 2 groups.
CH1 and CH2  2GSa/s for 1channel and 1GSa/s for both simultaneously.
CH3 and CH4  2GSa/s for 1channel and 1GSa/s for both simultaneously.
So, it can use 2GSa/s for 2 channels in use and 1GSa/s for all channels.
(I do not know if it can use 2Gsa/s + 1GSa/s + 1GSa/s (I hope it is)  but then 2GSa/s + 2GSa/s is possible, also 1GSa/s + 1GSa/s +1GSa/s + 1GSa/s )


My suspect is that they have used 2 pcs something like ADC08D1000  (or its later improved versions.)

[Herman]

I just got the main board picture of SDS2000 and I can only see a word 'FPGA'.

I am not sure, it has 2GS/s per each channe, those ADCs are still expensive. And no other scope at this category has 140MB memory. This powerful hardware cannot be cheap. It's not an entry level scope...

No, it do not have 2GS/s for all channels simultaneously.

There is 2 groups.
CH1 and CH2  2GSa/s for 1channel and 1GSa/s for both simultaneously.
CH3 and CH4  2GSa/s for 1channel and 1GSa/s for both simultaneously.
So, it can use 2GSa/s for 2 channels in use and 1GSa/s for all channels.
(I do not know if it can use 2Gsa/s + 1GSa/s + 1GSa/s (I hope it is)  but then 2GSa/s + 2GSa/s is possible, also 1GSa/s + 1GSa/s +1GSa/s + 1GSa/s )


My suspect is that they have used 2 pcs something like ADC08D1000  (or its later improved versions.)

[tinhead]

that looks good, 128pin ADC will be something proper (maybe even overclocked, like on Instek, ADC08D500 or an real ADC08D1020) and not that crap RuiFeng MXTxxxx ADCs used by Rigol (and Owon before Rigol bought all that RuiFeng can produce). Another good sign, lot of caps, it looks that Siglent finally stopped to remove important parts to reduce the price.

[Nermash]

that looks good, 128pin ADC will be something proper (maybe even overclocked, like on Instek, ADC08D500 or an real ADC08D1020) and not that crap RuiFeng MXTxxxx ADCs used by Rigol (and Owon before Rigol bought all that RuiFeng can produce). Another good sign, lot of caps, it looks that Siglent finally stopped to remove important parts to reduce the price.

Why do you think that RuiFeng ADCs are crap? I was under the impression that it is quite a good clone, especially when Rigol decided to use them in their new products.

[Hydrawerk]

The Siglent mainboard is quite overcrowded with stuff. Why are there so many relays? Are they used in the function generator? Just for comparison, I post here Dave's photo of MSOX2000 mainboard. For some reasons Agilent does not use many capacitors...
Well, I would like to see the SDS2000 in action, i expect that it is a good scope.

[tinhead]

The Siglent mainboard is quite overcrowded with stuff. Why are there so many relays?

there must be reason for that, as long the DSO works as expected, who cares. They seems not to be directly in signal path, so that would be for sure not a "click/clack symphony" on each every knob step (as on Rigol DS5000/Atten ADS7000/Tekway DST1100 5yrs go)^^.

[tinhead]

Why do you think that RuiFeng ADCs are crap?

i trust more National/TI than RuiFeng and even without any test (on paper) RuiFeng is worse than National/TI.
Simply check datasheet (and think bit about who needs here more to make numbers bit better than they really are):

SNR at 498MHz input signal - RuiFeng 38dB, National/TI 45dB
INL RuiFeng typical ±1.0 LSB, max not even specified, National/TI ±0.3 (Max ±0.9)

and so on.

I was under the impression that it is quite a good clone, especially when Rigol decided to use them in their new products.

But why do you think Rigol give a shit about anything else than money? No question, Rigol did good step forward with the DS2/4/6 series (and forced other to stop selling years old crap technology and to design/release new gears - so yeah, good for us) but they for sure not "extremely low noise floor", or wait this one is even better, "exceptionally low noise floor" (source: newequipment.com) nor they "state of the art technology" manufacturer, so really, no need to think something must be good because Rigol make use of it in their gears.

[Hydrawerk]

(...)Rigol did good step forward with the DS2/4/6 series (and forced other to stop selling years old crap technology and to design/release new gears - so yeah, good for us) (...)

Well, Tektronix does not care and still sells old technology... 

[grego]

And there's a reason why I finally said "heck with it" and spent the money on an Agilent 3000X instead.  I got worn down by trying to figure out which is "best".

All this gear looks pretty and new and shiny when it first comes out.  Then once people get their hands on it the warts start to show up.  Doesn't matter WHICH manufacturer it is.