Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"

[miguelvp]

The CEO fly's out to visit a blogger in Australia to apologise,

My recollection is this is not true. The "blogger" said the CEO was on business to meet with someone else who just happened to be in the area, and kindly accepted the "blogger" invite for a talk.

Also, the visit was prearranged before any of this happened.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-826-siglent-ceo-eric-qin-visits-the-eevblog-lab/msg812741/#msg812741

From Dave: Eric knows this, which is why he came all the way to Australia just to meet me (no other itinerary, he flew back the next morning). 

Yes that's true, but the visit was announced back on  September 21st, a whole month before this situation started.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-797-siglent-sds1000x-review/msg760268/#msg760268

FYI, none other than the Siglent CEO will be visiting the EEVblog lab in December.
Siglent fanboys can get their questions ready.

[all_repair]

Regarding localised distributors: with a common European market, Ebay, Aliexpress, etc the whole idea of dividing the world between distributors is old style thinking. People trying to hold on to that model probably have no way to distinguish themselves from others so need to resort to protecting their 'livelyhood' with dubious methods.

Two decades ago semiconductor manufacturers had specific distributors for each area. Nowadays everybody sells almost all the brands.

You may be right.  But I want to believe that they are smarter than me, and know more than what I know, and have their own game plan as they are at the frontline fighting the real battle while I am keying on my handphone.   At this state, they may have resources constraint, language constraints, etc etc.  But using distri at the beginning state to know a market cannot be totally wrong, and distri shall ask for protection for the efforts and expenditure in serving and opening up the market.  Siglent I do not think is big enough to dictate yet. 

[RobertBG]

...
Seriously theres plenty of facts to show what this tool did.
...
sleaze bag
...
Rather then look into facts most here would rather throw out unfounded accusations and resort to name calling. 

And calling me a troll is name calling as well.

You are still focused on the OP, the reason this thread is relevant to this community but apparently not you, was the wrongful filing by Siglent, claiming the product on Ebay was a counterfeit item which obviously was not. Adding a strike to the seller (regardless on who he is, because it could have been anyone here upgrading their equipment) for selling counterfeit equipment.

Siglent giving him the freebie was to compensate him for putting him through the hassle of a wrongful trademark claim on ebay.

That is what is relevant to me.

I took the high road until I was drug through the mud and attacked relentlessly for pointing out SIMPLE facts.Facts that have yet to be proven wrong.

This stunk like BS from the start so I decided to look a little further because you guys ostracized anyone who said anything other then lets lynch this company.

He listed  it as "NEW OTHER"He misrepresented the item plain and simple.............the rest is what ensued afterwards from his mistake and he realized that he could capitalize on it.

[rx8pilot]

I have only focused on how Siglent has responded. There is no way for me to understand the motives of the OP. I dont even care.

Signents responses were sufficient to put them on my no fly list. If this was all about outright lies, they could have solved that with a quick and public response. But they handled the whole thing poorly.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

[mackek2]

Regarding localised distributors: with a common European market, Ebay, Aliexpress, etc the whole idea of dividing the world between distributors is old style thinking. People trying to hold on to that model probably have no way to distinguish themselves from others so need to resort to protecting their 'livelyhood' with dubious methods.

Two decades ago semiconductor manufacturers had specific distributors for each area. Nowadays everybody sells almost all the brands.

Except there would be no market in China for their products if they did not have regional distribution. If they had one price that they sold to all distributors it would be way too high in some markets and way too low in other markets. Do you think tequipment would have many sales if they were drastically undercut by Chinese distributors? No. But what happens when your scope breaks and you need support? You don't want to wait months to ship it to china for it to be fixed. You want to send it to someone locally so you can have it back quicker. But guess what? Those local support people probably get paid more money than the chinese competitors. You know, living wages and what not. Sure, companies who make products targeting the higher end who have larger margins could probably swing it, but how much profit do you think there is in a $500 100mhtz 1GS scope (which is the price through an authorized dealer)? Grey market sellers often don't pay import/customs taxes either, which 1) is illegal 2) gives them an additional unfair advantage. This is economics 101 stuff.

EDIT: I don't know if they do repairs locally or not. It was an example. The point is that costs are higher in some regions and low margin products need to reflect that in their price.

[mackek2]

I have only focused on how Siglent has responded. There is no way for me to understand the motives of the OP. I dont even care.

Signents responses were sufficient to put them on my no fly list. If this was all about outright lies, they could have solved that with a quick and public response. But they handled the whole thing poorly.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

I honestly am not sure what you are referring to, and honestly do want to see at what point you feel that handled it poorly? Yes, the original employee did fuck up several times the first day (or two?) but once word traveled to others in Siglent, I genuinely am baffled as to where you think they handled it poorly. I'll even pay you for your trouble. I'll PM you a $5 amazon gift card if you simply include a link or explain what exactly they did (beyond the first employee) that was not handled well.

[mackek2]

Oh boy, that is going to fuel the "He's a Siglent shill" fire for sure.

[tautech]

I have only focused on how Siglent has responded. There is no way for me to understand the motives of the OP. I dont even care.

Signents responses were sufficient to put them on my no fly list. If this was all about outright lies, they could have solved that with a quick and public response. But they handled the whole thing poorly.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

I honestly am not sure what you are referring to, and honestly do want to see at what point you feel that handled it poorly? Yes, the original employee did fuck up several times the first day (or two?) but once word traveled to others in Siglent, I genuinely am baffled as to where you think they handled it poorly. I'll even pay you for your trouble. I'll PM you a $5 amazon gift card if you simply include a link or explain what exactly they did (beyond the first employee) that was not handled well.

How would one know how to "handle" saga's such as this.
Not in any company management guide that I know of.

They did the best they could and as openly as they could.

[mackek2]

I have only focused on how Siglent has responded. There is no way for me to understand the motives of the OP. I dont even care.

Signents responses were sufficient to put them on my no fly list. If this was all about outright lies, they could have solved that with a quick and public response. But they handled the whole thing poorly.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

I honestly am not sure what you are referring to, and honestly do want to see at what point you feel that handled it poorly? Yes, the original employee did fuck up several times the first day (or two?) but once word traveled to others in Siglent, I genuinely am baffled as to where you think they handled it poorly. I'll even pay you for your trouble. I'll PM you a $5 amazon gift card if you simply include a link or explain what exactly they did (beyond the first employee) that was not handled well.

How would one know how to "handle" saga's such as this.
Not in any company management guide that I know of.

They did the best they could and as openly as they could.

Agreed. There is not a single time I can find that they did handle it poorly. So if he does try to take me up on the offer and actually goes back and rereads the posts, he will probably find that out as well, so I probably won't have to pay out.

[vk6zgo]

I never said the company was not responsible for it's employees actions but seriously it takes days just to go back and forth with people in China because of the time difference.What could be handled on the same continent in a matter of hours via email takes time when the person on the other end is getting your correspondence from today the next morning.

Sorry,this doesn't fly.

It is time zones and working hours.......What is there not to fly here?pigs maybe?I simply stated what it normally takes to communicate with China from the USA not where you are.If you want to compare your response from them as a customer to their internal response rate then by all means go ahead but the fact is that you are comparing apples to oranges.Care to tell me what day you emailed them on?Have you ever thought it may have been a Chinese holiday?Or do they not exist in your bubble?The simple fact is that logistically dealing with China from the USA takes time.SIMPLE FACT

Nice aggressive reply!

My "bubble" is quite aware of Chinese holidays---we had to cope with them for several years.

I must not have made it clear enough--I,& others at a recent Employer sent many e-mails to a company in China who had produced a number of custom made RF Exciter/PowerAmplifier devices for us.

Some didn't work at all,others cooked up LDMOS RF amplifier devices like there was no tomorrow,plus other lesser faults.
Not one unit was free of faults,hence the e-mails.

As I said,we are in the same time zone as this company,so might have expected quick replies to our e-mails.
Instead,we had delays of several days at the best,at worst,no answer at all.

Contrast this with turnaround times from Connecticut USA (-13hrs time difference),& Southern California USA(-16hrs).

With the USA companies we received  answers in one day,or in some cases,better.

AND ,the answers were useful,full of Technical detail,not the
 "We received your message,things are nice here today,hope you are well,I'll show your email to the Engineer sometime" stuff we got from China.

We even had a visit from some "high-ups" in the company---nice guys,but you couldn't pin them down to discuss the shortcomings of their equipment.
They just wanted to talk about the "new ,improved designs" they hoped  to sell us.
Well,that "went over like a wrought iron hang glider!"

Eventually,we took matters into our own hands,fixed all the design & production problems & had "relatively" reliable equipment.

I'm not saying Siglent is like that,but many of us have been "bitten" by Chinese companies in the past,& are prone to take statements from them "with a grain of salt".

[EEVblog]

The CEO fly's out to visit a blogger in Australia to apologise,

My recollection is this is not true. The "blogger" said the CEO was on business to meet with someone else who just happened to be in the area, and kindly accepted the "blogger" invite for a talk.

Also, the visit was prearranged before any of this happened.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-826-siglent-ceo-eric-qin-visits-the-eevblog-lab/msg812741/#msg812741

From Dave: Eric knows this, which is why he came all the way to Australia just to meet me (no other itinerary, he flew back the next morning). 

I can assure you that this visit had nothing at all to do with the ebay incident, the date and flights were arranged on the 21st Sept.

[miguelvp]

I took the high road until I was drug through the mud and attacked relentlessly for pointing out SIMPLE facts.Facts that have yet to be proven wrong.

That word again "attacked" hmm. No one has attacked you as far as I know they just disagreed with your perception, including myself.
The only one being dragged through the mud is the OP by you.

Siglent was at fault here by issuing a fraudulent DMCA take down of a listing using an email address of a siglent employee that no longer works there. And by fraudulent I mean they reported the item to be counterfeit, when we all know there are no Siglent counterfeits around.

Your listing was removed after the rights owner reported it as counterfeit. We urge you to contact the rights owner directly for more information about why they requested the removal of your listing and whether you can relist the item.

...
We encourage you to contact Siglent Technologies Co Ltd directly if you have any questions.

 You can send an email to:
 kevin.fu@siglent.com

Later on they sent this gem:

Dear OldSchoolTechCorner,
Greetings!
Excuse me.I just finished checking all details on this case. I did really not receive your email about this issue. And now I think I could explain the reason for you.
First,we claim it  because that you are not our registered reseller.
Second, your marked price$700 is lower than our end-user price $935.Actually,We have a lot of distributors in the local area, in order to protect their rights and interests, we have to control the  price. And I did't see you marked your item as a used one.
So we affirmed that your item is a fake.

Each SIGLENT instrument has its own serial number. Please send it to us.You can find the serial number at the rear panel of instrument.  After we confirm the serial number, we will withdraw the complaint on Ebay.
And please change your price on Ebay.

Thanks for your understanding.Wish you all the best.
Any questions,please contact me:
#####.###@siglent.com

Sincerely,
SIGLENT Marketing Department

That is price fixing. Even after they acknowledge the item in question was sold as a used item or at least not sold as a new item.

This stunk like BS from the start so I decided to look a little further because you guys ostracized anyone who said anything other then lets lynch this company.

No one lynched this company, their MO came to light and people did react to it. I don't want gear that I'm not going to be able to sell if I decide to upgrade. In essence the message we got from Siglent is that the resell value of their equipment is zilch. And that is the core of the problem and why everyone got up in arms.

Claiming a genuine product as a counterfeit by them is a lie. They got caught and then pass the blame to a new employee. The problem here is that it doesn't matter if the new employee made a mistake by thinking the item was new. It's still not legal for them to issue a DMCA take down when they well knew it was not a counterfeit item. On top of that they asked "politely" to please change the offering price even after knowing it was a used piece of equipment. Also since the plead was on the same paragraph as the offer to withdraw the complaint after providing the serial number is not a coincidence, smells like a strong arm statement.

I get that they want to protect their distributors, but this was and still is the wrong approach, because what they do to prevent gray market sales is illegal in the US by claiming a genuine product is counterfeit. What can they do? well, they could buy one, check the serial number and find out what distributor is breaking the rules. Not too hard to do.

They didn't contact the seller at all, they took it directly with Ebay legal to force the takedown with false claims (i.e. not a counterfeit item at all and purchased via an authorized dealer).

He listed  it as "NEW OTHER"He misrepresented the item plain and simple.............the rest is what ensued afterwards from his mistake and he realized that he could capitalize on it.

The OP stated the following in the New Other description:

In like new condition, took extreme good care of it and always been on bench so never been moved. It in mint condition and come with manual and cable that it would have from factory.

I really don't care about your view, or the OP's deals or whatever anyone did on this or a past life. What I do care about is that Siglent issued a false claim of a product with not known counterfeits was a fake item, but they would let the matter go if the seller would adjust the price and provide the serial number.

So as a user of test equipment, why would I want to purchase a Siglent product when the resale value is practically nil? Do I care about the OP? nope, I do care on what a company that sells test equipment that I might be interested on? you bet.

My Tek FG 504 is deader than dead. I've been looking around but I really don't have a current need so I'm on the border on what to get and getting by with a diligent analog discovery for now since it does the job for my basic needs.

So yeah, I'm looking for an ARB but with no urgency. Let's just say that Siglent is not high on my list anymore, actually they are probably ranking lower than a Hantek.

[tautech]

The CEO fly's out to visit a blogger in Australia to apologise,

My recollection is this is not true. The "blogger" said the CEO was on business to meet with someone else who just happened to be in the area, and kindly accepted the "blogger" invite for a talk.

Also, the visit was prearranged before any of this happened.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-826-siglent-ceo-eric-qin-visits-the-eevblog-lab/msg812741/#msg812741

From Dave: Eric knows this, which is why he came all the way to Australia just to meet me (no other itinerary, he flew back the next morning). 

I can assure you that this visit had nothing at all to do with the ebay incident, the date and flights were arranged on the 21st Sept.

Yes Dave, I'm very well aware of that and a trip to EEVbog was on the cards some months before September 21.

[mackek2]

We made it like 10 pages with no reference to DMCA. I figured we got past that. See quote below.

This never was related to the DMCA in any way, shape, or form. A simple Google search would indicate DMCA has nothing to do with trademark enforcement at all. While I am sure they do take false DMCA claims seriously, this wasn't a DMCA takedown request so I doubt they would have said that to you. Additionally this was pointed out several times by different people here and yet you continued to run with that narrative

Wasn't just a simple DMCA, as could have counter it and had it removed pretty much ASAP, it was to affirm alleged trademark infringement, which is a lot worst and can't file a counter notice.

Lol, a Super DMCA takedown request which is a "lot worse."

So miguelvp, you don't believe the CEO when he said it was a mistake and not policy against targeting used equipment? Yes or no?

[miguelvp]

We made it like 10 pages with no reference to DMCA. I figured we got past that. See quote below.

This never was related to the DMCA in any way, shape, or form. A simple Google search would indicate DMCA has nothing to do with trademark enforcement at all. While I am sure they do take false DMCA claims seriously, this wasn't a DMCA takedown request so I doubt they would have said that to you. Additionally this was pointed out several times by different people here and yet you continued to run with that narrative

Wasn't just a simple DMCA, as could have counter it and had it removed pretty much ASAP, it was to affirm alleged trademark infringement, which is a lot worst and can't file a counter notice.

Lol, a Super DMCA takedown request which is a "lot worse."

So miguelvp, you don't believe the CEO when he said it was a mistake and not policy against targeting used equipment? Yes or no?

No, as he didn't state a change in policy and stated that for the last two years or so they have a dedicated person doing this task.

My take is not just for used equipment. It's all about their strong arm policy to claim any product sold under certain price even if it's new as a counterfeit when it's not a counterfeit product.

Wrong method to fix their distribution problem by issuing wrong trademark claims of genuine products.

As far as we all know, they will keep using that tactic on genuine Siglent products sold as new, and that's illegal in this country.

[mackek2]

He said they have a dedicated person looking for authorized resellers who go against their contractual reseller agreements and sell on sites like ebay.

My take is not just for used equipment. It's all about their strong arm policy to claim any product sold under certain price even if it's new as a counterfeit when it's not a counterfeit product.

Do you have any evidence that they have used counterfeit claims to get auctions besides this one being removed? If you have no other evidence, besides this one incident, how hard is it to believe that this was a mistake?

As far as we all know, they will keep using that tactic on genuine Siglent products sold as new, and that's illegal in this country.

As far as we all know? Based on what? This one incident? I'm pretty confident that after this kerfuffle they will be super careful about how they go about combating grey market products on ebay. So, let's not make assumptions based on what they may or may not do in the future. Let's wait and see. But in the meantime, let's stop shitting on their brand based on this single incident that has been blown waaay out of proportion.

[miguelvp]

He said they have a dedicated person looking for authorized resellers who go against their contractual reseller agreements and sell on sites like ebay.

My take is not just for used equipment. It's all about their strong arm policy to claim any product sold under certain price even if it's new as a counterfeit when it's not a counterfeit product.

Do you have any evidence that they have used counterfeit claims to get auctions besides this one being removed? If you have no other evidence, besides this one incident, how hard is it to believe that this was a mistake?

As far as we all know, they will keep using that tactic on genuine Siglent products sold as new, and that's illegal in this country.

As far as we all know? Based on what? This one incident? I'm pretty confident that after this kerfuffle they will be super careful about how they go about combating grey market products on ebay. So, let's not make assumptions based on what they may or may not do in the future. Let's wait and see. But in the meantime, let's stop shitting on their brand based on this single incident that has been blown waaay out of proportion.

Yup, from the CEO himself three times:



@26:03
@26:56
@27:59

Edit2: just to clarify that he mentions at those video timeframes that they've been doing this for 2 years with no private incidents until this fiasco.

Do I buy that the "young girl" made a mistake thinking a private sale was a distributor selling to the wrong area? Maybe so (Edit: although I find it in bad form to blame an employee). But the way to take action had to be policy not something she just did by error

From the OP post:

Your listing was removed after the rights owner reported it as counterfeit. We urge you to contact the rights owner directly for more information about why they requested the removal of your listing and whether you can relist the item.

...
We encourage you to contact Siglent Technologies Co Ltd directly if you have any questions.

 You can send an email to:
 kevin.fu@siglent.com

So to me, it's proof enough that's their standard modus operandi

Another way for them to fix it would be for the authorized distributors providing service to non authorized sales is to communicate those serial numbers back to HQ so they can catch the distributors causing problems.

I don't care where the equipment comes from as long as it the real deal, as a customer I don't want to be punished because of the manufacturer's shortcomings on their distribution channels, not my problem as long as my equipment is genuine.

[timb]

This means Siglent targets *anyone* selling new Siglent gear under a certain price. The fact they used a counterfeit claim against the OP is proof enough to me this is how they do it for everyone. Again, this is sleazy behavior in my opinion and borders on price fixing. At the very least it *is* perjury. That's a fact.

You can PM that $5 Amazon gift code.

[EEVblog]

No one lynched this company, their MO came to light and people did react to it. I don't want gear that I'm not going to be able to sell if I decide to upgrade. In essence the message we got from Siglent is that the resell value of their equipment is zilch.

This is simply wrong. Siglent will not target 2nd hand equipment.

[EEVblog]

Wrong method to fix their distribution problem by issuing wrong trademark claims of genuine products.

Actually, I think they may have every legal right to attempt to take down ebay ads that make use of their trademarked logo image or other things.
Are they allowed to "price fix"? No, not in Australia or the US at least, that is illegal.
What they can do is strip an authorized dealer of their dealership if they find them secretly selling stuff outside of their region.
They cannot stop someone from reselling their brand new gear on ebay if they don't use their trademarked logo etc.

[miguelvp]

No one lynched this company, their MO came to light and people did react to it. I don't want gear that I'm not going to be able to sell if I decide to upgrade. In essence the message we got from Siglent is that the resell value of their equipment is zilch.

This is simply wrong. Siglent will not target 2nd hand equipment.

That is now, but not when this happened, and I get they are going to be very careful on not doing this again with 2nd hand equipment.

But if I come along a piece of equipment, do I have to contact them to make sure I'm on the clear? but of course I won't know until I have the equipment in my possession.

And if I have to sell it later (third hand) and never had a problem until then, if the new buyer needs it serviced, is it going to be a problem?

There is a lot of uncertainty and no clarification on how they are going to solve their grey market, brown market, problems.

But what I've heard from the CEO is that if we don't want problems then buy from an Authorized Distributor, how is 2nd hand affected by this policy?

[miguelvp]

Wrong method to fix their distribution problem by issuing wrong trademark claims of genuine products.

Actually, I think they may have every legal right to attempt to take down ebay ads that make use of their trademarked logo image or other things.
Are they allowed to "price fix"? No, not in Australia or the US at least, that is illegal.
What they can do is strip an authorized dealer of their dealership if they find them secretly selling stuff outside of their region.
They cannot stop someone from reselling their brand new gear on ebay if they don't use their trademarked logo etc.

Let the authorized dealers report the unauthorized equipment they get to service to HQ behind the curtains. Don't punish the customers.

[EEVblog]

This is simply wrong. Siglent will not target 2nd hand equipment.

That is now, but not when this happened, and I get they are going to be very careful on not doing this again with 2nd hand equipment.

Provide evidence of one instance where they have targeted 2nd hand gear before.

And if I have to sell it later (third hand) and never had a problem until then, if the new buyer needs it serviced, is it going to be a problem?

Not many companies offer warranty on 2nd hand gear, only to the original purchaser.
Paid service is a different issue entirely.

There is a lot of uncertainty and no clarification on how they are going to solve their grey market, brown market, problems.
But what I've heard from the CEO is that if we don't want problems then buy from an Authorized Distributor, how is 2nd hand affected by this policy?

How does any other T&M company handle 2nd hand out of warranty gear you want fixed?
I suspect Siglent don't even offer a paid service facility outside of warranty.

[miguelvp]

Provide evidence of one instance where they have targeted 2nd hand gear before.

Can't, other than the lack of used Siglent TE on Ebay. I wonder if that has changed since this.

Not many companies offer warranty on 2nd hand gear, only to the original purchaser.
Paid service is a different issue entirely.

Fluke, Agilent (Keysight) do as long as the equipment is still under warranty. Actually Fluke seems to be a no questions asked, but they are far from the norm.

There is a lot of uncertainty and no clarification on how they are going to solve their grey market, brown market, problems.
But what I've heard from the CEO is that if we don't want problems then buy from an Authorized Distributor, how is 2nd hand affected by this policy?

How does any other T&M company handle 2nd hand out of warranty gear you want fixed?
I suspect Siglent don't even offer a paid service facility outside of warranty.

Granted on 2nd hand equipment out of warranty, unless it's a manufacturing fault. But what I heard is that even if in warranty and purchased from a grey market then there is no service. So it's up to the customer to ensure they are buying from the right place regardless if the equipment is new or not.

I've even seen recently someone using some old pace worldwide ancient equipment ask for a service manual of some obsolete piece of equipment manufactured by them but sold by Craft back in 1999.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/craft-by-pace-25-smt-soldering-station/msg804295/#msg804295

But again I think Pace is not the norm either nowadays.

I guess the meaning of customer is our number one priority has shifted to: original customer is our number one priority.

No matter what, one fact remains, the misuse of a trademark claim and declaring a product to be counterfeit when it's not.
And there is no way that was a mistake by a new employee, that had to be the norm on how they dealt with distributors selling outside their territory via Ebay.

I still have not seen a single picture of a fake Siglent product. They didn't claim it was a misuse of their trademark, they actually claimed it was a counterfeit product. Maybe a one off? I doubt a new employee with do that, I'm pretty sure (although I can't really prove it) that was their MO for the last 2 years.

[electrolust]

I already cancelled my reply twice but I just have to comment.  Don't we all.

I think RobertBG and mackek2 bring up good points.  But who cares?  Siglent was still in the wrong on this one.  I'm not going to rehash all of it, anyone with a brain gets it and those without won't have their opinions changed anyway.

I don't know how much of an excuse it is, but Siglent have to act aggressively (illegally) this way.  The market is just too competitive and if they play fair they will simply be eaten by the others.  "At least it will have been an honorable death", is probably not too satisfying to investors.

Big business does this all the time as well, ALL THE TIME.  Banking especially comes to mind.

If you're in the market for low end products, don't kid yourself into thinking Chinese company Y is better / has more integrity / cares about the customer / more than any other Chinese company X.  They are all cutthroat this way.  There is really no reason to favor another cheap-o brand over Siglent, not over the ethics of business practices anyway.

Lastly, hopefully most insightfully, regardless of RBG and mk2's motivations, real or otherwise, this is exactly what social media fixers do.  If Siglent didn't pay them, well they are getting a freebie.