Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"

[miguelvp]

So, RobertBG, what is your username at stereo2go? because this looks like a witch burning followup.

For what I've read there are people that are happy with OldSchoolTechGuy's work and some not, on overseas shipments of delicate equipment and for what I see he did ask the then moderator of that site to return the deck if he wanted. So the belt fell off and the buyer (moderator) decided to repair it and OldSchoolTechGuy paid for that repair.

The cracked board was a compromise but it was working as the 3rd party repairers mentioned.

Just recently, Dave (the owner of this site) got a ebay claim against him for a used old piece of equipment that the buyer expected to be fully working.

Not sure how it's in there at stereo2go, but old equipment even when restored can have faults on shipping and some boards not easily available.

I think the moderator (buyer) should have returned the item and that would have been it. Instead other forum members asking to be removed if they banned OldSchoolTechGuy and they were promptly removed. Pretty puerile in my opinion.

Also not relevant to what Siglent did here, and also it's not like OldSchoolTechGuy was going to escalate matters, actually he showed restrain.

Just in case you didn't read the whole thread, Siglent pulled his add claiming the unit for sale was a counterfeit item, which it was not.
They told him that they will reinstate the listing and withdraw the counterfeit claim if he raised his price.

So no matter how you cut it or slice it, his previous dealings with that stereo2go group have no weight to this matter.

Yes I live in Chicago as well but that's not the reason I'm posting this in case you want to make some strange case out of my location.

[crispy_tofu]

@RobertBG, what are you trying to prove?

[mackek2]

Long time EEVBlog viewer, new forum member, not a troll (I use this account name all over the web, Google me). First time I heard about this ebay issue was in Daves recent interview.

I'm going to agree with RobertBG on this one. Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill. This was a simple mistake made by a single employee who was both new to the job and probably not super well versed in English.

I don't need them withdraw the complaint, I be on the phone with eBay legal team tomorrow and have it withdrawn myself and they already said they take false DMCA cases very serious as it's considered perjury.

This never was related to the DMCA in any way, shape, or form. A simple Google search would indicate DMCA has nothing to do with trademark enforcement at all. While I am sure they do take false DMCA claims seriously, this wasn't a DMCA takedown request so I doubt they would have said that to you. Additionally this was pointed out several times by different people here and yet you continued to run with that narrative

Wasn't just a simple DMCA, as could have counter it and had it removed pretty much ASAP, it was to affirm alleged trademark infringement, which is a lot worst and can't file a counter notice.

Lol, a Super DMCA takedown request which is a "lot worse."

I don't think many people here know what price fixing is either. Right from the FTCs website (emphasis added):

Price fixing is an agreement (written, verbal, or inferred from conduct) among competitors that raises, lowers, or stabilizes prices or competitive terms.

His posts aren't even consistent:

What even more worst, they have yet to withdraw the false notice, which all they have to do is get in contact with eBay VERO department, which would have been the first step in trying to make it right

I never said, or mention legal action yet and haven't even reach the point to cross that bridge yet, or considering it yet. If I was, I am not going to discuss the matter on this forum that for sure. Let them try to make it right first, which require more time then 2 days.

I did a couple actually that very knowledgeable on these types of cases, if eBay account was suspended, or banned then yes could have had a solid 4-5 digit settlement number, but due to barely no damage and they ended up reversing claim, so no damage at all, would have been lucky if would have gotten $800 bucks and been more trouble then it worth.

I have read all 52 pages from the beginning (I always like some good drama) and it didn't take very long before I felt like OldSchoolTechGuy was just fishing for free gear. I am actually surprised that a community like this would be so quick to pass judgement like this and then to not back down when what happened came to light and an apology was given. I feel bad for the person who made the mistake, and really hope that she was not fired/reprimanded for a simple mistake. This is really what it comes down to. A single new employee at a company that is growing very fast made a simple mistake. Maybe it was lack of training, or cultural differences, but holy crap most people here went way to far with this.

[miguelvp]

...
I have read all 52 pages from the beginning (I always like some good drama) and it didn't take very long before I felt like OldSchoolTechGuy was just fishing for free gear....

Well he is known here as Corner not Guy, I did put Guy on my reply because of those links.

So are you saying that he doctored the replies? because it's obvious not just by his account, but by Siglent's responses, that a counterfeit claim was issued. Are you insinuating that's not the case?

Anyways, low posters, new website, other dramas... At the end of the day it doesn't matter. Siglent came forward and the whole community is better for it, and so is Siglent.

Your claim that he (OldSchoolTechCorner) was fishing for free gear, doesn't hold water if you really did read all the posts.

As far as anyone is concerned it seems Ebay removed the strike and will monitor Siglent's claims in the future for the sale of genuine Siglent's gear.

Gifts, etc don't matter other than for those that are jealous that someone got something for free, even if he never asked for it.

To me it smells like some kind of sour grapes from another forum.

The facts still remain, Siglent claimed his offer was for a counterfeit product (attested by both the OP and Siglent thinking it was some grey market dealer and therefore not a counterfeit item) and the issue was kind of resolved other than we don't see many used Siglent gear offered on Ebay compared to other manufacturers which is very strange.

Actually he was picked by Siglent because he was selling it at a too low price as a "buy it now" price, not an auction like Dave did.

So if we ignore that audio forum accounts regarding some delicate vintage gear repairs that have nothing to do with this matter, he (OldSchoolTechCorner) exposed some underhanded actions on Ebay regarding used Siglent gear.

If I had Siglent gear to sale because I found a company closing and they had never used gear that I wanted to dump on Ebay I wouldn't want the manufacturer claim that the gear I'm selling is fake, when it's totally genuine, and that was the matter at hand.

Feelings and other deals from that vintage audio forum have no weight to this issue, and I think the community at large and even Siglent itself gained from this issue in a positive note.

[Simon]

All companies scour ebay in search of misuse of their brand name etc and no doubt the people employed are on low wages and grabbed off the street. How else can epson afford to scan all ebay listings for compatible cartridges and file complaints as soon as the name epson is mentioned. It's a strategy that will lead to slip ups by one company or another.

[miguelvp]

All companies scour ebay in search of misuse of their brand name etc and no doubt the people employed are on low wages and grabbed off the street. How else can epson afford to scan all ebay listings for compatible cartridges and file complaints as soon as the name epson is mentioned. It's a strategy that will lead to slip ups by one company or another.

The problem is that this was not a "compatible" but a "genuine" product, and yes, it's a problem when your own distributors try to unfairly compete with your other authorized distributors worldwide. But it's not the customer that should be punished.

It's not like there is an easy solution to their problem but claiming a genuine product as a counterfeit one was reaching too much, even if it was for grey market products.

[Simon]

Long time EEVBlog viewer, new forum member, not a troll (I use this account name all over the web, Google me). First time I heard about this ebay issue was in Daves recent interview.

I'm going to agree with RobertBG on this one. Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill. This was a simple mistake made by a single employee who was both new to the job and probably not super well versed in English.

Not much of an excuse, Then again you only have to mention 2 slot car manufacturers on an ebay listing to get it removed by the one that did not make it, it's very aggressive and to an exptent over the top and knee jerk reactions. Comanies seem to hold their name dearer than their products, but teir name is only known for their products......

[Wuerstchenhund]

Looks like we caught ourself some trolls here. I mean, seriously, two newly registered accounts jumping in to defend Siglent and attack the thread starter, what a coincidence. 

@RobertBG (or mackek2 or whoever you are, which doesn't matter as I guess you're the same person anyways), if you really have any done business in China then you had known that making false claims against your competitor is pretty much curtesy over there, even though it's as illegal there as it is in the US or Europe. And if you really had any business then you should have known that a business always carries responsibility of the actions of its employees if they were representing the company at the time of their actions. And if you really had any business you would also know that the notion that a clueless graduate in a marketing department being permitted to take legal action on behalf of a company and in a language he/she doesn't even fully understands is beyond ridiculous. Frankly, if you really run a business and honestly don't know these things then you should not be in business at all (not that I believe that you're actually running something like a business, though, other than armchair warfare of course). 

But discussing this again is pointless, not only because all this has already been discussed to death but also because what we see now is pretty much a prime example of Phase 2 of the Chinese Handbook of Corporate Damage Control - use socket puppets to throw dirt on the claimant to diminish his credibility.

Another fine example of the Chinese way of dealing with things. 

[rs20]

Looks like we caught ourself some trolls here. I mean, seriously, two newly registered accounts jumping in to defend Siglent and attack the thread starter, what a coincidence. 

Do you disagree with what they said? Or falling back on an ad hominem attack instead?

I feel (with all my 1216 posts which somehow makes me worth listening to) that a company shouldn't be dragged through the mud over a misclick by one employee. This issue has been explained and addressed perfectly well by Siglent in my opinion.

[timb]

It wasn't a misclick. Why? Because after having the auction pulled, the OP contacted Siglent, only to be told that they would remove the counterfeit claim if he agreed to raise his price.

Accidentally taking the item down I can buy, but what they told him afterwards makes it clear as day what they were doing. Which, I might add, is common practice for Chinese companies. At minimum, they committed perjury when they swore in a legally binding document that the OP's item was counterfeit. At worst it's price fixing and possibly collusion.

In reality, they most likely thought the OP was a non-authorized reseller (hence the claim they didn't see the USED tag in the item) and had the auction taken down. This doesn't matter, however, as a non-authorized reseller can still sell the item. Claiming that it was a counterfeit to get the auction pulled, in order to keep the prices of the items up is illegal, as pointed out above. The Siglent rep the OP talked to practically admitted this!

Seriously, if you can't see this is what they were doing, you are naïve, stupid or maybe both.

It's great they've taken steps to make sure this never happens again, but it doesn't change what actually happened.

[rs20]

Thank you for actually making a point as opposed to an ad hominem attack. I'm not stupid or naïve, I just don't have the time to read 50 pages 

[timb]

Thank you for actually making a point as opposed to an ad hominem attack. I'm not stupid or naïve, I just don't have the time to read 50 pages 

No worries, glad I could provide a concise summery.

BTW, the good bits are in the first 5~ pages I think. Not sure if you can show only the OP's posts or not, but that's always a good way to get the gist of a thread. (Some forums have this option, others don't. Can't check right now as I'm posting via an App on my tablet.)

Anyway, I didn't mean to imply you were stupid, that was more directed at the new mystery poster. (Who clearly has some sort of hate-on for the OP.)

[Wuerstchenhund]

Looks like we caught ourself some trolls here. I mean, seriously, two newly registered accounts jumping in to defend Siglent and attack the thread starter, what a coincidence. 

Do you disagree with what they said? Or falling back on an ad hominem attack instead?

No, I just know how they play the game. 

You really believe only Siglent has these poor innocent inexperienced female graduates with lacking language skills that make serious legal mistakes? Somehow it seems that most Chinese companies are infiltrated by these graduates, because they are apparently responsible for most of the mistakes that happen in Chinese businesses.

The whole episode is pretty much standard for many Chinese businesses. This is nothing new.

I feel (with all my 1216 posts which somehow makes me worth listening to) that a company shouldn't be dragged through the mud over a misclick by one employee. This issue has been explained and addressed perfectly well by Siglent in my opinion.

No offense but if you really believe this was a mis-click by some poor employee then you're pretty gullible. Because this is not how these things work in the real world.

First thing is that you can't just send a takedown request by a simple click, ebay requires you to sign an affidavit (a sworn statement of truth, lying on it is perjury) and provide a range of information before they even start looking at it. BTDT a few times myself. So that means the graduate who doesn't speak English and therefore couldn't understand the ebay auction was still able to complete the legal legwork required to get the takedown process started? Do you also believe the earth is flat?

And of course you pretty ignore all the other facts, i.e. that they offered to remove the takedown if the OP was to raise its price (which alone is illegal, and pretty much shows that they were actually well aware that the counterfeit claim was bogus in the first place), that by law a company is responsible for the action of its employees, and so on. In short, you pretty much ignore everything which contradicts your image of Siglent being innocent. You know, all the facts that have already been presented in this thread, which you could have picked up if you wanted to.

Seriously, one has to be really gullible or willingly blind to buy the lame excuse Siglent has provided. As I wrote in another thread, it seems some fanbois here have this image of Siglent (and Rigol) of being that young, energetic startup made created by sympathic bright graduates that just try to revolutionize the tech sector and that make their first experience in the business world (pretty much the equivalent to what you often find on Kickstarter). The reality however is that Siglent is neither a new business (founded in 2002) nor an inexperienced one, they are producing scopes sold under other brands for more than a decade (and you can bet your ass that they didn't had their legal agreement done by marketing graduates). They pretty much know how far they can go, and how to soften the blow if they get caught out. Believing this episode to be an honest mistake is believing in fairy tales and unicorns.

All this is getting silly. I appreciate that there are some that are probably very fond of Siglent kit (well, whatever floats your boat) but it's quite striking to what extend the fanbois here employ selective perception to justify Siglent's actions. This behavior is often known as the 'Apple effect' (a company that can't do wrong) but that we now see the same for a Chinese B-brand is new.

[Wuerstchenhund]

Thank you for actually making a point as opposed to an ad hominem attack. I'm not stupid or naïve, I just don't have the time to read 50 pages 

So you don't have the time to read the thread and learn all the facts but you still conclude that all this is just "dragging Siglent through the mud over a misclick by one employee"?  Based on what, their CEO's statement? 

[rs20]

So you don't have the time to read the thread and learn all the facts but you still conclude that all this is just "dragging Siglent through the mud over a misclick by one employee"?  Based on what, their CEO's statement? 

Nope, just encouraging a return to stating the facts. Thank you for eventually obliging.

[madires]

Looks like we caught ourself some trolls here. I mean, seriously, two newly registered accounts jumping in to defend Siglent and attack the thread starter, what a coincidence. 

More likely paid social media PR. Since the topic isn't hot anymore trolls wouldn't be interested, I think. And the timing (just after the interview with Siglent's CEO) is too perfect

[Wuerstchenhund]

Looks like we caught ourself some trolls here. I mean, seriously, two newly registered accounts jumping in to defend Siglent and attack the thread starter, what a coincidence. 

More likely paid social media PR. Since the topic isn't hot anymore trolls wouldn't be interested, I think. And the timing (just after the interview with Siglent's CEO) is too perfect

With trolls I meant paid shills (not sure if there's a better term for that) but you're right, this is a targeted attack on the OP which is simply too with the CEO interview to be a coincidence.

[Ian.M]

I think the term you want is Sockpuppet

However, why would anyone from Siglent want to stir up the issue further?  Surely they would prefer for it to fade away as quietly as possible.   I suppose the possibility of a middle manager acting out due to loss of 'face' cant be excluded, and its also possible there was a certain amount of collusion between some official dealers and Siglent so head office may not be able to call a cease fire 100% effectively.

[Wuerstchenhund]

I think the term you want is Sockpuppet

I think that's more a general term for using multiple accounts in a forum to create fake discussions or stir dissent.

I guess 'paid shill' should fit, although I agree that both of these new accounts are probably sockpuppet accounts.

However, why would anyone from Siglent want to stir up the issue further?  Surely they would prefer for it to fade away as quietly as possible.

It's simple, by diminishing a claimant's credibility they will make sure that others who fall onto this thread (which they will for sure!) and who can only be bothered to read the last few pages get the impression that this is just some overblown honest mistake. The timing with the interview is crucial as the issue of this eposide has been raised there, and spreading FUD to make the claimant appear unreasonable or malicious serves to reinforce the CEO's statement that this was just a 'honest mistake' of that single, female clueless graduate.

All pretty standard stuff for Chinese companies (not that all Western companies are necessarily immune to that, though), and very likely pretty much organized by the very CEO that visited Dave.

[PlainName]

by diminishing a claimant's credibility

A time-hono(u)red strategy.

But... are you implying that the threads where the OP doesn't come off very well at all don't exist? Or are fake or something? It is one thing for someone to falsely impugn ones credibility, and quite another for one to do it to oneself.

[Ian.M]

That's a no-win strategy.  Posting to the thread 'freshens' it in search engine listings, anyone with even a few brain cells who has ever experienced topic drift will take a look at the start of the thread to see if it is more relevant and there is almost always a regular poster who will chip in if a topic has had an apparently deliberately misleading post added to the end of it.

Then there's the awkward brigade, who, if sufficiently irked by the sock or meat-puppets collate evidence before it can be suppressed and attach it to a post linking key points in the thread or elsewhere.

Diminishing the claimant's credibility is only effective if they shoot themselves in the foot or where there is no real community.   (e.g Amazon reviews)

[RobertBG]

I have no need to hide who I am but I will say this.
I have never been a member of the stereo2go website or what ever it is called nor will I ever be.Nor do I have any interest in Old tape decks walkmans etc,etc.It is simply the first thing that came up in my google search.There's plenty more dirt to be found after digging further and instead of making acusations do yourself a favor and go look for yourself.While you are at it go and view one of the OP's videos.Take a look at the grammar and level of intellect of the person you are so vehemently defending with your attacks.Although considering how most of you continue to IGNORE FACTS I highly doubt you'll do any research for yourself.

I have no ties to Siglent,hell I don't even own one of their products and if I where to buy one it'd most likely be looking for USED So I would be concerned if it was actually a issue other than a mistake that was blown out of proportion.Although chances are you'll ignore this point or twist it around into your favor while continuing to IGNORE FACTS.

Do yourself a favor before going on with the attacks,google this guy and his youtube channel.................SERIOUSLY.

I also have never had a dealing with him or any of his aliases nor do I know of anyone who has.

I SIMPLY READ A THREAD THAT WAS MENTIONED IN A YOUTUBE COMMENT AFTER WATCHING ONE OF DAVE'S VIDEOS AND FELT THAT THINGS DID NOT ADD UP.

If anyone believes that I have a vested interest or ties to anything or anyone in this thread I'll happily put my money where my mouth is.I'd be willing to disclose my personal details with the caveat that when you found nothing tying me to this debacle other then this thread you owe me $500(I'd give Dave $100 and donate the rest to charity) and if you did find a legitimate tie to the OP or Siglent or anyone who works for them in any way whatsoever I'd pay you $500 (to do as you wish).

Seriously people it's not like this guy was a longstanding member of your community here.He joined around 100 or so days ago.Not long after he was banned from the site I found.He's had numerous infractions with Ebay under several aliases that are easily tied to him.He's also had quite a few less then stellar deals over the net and while 1 or 2 might've been a disgruntled customer what I've found is a pattern that shows more.Ebay more than likely had an eye on him and if they did it would've taken very little on the other end to initiate actions against him.

Say what you want about me but if you researched things for yourself you'd CLEARLY see how much this truly stinks like BULL SHIT.
 

[Ian.M]

Thou doth protest too much, methinks.

However, *ASSUMING* you are 100% on the level, consider getting a life!

[Rasz]

Actually I did waste quite a bit of my time reading all 52 pages and I surely expected such a  remark.I appreciate your concern but considering the fact that I own and operate a business that has dealings on 3 continents including China,has issues with Ebay infringements such as this daily with my product and others that I carry as a authorized distributor ...

siglent distributor?

[vk6zgo]

Looks like we caught ourself some trolls here. I mean, seriously, two newly registered accounts jumping in to defend Siglent and attack the thread starter, what a coincidence. 

Do you disagree with what they said? Or falling back on an ad hominem attack instead?

No, I just know how they play the game. 

You really believe only Siglent has these poor innocent inexperienced female graduates with lacking language skills that make serious legal mistakes? Somehow it seems that most Chinese companies are infiltrated by these graduates, because they are apparently responsible for most of the mistakes that happen in Chinese businesses.

The whole episode is pretty much standard for many Chinese businesses. This is nothing new.

I feel (with all my 1216 posts which somehow makes me worth listening to) that a company shouldn't be dragged through the mud over a misclick by one employee. This issue has been explained and addressed perfectly well by Siglent in my opinion.

No offense but if you really believe this was a mis-click by some poor employee then you're pretty gullible. Because this is not how these things work in the real world.

First thing is that you can't just send a takedown request by a simple click, ebay requires you to sign an affidavit (a sworn statement of truth, lying on it is perjury) and provide a range of information before they even start looking at it. BTDT a few times myself. So that means the graduate who doesn't speak English and therefore couldn't understand the ebay auction was still able to complete the legal legwork required to get the takedown process started? Do you also believe the earth is flat?

And of course you pretty ignore all the other facts, i.e. that they offered to remove the takedown if the OP was to raise its price (which alone is illegal, and pretty much shows that they were actually well aware that the counterfeit claim was bogus in the first place), that by law a company is responsible for the action of its employees, and so on. In short, you pretty much ignore everything which contradicts your image of Siglent being innocent. You know, all the facts that have already been presented in this thread, which you could have picked up if you wanted to.

Seriously, one has to be really gullible or willingly blind to buy the lame excuse Siglent has provided. As I wrote in another thread, it seems some fanbois here have this image of Siglent (and Rigol) of being that young, energetic startup made created by sympathic bright graduates that just try to revolutionize the tech sector and that make their first experience in the business world (pretty much the equivalent to what you often find on Kickstarter). The reality however is that Siglent is neither a new business (founded in 2002) nor an inexperienced one, they are producing scopes sold under other brands for more than a decade (and you can bet your ass that they didn't had their legal agreement done by marketing graduates). They pretty much know how far they can go, and how to soften the blow if they get caught out. Believing this episode to be an honest mistake is believing in fairy tales and unicorns.

All this is getting silly. I appreciate that there are some that are probably very fond of Siglent kit (well, whatever floats your boat) but it's quite striking to what extend the fanbois here employ selective perception to justify Siglent's actions. This behavior is often known as the 'Apple effect' (a company that can't do wrong) but that we now see the same for a Chinese B-brand is new.

They may well just be people who are enamoured with the brand.
It seems a bit bizarre,but I have run into such folks before.

On the "Whirlpool" forum I posted a story about how the engine of my daughter's new Hyundai Accent blew up with the nearest town 100km away,leaving her stuck in the Outback.
I was,understandably quite critical of Hyundai.

Their "fanbois" came out in force:

"She had no business driving in such an isolated area!"------thousands of people do so in other brands of car.
"She must have done something wrong"
,& so on---
You would have thought I had slandered their mother!

I was astounded that people,apparently unconnected with a company can identify so strongly with a brand that they are passionate in its defence.
It seems Siglent have similar fans.