Author Topic: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"  (Read 351138 times)

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Offline OldSchoolTechCornerTopic starter

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #425 on: October 25, 2015, 01:29:06 pm »
Then explain why there is absolutely no used Siglent gear on Ebay at the beginning of this thread and why listings for used Siglent gear have dissapeared?


I don't know. Have listings for used Siglent gear disappeared? I must have missed that post.


At least one other used listing for same generator, as based my price off it, I saw disappear three weeks ago. If I could pull it up I would show you, but been deleted off eBay servers.

So yep they are trying to control pricing, but is stupid on their part and more likely illegal, as the way they are going about it.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2015, 01:33:40 pm by OldSchoolTechCorner »
 

Offline ulix

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #426 on: October 25, 2015, 01:31:33 pm »
Was there ever a statement form them about the rust on the case? I don't think so. The only changed it.
Did they over any replacement? No!

and then a while ago, when dave made a review about their stuff, 2 days later I had a newsletter from them advertising dave and his review.
I don't think they care about customers, they want to get more money out... selling more stuff.
I had some emails with them, and I must say it wasn't very good. They don't listen (read), this is why I would rather go to Rigol. If you have a problem with one instrument  :-//
 

Offline Bob F.

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #427 on: October 25, 2015, 01:32:28 pm »
Just to mention that they just lost another potential customer.  Looking for an upgrade to my old Thandar TG102 f'n gen and Siglent were high in the running.  Mistakes are one thing; deliberately trying to manipulate the market by lying and pressuring innocent individuals is an entirely different matter.  Looks like Rigol are going to win my money again...

Untrustworthy and bullying.  The barge pole has not been produced that is long enough with which I would ever touch Siglent in future.


 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #428 on: October 25, 2015, 01:37:04 pm »
But it goes on:
"Second, your market price $700 is lower than our end-user price $935. Actually, we have a lot of local distributors in the local area, in order to protect their rights and interests, we have to control the price. And I didn't see you marked your item as a used one, so we affirmed that your item is a fake."
But as I said, you can lead a horse to water...

In case you missed it, this is the exact reason why I asked Siglent this:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-they-filed-a-'wrongful-trademark-claim'/msg784402/#msg784402
and this:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-they-filed-a-'wrongful-trademark-claim'/msg784534/#msg784534
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #429 on: October 25, 2015, 01:40:28 pm »
Was there ever a statement form them about the rust on the case? I don't think so. The only changed it.

Yes, they changed their process and fixed it.
They were very poor at communicating this though.

Quote
and then a while ago, when dave made a review about their stuff, 2 days later I had a newsletter from them advertising dave and his review.

What's wrong with that? Any company with half a brain is going to take advantage of reviews.
 

Offline oaliey

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #430 on: October 25, 2015, 01:53:03 pm »
The PM's still in my box

Can I suggest that you replace that screenshot with one that doesn't show contact details, while that phone number might be publically available it was sent to you privately and should be kept that way.
 

Offline OldSchoolTechCornerTopic starter

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #431 on: October 25, 2015, 01:54:00 pm »
Just to mention that they just lost another potential customer.  Looking for an upgrade to my old Thandar TG102 f'n gen and Siglent were high in the running.  Mistakes are one thing; deliberately trying to manipulate the market by lying and pressuring innocent individuals is an entirely different matter.  Looks like Rigol are going to win my money again...

Untrustworthy and bullying.  The barge pole has not been produced that is long enough with which I would ever touch Siglent in future.

I hate to say Rigol  did it to, someone mention it and a whole thread about it.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/ds1052e-removed-from-ebay/
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #432 on: October 25, 2015, 01:54:03 pm »
I look a little deeper and do believe it was screw up. Was it done intentionally? Of course it was. Did they know it wasn't counterfeit? YES. They admitted to it already, before the GM knew about it and clearly admitted they use it as a means to protect local distributors to keep others from selling at below set price.

Which is essentially admitting to engage in criminal activity. This alone makes it much more than a "screw-up".

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Really in reality what they did was shoot themselves in the foot, as some will look at resale value when making judgement on buying equipment. Siglent used items cheap is also a good thing in some ways and free advertising and they are killing that market for themselves.

No, they're not. Unless this results in an investigation by the authorities this thread will soon be forgotten, and after a while they will do the same again and again. Buyers will also not pay too much attention once some time has passed, as they did with Rigol (who did the same thing, and it didn't impact their sales).

Don't forget that this isn't something new or unique, it's pretty standard way for most Chinese companies. Letting them off the hook is part of the problem.

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It not Price Fixing on a market scale to commit racketeering, like you are assuming it is.


I beg to differ. I just had a long email discussion with one of the corporate lawyers and APAC experts of one of our US dependencies (and a personal friend of mine), and based on the facts that are presented here he very much confirmed that this is criminal behavior. It doesn't have to be on a large scale to become a felony.

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So where they right? NO. At the same time, I don't think they sure be hung for it. Even though they did wrong, I don't think they deserve the very harsh punishment that more likely would follow, as they actually did more damage to themselves, buy trying to enforce prices on the used market trying to protect their distributors, as they more likely complain to them.

Which essentially send out the message violating the law is OK. Which they will certainly do again. As I said, apologize, rinse and repeat.

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Do I think they are a bad horrible company that don't care and is sleazy? Honestly NO. For more then one reason and not just because they talk to me and try to force me into to believing otherwise, as not no fool ether and dealt with my fair share of those that actually where bad. I see them as the GM see them and this was before this dispute happen. I see them working hard to improve on quality, it show from one year to the next on their test equipment and actually used the SDG2122X with new firmware update and I am impressive with it, when compare to the older model and over the years seen improvements. Plus they made several changes within the company recently, so show they are trying to improve and most changes within the last few months, so it take time and is a learning curve.

Learning courve? May I remind you that Siglent was founded in 2002, that's 13 years ago! They have been producing OEM gear for many smaller and larger corporations including LeCroy for a long time, and you'd think that 13 years dealing with large customers in various countries should have given them enough time to "learn". You can also bet that nothing is made without the vetting by a lawyer.

They know the rules very well.

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I just think they made a huge mistake, as they got away with it for so long and though it OK, so they abuse it.

So I guess you bought the story then, which is a bit disappointing.

Quote
But for other reason I see hope for them if they can get passed the bullshit and focus in the right areas.

Sure, Just better don't hold your breath.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2015, 01:56:21 pm by Wuerstchenhund »
 

Offline OldSchoolTechCornerTopic starter

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #433 on: October 25, 2015, 01:55:15 pm »
The PM's still in my box

Can I suggest that you replace that screenshot with one that doesn't show contact details, while that phone number might be publically available it was sent to you privately and should be kept that way.

I over looked that, It been removed.
 

Offline alex89

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #434 on: October 25, 2015, 01:59:09 pm »
I witnessed a few ebay sellers based in uk being shut down because they weren't Siglent authorized dealers and they were offering too much competitive prices. This dates back to last year when I was in the market for a frequency generator. When I got in touch with the manufacturer (got a defective unit) they immediately asked for the S/N and wanted to know where I got my unit from. Needless to say they refused to honour the warranty because it came from an unauthorized dealer, luckily the seller was very supportive and I ended up with a replacement. I don't know if this is legal in EU but that experience was enough for stopping me looking after their test equipment.
 

Offline ulix

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #435 on: October 25, 2015, 01:59:18 pm »


What's wrong with that? Any company with half a brain is going to take advantage of reviews.

[/quote]

Well when there is something bad going on the didn't say anything. Because they don't want to know others.
When there is something good, they shout it through to the whole world. Yes it's common, but something feels odd, I don't know...  :-[

I think they should concentrate on their products and let them do the speaking. If they were confident in their products, they wouldn't need this reviews... Isn't it the goal to make good instruments?
 

Offline OldSchoolTechCornerTopic starter

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #436 on: October 25, 2015, 02:07:11 pm »

Learning courve? May I remind you that Siglent was founded in 2002, that's 13 years ago! They have been producing OEM gear for many smaller and larger corporations including LeCroy for a long time, and you'd think that 13 years dealing with large customers in various countries should have given them enough time to "learn". You can also bet that nothing is made without the vetting by a lawyer.


You bought up a very good point. This alone change my opinion a bit and yes you are correct.

No not buying into their story, as they can tell you anything. Looking at details they and eBay provided and info I looked up. 


« Last Edit: October 25, 2015, 02:19:37 pm by OldSchoolTechCorner »
 

Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #437 on: October 25, 2015, 02:08:15 pm »

Well when there is something bad going on the didn't say anything. Because they don't want to know others.
When there is something good, they shout it through to the whole world. Yes it's common, but something feels odd, I don't know...  :-[

I think they should concentrate on their products and let them do the speaking. If they were confident in their products, they wouldn't need this reviews... Isn't it the goal to make good instruments?

It's crazy to think that a company isn't going to push good reviews. You can't just make stuff and hope someone notices. Even big companies have to hustle and get their stuff sold as best they can, just not with the sort of shady behavior we've seen here.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #438 on: October 25, 2015, 02:08:50 pm »
I hate to say Rigol  did it to, someone mention it and a whole thread about it.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/ds1052e-removed-from-ebay/

Actually, that case is interesting:
Quote
While the vast majority of trade on our site is legitimate, we take many steps to protect our buyers from sellers who may offer items that are not authentic. One of them is to remove items reported to us as allegedly infringing through eBay's VeRO program.  In this case, we removed the listing because the owner of a copyright and/or trademark in this product has reported to us that they believe the item may not be authentic.

Note the phrase "believe the item not to be authentic".
So it seems all a company has to be is "believe" (i.e. suspect) the item is not genuine, no evidence required, and bingo, they can get away with having it taken down.
So a company could potentially claim they suspect an item to be counterfeit (and presumably be legally fine, i.e not lying), and bingo, that's good enough for Ebay.

BTW, IIRC there have been no reports of Rigol doing this since that time.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #439 on: October 25, 2015, 02:10:42 pm »
I am looking into a corporate lawyer. I know a couple.  Plus know it a cut and dry case.

The only winners will be the lawyers.
 

Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #440 on: October 25, 2015, 02:13:56 pm »
EBay just assumes that the trademark holder/copyright holder/whoever is operating in good faith. Honestly, that's pretty reasonable I think. In most business dealings, there's an implied assumption of good faith. If I make a typo on the contract, we're going to fix it, not screw someone over. If I sign in the wrong place, we just fix it...it doesn't nullify the contract. Etc etc. If they say it's counterfeit, OK it's counterfeit because presumably they know better than we do.

It normally works fine until you have a poorly behaving company that abuses the system, and now Siglent's getting their wiener slapped for abusing the that trust and good faith.

re: lawyers
I'd be surprised if a lawyer doesn't just laugh and tell you to let it go. The item is already sold, right? They're fixing the EBay black mark...allegedly anyway, but I can't believe they wouldn't at this point. What damages do you go for? Just punitive damages? There's nothing here, man. Just enjoy the rest of your weekend and forget about this nonsense.

« Last Edit: October 25, 2015, 02:18:29 pm by John Coloccia »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #441 on: October 25, 2015, 02:18:20 pm »
EBay just assumes that the trademark holder/copyright holder/whoever is operating in good faith.

You perhaps don't even need to be the actual copyright/trademark owner to make the claim?
IIRC there was some suspician that the Rigol ebay case might have been instigated by a rival (authorised) Rigol ebay dealer.
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #442 on: October 25, 2015, 02:19:22 pm »
I am looking into a corporate lawyer. I know a couple.  Plus know it a cut and dry case.

Good. I'm not saying you should engage in a lawsuit (which I wouldn't). I would just recommend to report the incident to the authorities.

Quote
Trust me didn't buy the story. They still are very well clearly in the wrong no matter how they want to spin it.

You have to let them explain themselves.

The thing is you won't get a true explanation, simply because they can't. Anything they say in public could be admissible in court, so it's basic rule to not say anything too specific, even if a company wanted to be honest (which I doubt Siglent is), simply because that would open them up to liability.

So even if they wanted to say the truth, they can't. That's why waiting for a full explanation is futile in any case.

As I said, Siglent knows the game.
 

Offline siggi

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #443 on: October 25, 2015, 02:20:06 pm »
The question of how many, and which listings have been removed may be somewhat answerable, as Google's cache may have some copies. Here http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Ji6jcO2YCfAJ:www.ebay.com/itm/Siglent-SDG5122-Function-Arbitrary-Waveform-Generator-120MHz-MINT-/111776417161%3Fhash%3Ditem1a0664c589+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca
 as a case in point, is the listing from OldSchoolTechCorner.

Here http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Ibduh48vQ9kJ:www.ebay.com/itm/SIGLENT-SDS1072CML-Digital-Oscilloscope-/141557959724+&cd=11&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca and here http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:56toVPaacUQJ:www.ebay.com/itm/RPC-INDUSTRY-SIGLENT-SDS2102-SUPERPHOSPHOR-DIGITAL-STORAGE-OSCILLOSCOPE-2x100MHz-/281348054740+&cd=56&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca are two other listings that seem to have been removed. Can't say why they were removed nor whether Siglent was involved, but these look consistent (to my eye) with Siglent's story of trying to control brown-market distribution.

Whether this is by Siglent's action, and whether that action is lawful, I can't say.

You can look for these by comparing the ebay listings and the cached copy from a Google search: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=site%3Aebay.com+siglent+item+condition+used - maybe someone can come up with a clever way to automate this.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #444 on: October 25, 2015, 02:21:40 pm »
I am looking into a corporate lawyer. I know a couple.  Plus know it a cut and dry case.
The only winners will be the lawyers.
That is just like saying we need no laws because some people make a living from studying them and solving disputes for you. This whole incident reminds me of the VW crisis. What companies need to do is think about the consequences of their actions before doing harm. Not after they get caught with their pants down! Without lawyers to defend our laws we (consumers) are just fair game.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline OldSchoolTechCornerTopic starter

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #445 on: October 25, 2015, 02:24:51 pm »

The thing is you won't get a true explanation, simply because they can't. Anything they say in public could be admissible in court, so it's basic rule to not say anything too specific, even if a company wanted to be honest (which I doubt Siglent is), simply because that would open them up to liability.

So even if they wanted to say the truth, they can't. That's why waiting for a full explanation is futile in any case.

As I said, Siglent knows the game.

That I am fully aware of. They already try pushing the blame off on someone already, when they are clearly still responsible.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2015, 02:27:06 pm by OldSchoolTechCorner »
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #446 on: October 25, 2015, 02:24:59 pm »
I am looking into a corporate lawyer. I know a couple.  Plus know it a cut and dry case.

The only winners will be the lawyers.

The suggestion was not to hire a lawyer to sue Siglent. The idea is to talk to a corporate lawyer to help him understand how these processes work in reality and how likely their explanation of this poor naive stupid female marketing graduate really is.

re: lawyers
I'd be surprised if a lawyer doesn't just laugh and tell you to let it go. The item is already sold, right? They're fixing the EBay black mark...allegedly anyway, but I can't believe they wouldn't at this point. What damages do you go for? Just punitive damages? There's nothing here, man. Just enjoy the rest of your weekend and forget about this nonsense.

You ignore what the issue is. This isn't a civil matter, this is a criminal matter. All that should be done is to report the incident and provide all evidence to the authorities.
 

Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #447 on: October 25, 2015, 02:25:27 pm »
EBay just assumes that the trademark holder/copyright holder/whoever is operating in good faith.

You perhaps don't even need to be the actual copyright/trademark owner to make the claim?
IIRC there was some suspician that the Rigol ebay case might have been instigated by a rival (authorised) Rigol ebay dealer.

Maybe not. I don't know. I'm thinking what would happen if I found an obvious fake FX888D on Ebay. I have a feeling if I sent off a note, called it out as an obvious counterfeit/fake, and maybe linked to Hakko's site to prove it, I think it'd be reasonable to yank it, but I don't know what they'd actually do.
 

Offline OldSchoolTechCornerTopic starter

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #448 on: October 25, 2015, 02:30:35 pm »
The question of how many, and which listings have been removed may be somewhat answerable, as Google's cache may have some copies. Here http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Ji6jcO2YCfAJ:www.ebay.com/itm/Siglent-SDG5122-Function-Arbitrary-Waveform-Generator-120MHz-MINT-/111776417161%3Fhash%3Ditem1a0664c589+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca
 as a case in point, is the listing from OldSchoolTechCorner.

Here http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Ibduh48vQ9kJ:www.ebay.com/itm/SIGLENT-SDS1072CML-Digital-Oscilloscope-/141557959724+&cd=11&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca and here http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:56toVPaacUQJ:www.ebay.com/itm/RPC-INDUSTRY-SIGLENT-SDS2102-SUPERPHOSPHOR-DIGITAL-STORAGE-OSCILLOSCOPE-2x100MHz-/281348054740+&cd=56&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca are two other listings that seem to have been removed. Can't say why they were removed nor whether Siglent was involved, but these look consistent (to my eye) with Siglent's story of trying to control brown-market distribution.

Whether this is by Siglent's action, and whether that action is lawful, I can't say.

You can look for these by comparing the ebay listings and the cached copy from a Google search: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=site%3Aebay.com+siglent+item+condition+used - maybe someone can come up with a clever way to automate this.

That another one that magically disappeared?

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Ibduh48vQ9kJ:www.ebay.com/itm/SIGLENT-SDS1072CML-Digital-Oscilloscope-/141557959724+&cd=11&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidsLogin&item=141557959724&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2564
 

Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"
« Reply #449 on: October 25, 2015, 02:32:28 pm »
I am looking into a corporate lawyer. I know a couple.  Plus know it a cut and dry case.

The only winners will be the lawyers.

The suggestion was not to hire a lawyer to sue Siglent. The idea is to talk to a corporate lawyer to help him understand how these processes work in reality and how likely their explanation of this poor naive stupid female marketing graduate really is.

re: lawyers
I'd be surprised if a lawyer doesn't just laugh and tell you to let it go. The item is already sold, right? They're fixing the EBay black mark...allegedly anyway, but I can't believe they wouldn't at this point. What damages do you go for? Just punitive damages? There's nothing here, man. Just enjoy the rest of your weekend and forget about this nonsense.

You ignore what the issue is. This isn't a civil matter, this is a criminal matter. All that should be done is to report the incident and provide all evidence to the authorities.

I don't really see the crime here. But even assuming there was a crime, and I'm pretty sure there isn't but even if there was, do you really think the United States of America is going to extradite some girl from China, prosecute her and toss her in jail because she made a false trademark accusation? Come on, man. This is making a mountain out of a molehill. The best anyone's going to get is some lost sales from our little group here, maybe a little slap from EBay with a stern "Cut out the nonsense", and...well, that's about it.
 


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