Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"

[PlainName]

If you want to keep on focusing on the OP, go ahead.

I don't think he has to ask your permission to do that, and I'm pretty sure he'll continue anyway

[EEVblog]

Having said that, the lack of ANY second hand Siglent stuff on ebay concerned me and if they are rigging ebay that way then it is seriously bad form.

There is zero evidence for this. Zip, ziltch, narda.

I did think however that maybe the Siglent stuff is so good perhaps everyone who owns it just holds on to it?

Most likely.
Other reasons like maybe they don't think they can get much for it, because it's a Siglent, so they don't bother. Not many people are going to fighting tooth and nail on ebay to bid for a Siglent.
Chicken and egg thing. Search ebay for Siglent, nothing, no price history etc, so odds of it being popular are not good so you don't bother.
Someone just sold this one no problems:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Siglent-SDS2204-200-Mhz-4-Ch-DSO-2-GSa-s-Mint-In-Box-/331665463703?hash=item4d38cd5997:g:q3wAAOSwhAZWBrDK

I think a lot of us hobbyists are kinda hoarders and so if we paid full whack we hold onto it, especially as we know the history of our own stuff. The plethora of big name stuff on the second hand market is mostly due to commercial disposals and volume (and great deals compared to astronomical MRPs)

Correct. That has not happened to Siglent gear yet, it's not old enough.

[EEVblog]

Did we watch different interviews? Mister YOLO confirmed they have been issuing fraudulent EBAY takedowns claiming counterfeit equipment for TWO YEARS now. Should be no distinction between new or used, equipment is NOT counterfeit, they claim it is to FIX PRICES. CEO, US Distributor and Siglent account (whose posts mysteriously got deleted later from this thread) all confirmed it. They ALL said they do it to fight competition.

Do not put words into his mouth. He said nothing about counterfeits.
He said they have been actively looking for authorised dealers who are secretly selling on ebay worldwide, and hence outside of their designated area.
And that a new keen employee made a mistake in this case.
Nothing more than that.

[rx8pilot]

If you want to keep on focusing on the OP, go ahead.

I don't think he has to ask your permission to do that, and I'm pretty sure he'll continue anyway

He is a fixer, he has to focus on the dirt.

RobertBG and his sidekick make some valid points and I still don't care. I don't care about the OP, his tactics, or anything other than how Siglent responded. I don't believe that this was the actions of a single person going rogue. I think it is an internal SOP. Why? Mainly because of the way the CEO responded in his interview? I only need a 'hunch' to believe this. I don't and won't send a demand for legal discovery and launch and international investigation. I have personally been burned by Chinese companies so I admit that I treat them with extreme caution until they prove that they are reliable and trustworthy. My own designs and products have bee ripped off in addition to many of the people that I have contracted for.

All I am saying is that the CEO had a chance. He used that chance to tell us that they have to do these things (my interpretation). At the volume they deal with, the right thing to do if they think there is a bad egg in the distribution chain is to ask questions and figure out what is going on. The heavy hand approach sets them back years for me. So a few people sell things on eBay against the company policy? Figure out who they are and start a dialog. Either the policy is flawed or they have identified a hole in the system that should be patched in the future.

They dropped the hammer first and asked questions later. I am not talking about the low level mis-informed undertrained person that initiated the eBay complaint, I am talking about the company. If the CEO took any responsibility at all and gave me any impression that he would consider changing a secret iron fist enforcement policy - I would give them the benefit of the doubt.

You can call me crazy, idiotic, whatever - but there are too many options to bother dealing with a business that I am not 100% with. I also don't have time to dedicate a team to investigate so I have to go on my gut feelings.

[PlainName]

I don't care about the OP, his tactics, or anything other than how Siglent responded. I don't believe that this was the actions of a single person going rogue. I think it is an internal SOP. Why? Mainly because of the way the CEO responded in his interview? I only need a 'hunch' to believe this. I don't and won't send a demand for legal discovery and launch and international investigation.

This may come as a surprise to you, but we already figured you are not impressed and aren't going to change your mind. So why do you keep banging on? Do you feel you have to convert each and every other contributor to this thread to your exact same viewpoint? If you can have a position based on nothing more than a hunch, why can't anyone else? And if they choose to look a bit closer into stuff and come to a different conclusion to you, why should that matter to you at all?

Now, I have similarly made up my mind (kind of - I could be persuaded differently, but I would need a jolly good and solid argument to do so). I don't care what you or anyone else believes, only what I have figured out to my satisfaction. But... I still chip in here and there. How is this different to what I just said above? Essentially, I am likely to butt in to point out errors of fact (because those things have a tendency to propagate and have other people believe then as true).

I think this is what RobertBG et al. are doing too: pointing out the discrepencies in expressed beliefs. You could do the same, citing examinable evidence, but if you can't be bothered I think you've made your opinion clear enough that it doesn't need repeating every page or so.

[electrolust]

MiguelVP,

The simple fact remains that he listed it as a new product when it was used.The disclaimer does not absolve him of this issue no matter how hard you try to argue your point.Please go read the Ebay terms of service before arguing any further.

Had he not Misrepresented it Siglent would have never bothered with his listing.

Probably true.  That doesn't excuse Siglent from their bad, illegal behavior.  (That's not to say I believe they should be dragged over the coals for it, just that OSTC's actions do not create an excuse for Siglent.)

You go on to argue about price fixing,yet you you're quite ignorant to things.Every company is allowed to set a minimum advertised price or MAP and they are within their rights to take some actions against people selling below the min advertised pricing that they've set for their products.

OK you are either a troll or a shill for sure.

Anyone that would take the effort, and has the chops to do so quite adequately, to research OP and drag him through the mud, also has the IQ to understand the issue here.  Your clever diversion here cannot just be thickheadedness on your part.

Yes of course MAP is legal and yes of course the mfr has a right to pursue it.  But they do not have the right to file illegal trademark claims.

Usually they will stop selling to them,hence why they asked for the serial number.

Totally legit.  Therefore Siglent should have just posed as a buyer and asked for a photo of the serial number.  Not filed a fraudulent notice.

Goodbye, troll.

[rx8pilot]

I think this is what RobertBG et al. are doing too: pointing out the discrepencies in expressed beliefs. You could do the same, citing examinable evidence, but if you can't be bothered I think you've made your opinion clear enough that it doesn't need repeating every page or so.

The reason I am a skipping record is because the rest of the thread is. I have no care or intention of changing anyone's mind. The demand for facts and links and demonstrable proof continues. All I am doing is offering up the reality is that buying decisions are NOT made in a courtroom, the are made in the mind of the people buying. It's driven by the emotional component.

RobertBG and his sidekick came in and stirred a pot of old stew with some completely bizarre motivation. The topic is old and it is a little late to turn it into a research project. We are talking about cheap low-end stuff here, so why would I waste my time re-reading 60+ pages of internet ranting and analysis? I would guess that only a small minority would bother. If we were talking about real money, it wold make more sense but this stuff is not even worth the time I spent typing so far.

For as long as the thread repeats, I don't see any reason that I should avoid repeating my views as well.

EDIT: I don't think that RobrtBG is wrong in anything said so far. It's the focus on the origination/cause of the dispute that seems silly.

[donotdespisethesnake]

Clearly, Siglent are manipulating prices and falsely issuing trademark infringement notices, both of which quite illegal. No two ways about it. I won't be touching any of their products with a barge pole.

Since they admitted doing these things, defending them is madness. There is no way it was a simple mistake! So I think we also need to be wary of influential bloggers who have links with manufacturers.

Thanks to the OP for bringing this to public attention.

[Macbeth]

Having said that, the lack of ANY second hand Siglent stuff on ebay concerned me and if they are rigging ebay that way then it is seriously bad form.

There is zero evidence for this. Zip, ziltch, narda.

Totally. I also did a search for Rigol stuff and found sweet bugger all on the second hand ebay market too. I imagine buyers and sellers would find better deals on stuff like this without the combined ebay and paypal tax on the likes of EEVBlog Buy Sell Wanted. Indeed I believe OP actually sold his Siglent there and not on ebay, so I was wondering what it's all about with OP, but he has a commercial trading account with a lot of goodwill built up and if that is affected by a blacklisting then I am totally on board with him.

Having said that, I don't see any evidence that ebay pulling a dead auction actually would have affected his seller status anyway.

BTW Dave, has your mislabelled (by ebay specs) Used "as-is" 'scope been returned at your cost or did you have it returned to someone closer to the "customer" for subsequent EEVblog teardown and analysis, and better yet not let a scamster get away his ill gotten gains? 

[Simon]

The reason I am a skipping record is because the rest of the thread is.

Any thread past 10 pages is, it's like the FTDI thread, I read through it all until about page 90 as it was as electrified as this one and had many moderation complaints, and yes that one went round in circles and so has this (about every 10 pages it came back to the beginning), I think i have read most of it.

Fact is (yep saying this for the third time) is that all companies will have people scouring ebay to check for misuse of their name, even bloody epson on someone selling second hand new compatible cartridges on a personal account like me for a few pence....., Most companies are ruthless in protecting their name and I'm sure do it as cheaply as possible with low paid/new staff. On the one hand it is perfectly legitimate for them to do this, but on the other they can go out of hand and it looks like this one did too. I don't know how involved the process is with ebay but ebay do not give a toss about sellers and will fawn all over buyers and the big manufacturers that can sue them badly, the seller comes last, so the slightest complaint from a buyer or large company will provocate an over the top reaction from ebay in respec tof the seller in the first instance anyway.

In this case i think it was reasonable that Siglent contact the seller and do some ground work before busting a gut over it, it's not like ebay is flooded with siglent gear that needs looking into and it's probably because it's cheap stuff and people who buy it tend to keep it till it breaks and they can afford the next version of cheap equipment.

[bson]

The goal is not to get anyone arrested (which won't happen), or put anyone out of business, but to get them to end their practices.  Also nothing wrong with a good old-fashioned public shaming!  I think I'm inclined to believe tautech when he says it looks like an accident from his inside perspective, but then I also know channel partners get explicit communication by their sales managers and aren't privvy to internal discussions.  But it doesn't matter if it's accidental or not as long as it stops.  I have absolutely no qualms buying Siglent gear since it's pretty clear they have in fact come to a hard stop on this.

Now Future Tech on the other hand... we need an open source alternative to them, including drivers for common operating systems.  Those guys I won't touch with a ten-foot pole.

[tautech]

The goal is not to get anyone arrested (which won't happen), or put anyone out of business, but to get them to end their practices.  Also nothing wrong with a good old-fashioned public shaming!  I think I'm inclined to believe tautech when he says it looks like an accident from his inside perspective, but then I also know channel partners get explicit communication by their sales managers and aren't privvy to internal discussions.  But it doesn't matter if it's accidental or not as long as it stops.  I have absolutely no qualms buying Siglent gear since it's pretty clear they have in fact come to a hard stop on this.

Now Future Tech on the other hand... we need an open source alternative to them, including drivers for common operating systems.  Those guys I won't touch with a ten-foot pole.

@bson
Thanks for taking the time to consider ALL points of view, and I will add that my communications with Siglent extend beyond my sales manager and across continents for insider info.
I feel very fortunate to have this relationship with Siglent and to be able to be involved with them as much as I am. For a few changes that I've lobbied for to be implented in existing and new products has been my reward. In the short time I've been distributing their products there have been many positive changes excluding this "speed bump" of course.
I know of no other TE company that can provide the levels of support we can in the way of Siglent's and a few dealers like myself presence on this forum.
Despite all that has happened recently, this support we offer is our ace card.

[vk6zgo]

Whether Siglent have the right to try to prevent people selling their stuff at less than the recommended retail price,or whether the OP advertised it as "new" or "used" is not the point.

Without any evidence,they claimed the OP's instrument was counterfeit,in order to have it removed from sale.

When they were called on it,they blamed a "new employee".
This is not common business practice in the rest of the world------companies usually "take it on the chin" as an organisation & don't try to sheet the blame home to someone at a lower level.

Imagine if  MacDonald's did something wrong,& the company tried to shift the blame to a junior staff member.
The media would eat them alive!

People making gadgets for "geeks" are not subject to the same intense scrutiny,but the principle still applies.

Amateur Radio suppliers are in a similar position,small market,"geeks",etc.,with the authorised dealers bedevilled by a plethora of "grey imports",as well as direct Internet purchases.

They say they won't do warranty service on " non-official" radios,& that the "grey" imports are really "secondhand",but they do not make the "counterfeit" claim.

[madires]

Whether Siglent have the right to try to prevent people selling their stuff at less than the recommended retail price,or whether the OP advertised it as "new" or "used" is not the point.

Without any evidence,they claimed the OP's instrument was counterfeit,in order to have it removed from sale.

Exactly this! The point is that Siglent commited willfully multiple offenses to reach their goal. They admitted that several times and tried to play it down with the "new and unexperienced employee" story. An offense is an offense! It can't be undone with an excuse! There is absolutely no point in discussing if the OP might be a not so nice guy or talking down facts. If something like that happens to me I'd would file an official report immediately. I'm pretty sure I won't buy any Siglent product for quite a while. And the PR stunt is simply disgusting. Sorry for the harsh words, but they had to be said. Don't be naive and use your grey little brain cells!

[nctnico]

I know of no other TE company that can provide the levels of support we can in the way of Siglent's and a few dealers like myself presence on this forum.
Despite all that has happened recently, this support we offer is our ace card.

That may be but other TE companies have their own support channels. I have some second (third) hand HP/Agilent/Keysight equipment but Keysight is never reluctant to answer questions I have or find out which replacement parts I need for the particular model I have. The support people also speak/write my language. From the forum's perspective that support goes unnoticed but it is definitely there!

[RobertBG]

Actually I was under the impression OP listed as Used but "as new" or "mint". It appears he advertised it as "New - other" which explains it may be missing a box or such but not used in any way, and I would expect also comes with a full warranty. Also, he listed it under a commercial trading account, not a Joe Bloggs getting rid of his stuff. I can fully understand how Siglent had him marked as an unauthorised trader. OP also states he thinks the product is really good and he is only upgrading to the next model up because he is so impressed with the Siglent. If that is the case then it has clearly been pretty well used, surely?

Having said that, the lack of ANY second hand Siglent stuff on ebay concerned me and if they are rigging ebay that way then it is seriously bad form. I did think however that maybe the Siglent stuff is so good perhaps everyone who owns it just holds on to it?  A second hand market needs to be made for this stuff. I think a lot of us hobbyists are kinda hoarders and so if we paid full whack we hold onto it, especially as we know the history of our own stuff. The plethora of big name stuff on the second hand market is mostly due to commercial disposals and volume (and great deals compared to astronomical MRPs)

OldSchool' got a really good deal out of this with the free handheld scope. Now I don't think he deserved it 

At least somebody see's this for what it truly is.

Call me what you want as you have done plenty already but the fact remains this guys behavior is a large part of what is wrong with today's society.A lot of you guys need to take a long hard look in the mirror for defending this guy so vehemently,not me.If thinking that I'm a paid shill or any of the other unfounded claims helps you sleep better at night then by all means go ahead.You all helped to reward a behavior that is a true problem in society and refuse to see or admit it.

I have said it before,I have nothing to do with Siglent or anyone or anything else involved and could give a rats ass about them.I even made a bet with my end of the proceeds going to Dave and charity to prove otherwise that everyone conveniently glossed over.I'd be happy to raise it a few figures if you want to try and make some money.............seriously name the amount $1-$10,000 with 20% going to Dave and the rest to charity from my proceeds.

I also find it funny how so many of you resorted to attacks to defend this guy yet I am not allowed to defend myself from attacks and god forbid I fight back,I'm ostracized for it.Whats even funnier is that the ones quoting things now that I said after getting defensive where the ones who started slinging the mud earlier when they had no answers to FACTS. 

I mentioned a attorney's use in matters and was attacked for this yet when I showed evidence of this guy threatening to sue in rants all over the net I'm the bad guy for digging up dirt on him.    Trust me it only took googling this brainiacs SN to find numerous scams tied to him,but once again I guess this isn't a valid point in showing that someone wrongfully and illegally spammed and blackmailed a company for free gear. 

I could go on and on but it is very clear that you will continue to ignore the facts because you dont want to admit that you where duped and played like a fool here.

The quote from  Eldridge Cleaver  'There is no more neutrality in the world. You either have to be part of the solution, or you're going to be part of the problem.'  truly fits here 

[Zero999]

At least somebody see's this for what it truly is.

Call me what you want as you have done plenty already but the fact remains this guys behavior is a large part of what is wrong with today's society.A lot of you guys need to take a long hard look in the mirror for defending this guy so vehemently,not me.If thinking that I'm a paid shill or any of the other unfounded claims helps you sleep better at night then by all means go ahead.You all helped to reward a behavior that is a true problem in society and refuse to see or admit it.

I have said it before,I have nothing to do with Siglent or anyone or anything else involved and could give a rats ass about them.I even made a bet with my end of the proceeds going to Dave and charity to prove otherwise that everyone conveniently glossed over.I'd be happy to raise it a few figures if you want to try and make some money.............seriously name the amount $1-$10,000 with 20% going to Dave and the rest to charity from my proceeds.

I also find it funny how so many of you resorted to attacks to defend this guy yet I am not allowed to defend myself from attacks and god forbid I fight back,I'm ostracized for it.Whats even funnier is that the ones quoting things now that I said after getting defensive where the ones who started slinging the mud earlier when they had no answers to FACTS. 

I mentioned a attorney's use in matters and was attacked for this yet when I showed evidence of this guy threatening to sue in rants all over the net I'm the bad guy for digging up dirt on him.    Trust me it only took googling this brainiacs SN to find numerous scams tied to him,but once again I guess this isn't a valid point in showing that someone wrongfully and illegally spammed and blackmailed a company for free gear. 

I could go on and on but it is very clear that you will continue to ignore the facts because you dont want to admit that you where duped and played like a fool here.

The quote from  Eldridge Cleaver  'There is no more neutrality in the world. You either have to be part of the solution, or you're going to be part of the problem.'  truly fits here 

You must realise why you've received such a hostile response here when your first post on this site attacked the original poster and was in defence of Siglent.

I'm glad you posted here to give people all the facts, including the OPs trading history.

I still believe Siglent did wrong when they claimed the item was fake. I take your point that it may have been incorrectly described but if that was the case then Siglent should have filed a claim based on that, rather than claiming it was fake.

[usagi]

I still believe Siglent did wrong when they claimed the item was fake.

what gets me is that even after acknowledging that it was not counterfeit, they demanded he raise the price.

[Rasz]

I still believe Siglent did wrong when they claimed the item was fake.

what gets me is that even after acknowledging that it was not counterfeit, they demanded he raise the price.

Yep. It was very poorly handled. After getting caught red handed and dragged thru coals over ~first 20 pages of this thread Siglent America Steve pops in and keeps lying about counterfeit units, to finally come clean 4 hours later admitting it just good old price fixing, but its all ok because they thought it was one of their distributors. 

I am still unclear how to make sure second hand Siglent gear I might want to buy has any warranty coverage. I dont mean funny US one month token support. I mean proper EU 2 year minimum warranty.
http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees/

[PlainName]

I mean proper EU 2 year minimum warranty.

That comes from whoever you bought it off. If that was a dodgy Ebay vendor in China then good luck - it's between you and hime, and since you imported it to the EU it's basically your problem. If you bought from a EU vendor (grey or pukka) then it's them.

I guess you /could/ send it to the Siglent factory, but you'll be paying shipping.

Regardless of what the likes of Keysight and Fluke might do, if you didn't  buy it from the official EU distributor, they're under no obligation to provide warranty services. They might offer to do so from the goodness of their hearts, but since the rules are that your supplier is responsible, there is nothing to pin on them.

Hope that clears up a few misconceptions 

[RobertBG]

I still believe Siglent did wrong when they claimed the item was fake.

what gets me is that even after acknowledging that it was not counterfeit, they demanded he raise the price.

I think you fail to realize that he was using a  Ebay store account and any company with a MAP for their products (pick one you love dearly and I'll show you it probably applies to them) can and will enforce a commercial trader selling a NEW PRODUCT to raise the price above MAP or hide the price until the purchaser puts it in a basket.I'm sorry folks this is not price fixing no matter how much you care to believe that it is.

Here it is straight from Ebay's policy "Sellers have the right to set their own prices independently, but some manufacturers place restrictions on how those prices may be displayed or communicated to others. Because the seller's price on some items may be below the manufacturer's minimum advertised price, the manufacturer may not allow the seller to show you the seller's lower price until you take further action, such as clicking on a drop down menu, placing the item in your cart, or proceeding to checkout. The steps required depend on the terms set by the manufacturer's policy. Taking these steps allows us to show you the seller's great price, consistent with eBay's goal of always bringing consumers like you the lowest possible prices on the widest selection of products."

If you dont like it go after Ebay or dont deal on Ebay This is a Ebay policy that they use to pad their pockets,yet you are blaming Siglent because someone didnt give you all the facts.

[electrolust]

If you dont like it go after Ebay or dont deal on Ebay This is a Ebay policy that they use to pad their pockets,yet you are blaming Siglent because someone didnt give you all the facts.

Still attempting to divert attention, lol.  No one is buying it!!!

[RobertBG]

I still believe Siglent did wrong when they claimed the item was fake.

what gets me is that even after acknowledging that it was not counterfeit, they demanded he raise the price.

I am still unclear how to make sure second hand Siglent gear I might want to buy has any warranty coverage. I dont mean funny US one month token support. I mean proper EU 2 year minimum warranty.
http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees/

Good luck getting the 2 years on anything second hand in the EU    Generally though it is on the shoulders of the Shop you get it from and not the manufacturer.If you buy it from a person and expect the warranty you are out of luck because only the original purchaser is covered in this case.People always wonder why things in the EU cost so much more and this is a big part why

 As a distributor for a few aftermarket automotive products we factor in warranty costs into our pricing structure.Rarely do we depend on manufactures to keep our customers happy although most of the companies I deal with generally have no issues crediting us for replacements although some wont for the full 2 years.Those items just end up costing you more and yet again I'm the bad guy because we have to factor these costs into a pricing.
We do also import quite a bit of second hand stuff at times but when selling in the EU we only have to offer 1 year as long as the customer knows but again this is also factored into the pricing.

If you really want to find some cheap stuff in the EU try and find discontinued models on Ebay and such.We'll keep a stock of replacements for everything we sell in our warehouse.Usually around 3% of our yearly sales totals. After the warranty period we'll dump these through trade shows and Ebay very cheap although we"re trying to get away from Ebay's headaches.

[kaz911]

I still believe Siglent did wrong when they claimed the item was fake.

what gets me is that even after acknowledging that it was not counterfeit, they demanded he raise the price.

I think you fail to realize that he was using a  Ebay store account and any company with a MAP for their products (pick one you love dearly and I'll show you it probably applies to them) can and will enforce a commercial trader selling a NEW PRODUCT to raise the price above MAP or hide the price until the purchaser puts it in a basket.I'm sorry folks this is not price fixing no matter how much you care to believe that it is.

Here it is straight from Ebay's policy "Sellers have the right to set their own prices independently, but some manufacturers place restrictions on how those prices may be displayed or communicated to others. Because the seller's price on some items may be below the manufacturer's minimum advertised price, the manufacturer may not allow the seller to show you the seller's lower price until you take further action, such as clicking on a drop down menu, placing the item in your cart, or proceeding to checkout. The steps required depend on the terms set by the manufacturer's policy. Taking these steps allows us to show you the seller's great price, consistent with eBay's goal of always bringing consumers like you the lowest possible prices on the widest selection of products."

If you dont like it go after Ebay or dont deal on Ebay This is a Ebay policy that they use to pad their pockets,yet you are blaming Siglent because someone didnt give you all the facts.

Dear RobertBG - you are interpreting eBay rules as you want to - and MAP does not apply to people or companies who do not have a contractual engagement about sales and MAP with the OEM (at least according to the US Government)

[RobertBG]

Ebay's policy "Sellers have the right to set their own prices independently, but some manufacturers place restrictions on how those prices may be displayed or communicated to others. Because the seller's price on some items may be below the manufacturer's minimum advertised price, the manufacturer may not allow the seller to show you the seller's lower price until you take further action, such as clicking on a drop down menu, placing the item in your cart, or proceeding to checkout. The steps required depend on the terms set by the manufacturer's policy. Taking these steps allows us to show you the seller's great price, consistent with eBay's goal of always bringing consumers like you the lowest possible prices on the widest selection of products."


If you dont like it go after Ebay or dont deal on Ebay This is a Ebay policy that they use to pad their pockets,yet you are blaming Siglent because someone didnt give you all the facts.

Still attempting to divert attention, lol.  No one is buying it!!!

Actually it was a fact that you dont want to admit or even quote but whatever 

I still dont understand how you can defend someone so vehemently who was proven to be wrong.I mean I'm wondering who I should do this too so I can get some free test gear