Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"

[EEVblog]

With that said, putting someone in a bad spot who has come by to do You the service of interviewing them about their company would be in Very Bad Form.
I wouldn't do it.

FYI, they aren't dropping by for an on camera "interview", that has not been discussed actually. They will be visiting the local dealer who are just down the road, so I guess they thought why not drop by my place and meet me. They are also bringing some new gear.

[pickle9000]

With that said, putting someone in a bad spot who has come by to do You the service of interviewing them about their company would be in Very Bad Form.
I wouldn't do it.

FYI, they aren't dropping by for an on camera "interview", that has not been discussed actually. They will be visiting the local dealer who are just down the road, so I guess they thought why not drop by my place and meet me. They are also bringing some new gear.

They could easily turn this bad event into a good thing. Stop the practice and come up with a gift for the ebay user. Give dave a few items to review and hand out to viewers. The goal is to grow the company so making customers happy is part of it.

Equipment "features" are not only the size of a display or how many knobs a product has. Shipping, service and even being able to sell gear that is no longer used is a "feature".

[Someone]

I am no lawyer, but I don't think that is price fixing. As far as I know, a manufacturer can make 'no discount' rules for authorized dealer all day long. Price fixing is when competitors ban together to raise prices as a whole in a market segment.

Again, not positive, but I don't think that letter is indicating illegal activity. Harsh maybe, but whatever.

It varies from country to country, in Australia the supplier/manufacturer may not control the price of the retailer:
https://www.accc.gov.au/business/anti-competitive-behaviour/imposing-minimum-resale-prices
But its all academic once the supplier is an overseas business.

[EEVblog]

I am no lawyer, but I don't think that is price fixing. As far as I know, a manufacturer can make 'no discount' rules for authorized dealer all day long. Price fixing is when competitors ban together to raise prices as a whole in a market segment.
Again, not positive, but I don't think that letter is indicating illegal activity. Harsh maybe, but whatever.

Yes, I suspect it's not illegal either.
And probably it's not illegal to ask a private company (ebay) to remove a listing for whatever reason. Ebay can chose to either comply or not.
DMCA is also a legal avenue to get stuff taken down from websites and places like ebay, but we are not sure if this is the case here?
And again, is it actually illegal for Siglent to ask the seller to raise their price? That's likely only answerable by a judge in a court of law.
Of course it all looks really bad for Siglent, and that's a different argument, but people stating emphatically that it's all totally illegal etc might very well be off the mark.
Just playing devils's advocate here.

[AF6LJ]

With that said, putting someone in a bad spot who has come by to do You the service of interviewing them about their company would be in Very Bad Form.
I wouldn't do it.

FYI, they aren't dropping by for an on camera "interview", that has not been discussed actually. They will be visiting the local dealer who are just down the road, so I guess they thought why not drop by my place and meet me. They are also bringing some new gear.

Sounds good, hopefully there will be some new episodes of Tear-down Tuesday
YAH...

[rx8pilot]

Yes, I suspect it's not illegal either.
And probably it's not illegal to ask a private company (ebay) to remove a listing for whatever reason. Ebay can chose to either comply or not.
DMCA is also a legal avenue to get stuff taken down from websites and places like ebay, but we are not sure if this is the case here?
And again, is it actually illegal for Siglent to ask the seller to raise their price? That's likely only answerable by a judge in a court of law.
Of course it all looks really bad for Siglent, and that's a different argument, but people stating emphatically that it's all totally illegal etc might very well be off the mark.
Just playing devils's advocate here.

After 20+ years as a small business owner, I have learned that the law and logic are not friends. Things that look bad or feel bad are not necessarily illegal. I will fully admit that I am no lawyer and do not have any real understanding of this issue from a legal perspective. Of course it looks bad and feels bad for sure. If more ugly details ooze out of this mess, I would love to see a proper legal review that may uncover any legal wrongdoing or not. At this point, it's all guessing based on feelings and emotion ab about a big business pushing and shoving. Many (including me) are hoping there is a legal wrist slap, but have no idea if that is at all a reality.

In the end, the market decides what to buy. The problem is that this thread will be squashed by the passage of a few weeks and Siglent will be selling things and pushing people around, but with a more delicate process that is less likely to escalate to something like this.

[John Coloccia]

Like I said before, I doubt there's anything criminal here, but that doesn't nescessarily mean there's no liability. For example, it's not nescessarily illegal to get into a car accident, but you're still responsible for the damage you caused.  But what are you going to do? Sue them for some Ebay fee or something? Bah...  Simplest is to simply spend your money somewhere else and just avoid all the drama. Who has time to play games like this?

[nbritton]

As an end-user, I like to know when I'm buying from a non-authorized distributor and may not be receiving full warranty and service.

The law requires Siglent to honor the warranty regardless of whether the equipment was sold through an authorized dealer, unauthorized dealer, or any other party. New is new, the equipment could be bought and sold by a thousand different distributors and so long as the box wasn't opened the equipment is still new and comes with a warranty. This whole concept of dealers is perplexing to me, the only reason the auto industry has dealers is because it's mandated by law that car companies can't sell directly to customers. This isn't the case with electronics, so I have no idea why Siglent would even want to utilize a dealer network. The bottom line is that regardless of where I bought the new equipment Siglent would have to support it. Furthermore, if I have a problem I want support direct from the manufacturer, I don't want to deal with a middleman.

[dadler]

As an end-user, I like to know when I'm buying from a non-authorized distributor and may not be receiving full warranty and service.

The law requires Siglent to honor the warranty regardless of whether the equipment was sold through an authorized dealer, unauthorized dealer, or any other party. New is new, the equipment could be bought and sold by a thousand different distributors and so long as the box wasn't opened the equipment is still new and comes with a warranty. This whole concept of dealers is perplexing to me, the only reason the auto industry has dealers is because it's mandated by law that car companies can't sell directly to customers. This isn't the case with electronics, so I have no idea why Siglent would even want to utilize a dealer network. The bottom line is that regardless of where I bought the new equipment Siglent would have to support it. Furthermore, if I have a problem I want support direct from the manufacturer, I don't want to deal with a middleman.

The law where requires this?

[OldSchoolTechCorner]

The way they when about it was illegal. If the DMCA itself if filed correctly for a valid reason is not illegal, but filing it for a purpose then what it intended for is illegal, which is what they did and did it for trademark counterfeit reason, when clearly it was to protect distributors to keep others from selling at a low price. eBay by law has to remove listing till resolved, or notice is withdrawn and also has negative impact on account, unless a withdraw is issue and due to it for trademark counterfeit, you can't file a counter notice, like you can with a standard DMCA takedown order. Is it a federal offense? Actually it is in the USA, but don't think they realized that it was that serious and to be honest the "Price fixing", was just on their brand and not the market as a whole like their competition.

Now after talking to the GM and after comments in threads and PM's. I do believe it was their marketing department that screw up and yes a women did put the notice in, not going to reveal name, but was also in the PM's. Now the GM is relatively new to the company and do understand it can take a while to turn things around, so I do give the benefit of the doubt. It's more likely is the old way they did business and they figure it was ok as they done it so long and got away with it with no complaints and it's still wrong. So it a massive screw up on their part is what I chalk it up to. Point blank I don't think they know what they are doing and think it ok to go after even brown box sellers. I did explain to him it not. They need help and a adviser, that I see just from the comments alones and breakdown in communication in departments and talking to him. unfortunately I seen this scenario to often.

Do I think they are a bad horrible company that don't care and is sleazy? Honestly NO. If anything I saw them improving over the years in product design and they have the potential to exceed the competition. They just need to get ducks in a row and focus on important issue like, customer support, direct forum interaction, better communication between departments, better training need to be implemented, so everyone on the same page and regularly and quit enforcing policy on eBay resellers, as nothing good going to come out of it and just bad PR and all they are doing is effectively hurting themselves, as people see no resale value and go to competition. Siglent used items cheap is a good thing and free advertising for you guys, as people getting into the hobby looking for cheap gear will buy one and then when they upgrade if product was good, they more likely buy one new next time around and recommend you. So why would you want to kill that market? Your always have those that will go directly to authorized dealer, so it not going to hurt them, if anything may help them. As most people that getting into the field will buy used gear at first to save money and then remember that brand down the road as they advance in career and if that person in a position in a large company to buy new equipment, they will think back to what they used and had good support. Then will go to a authorized dealer, or you guy directly, as they are going to need the support and warranty. If anything I would put a authorized dealer list on the website, so people know where to go, if they need to go to a authorized dealer, then you don't have to waste people time going though eBay listings. The people that are looking for a bargain are more likely not going to pay suggested retail, they just will look elsewhere. SO PLEASE DROP IT.   

[John Coloccia]

As an end-user, I like to know when I'm buying from a non-authorized distributor and may not be receiving full warranty and service.

The law requires Siglent to honor the warranty regardless of whether the equipment was sold through an authorized dealer, unauthorized dealer, or any other party. New is new, the equipment could be bought and sold by a thousand different distributors and so long as the box wasn't opened the equipment is still new and comes with a warranty. This whole concept of dealers is perplexing to me, the only reason the auto industry has dealers is because it's mandated by law that car companies can't sell directly to customers. This isn't the case with electronics, so I have no idea why Siglent would even want to utilize a dealer network. The bottom line is that regardless of where I bought the new equipment Siglent would have to support it. Furthermore, if I have a problem I want support direct from the manufacturer, I don't want to deal with a middleman.

Because dealers are typically on the hook to provide at least some support. I'm very familiar with dealer agreements. I give you part of my profit, and in return you take care of all those PITA customer issues so I can concentrate building stuff.  See, dealers already have the customer/technical support infrastructure with costs spread out over many many different products. It's no big deal for them. For the manufacturer to do it on a large scale, they need to have an entire department that just costs money, in many different languages, understanding different customs, etc etc. No one really wants to do that if they don't have to.

[nidlaX]

As an end-user, I like to know when I'm buying from a non-authorized distributor and may not be receiving full warranty and service.

The law requires Siglent to honor the warranty regardless of whether the equipment was sold through an authorized dealer, unauthorized dealer, or any other party. New is new, the equipment could be bought and sold by a thousand different distributors and so long as the box wasn't opened the equipment is still new and comes with a warranty.

Not true, and quote some legal precedence if you want to support your claim. Major consumer electronics companies all have such gray market warranty invalidation policies in place, I don't know of a single concurrent legal challenge to their practices.

Also, worth a read: Dealing with Unauthorized Online Dealers: Sales of “Genuine” Products

[nbritton]

As an end-user, I like to know when I'm buying from a non-authorized distributor and may not be receiving full warranty and service.

The law requires Siglent to honor the warranty regardless of whether the equipment was sold through an authorized dealer, unauthorized dealer, or any other party. New is new, the equipment could be bought and sold by a thousand different distributors and so long as the box wasn't opened the equipment is still new and comes with a warranty. This whole concept of dealers is perplexing to me, the only reason the auto industry has dealers is because it's mandated by law that car companies can't sell directly to customers. This isn't the case with electronics, so I have no idea why Siglent would even want to utilize a dealer network. The bottom line is that regardless of where I bought the new equipment Siglent would have to support it. Furthermore, if I have a problem I want support direct from the manufacturer, I don't want to deal with a middleman.

The law where requires this?

In the USA. The Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act, 15 U.S.C. § 2301 and also the Uniform Commercial Code.

[nidlaX]

As an end-user, I like to know when I'm buying from a non-authorized distributor and may not be receiving full warranty and service.

The law requires Siglent to honor the warranty regardless of whether the equipment was sold through an authorized dealer, unauthorized dealer, or any other party. New is new, the equipment could be bought and sold by a thousand different distributors and so long as the box wasn't opened the equipment is still new and comes with a warranty. This whole concept of dealers is perplexing to me, the only reason the auto industry has dealers is because it's mandated by law that car companies can't sell directly to customers. This isn't the case with electronics, so I have no idea why Siglent would even want to utilize a dealer network. The bottom line is that regardless of where I bought the new equipment Siglent would have to support it. Furthermore, if I have a problem I want support direct from the manufacturer, I don't want to deal with a middleman.

The law where requires this?

In the USA. The Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act, 15 U.S.C. § 2301 and also the Uniform Commercial Code.

http://consumerproductslaw.com/gray-market-goods-limiting-warranties/
When I say legal precedence, I mean court cases where consumers have won against corporations on the basis of the code you have cited.

[nbritton]

As an end-user, I like to know when I'm buying from a non-authorized distributor and may not be receiving full warranty and service.

The law requires Siglent to honor the warranty regardless of whether the equipment was sold through an authorized dealer, unauthorized dealer, or any other party. New is new, the equipment could be bought and sold by a thousand different distributors and so long as the box wasn't opened the equipment is still new and comes with a warranty. This whole concept of dealers is perplexing to me, the only reason the auto industry has dealers is because it's mandated by law that car companies can't sell directly to customers. This isn't the case with electronics, so I have no idea why Siglent would even want to utilize a dealer network. The bottom line is that regardless of where I bought the new equipment Siglent would have to support it. Furthermore, if I have a problem I want support direct from the manufacturer, I don't want to deal with a middleman.

The law where requires this?

In the USA. The Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act, 15 U.S.C. § 2301 and also the Uniform Commercial Code.

http://consumerproductslaw.com/gray-market-goods-limiting-warranties/
When I say legal precedence, I mean court cases where consumers have won against corporations on the basis of the code you have cited.

I'm not about spend hours doing case law research for some Siglent junk that I now never plan to buy, you can search for yourself here: http://law.justia.com/cases/

To me (I do have some paralegal training) this is a basic contracts issue. Siglent puts in the box a warranty contract and advertises that the product comes with a warranty, thus that's a contract and it must be honored.

However, I just looked at the actual Siglent warranty contract and they do actually exclude customers who purchased through unauthorized sellers from warranty coverage. This means that if you sell your 2 month old Siglent on eBay the remainder of the 3 year warranty doesn't transfer to the next owner because you are an unauthorized seller. This is bullshit, it's yet another strike against them.

The following warranty applies to all SIGLENT products procured through the SIGLENT approved representatives and/or distributors. Product purchased from outside the SIGLENT network will be serviced by the selling agents and not SIGLENT Technologies.

[OldSchoolTechCorner]

They sure have on website transfer of ownership policy in place. So long customer registers the piece of test equipment in question and has valid serial number and bought though a authorized distributor at one point. Then they sure be allow to be able to transfer ownership of that product. It will raise resale value, which means people will be less hesitant when buying new equipment from Siglent. Dealers sure implement this to, if they are handling the warranty claims. Maybe they sure start a new thread with 'Siglent plans and customers suggestions" This will be one huge step forward in the right direction. It be very beneficial long term, if they are serious about regaining customer trust.

[ataradov]

So have they reversed eBay report yet?

[OldSchoolTechCorner]

So have they reversed eBay report yet?

They claim they started the process, but will find out on Monday when the Vero department is open.

[Bassman59]

Price fixing is fairly common practice for larger Chinese manufacturers. They will insist on a minimum price, supply vendors on the condition that they sell at no lower than minimum price. Vendors are threatened that if they are caught selling for less than minimum set price, their supply will be cut off, and their "authorised" dealer status will be revoked. For example:

In the US, a manufacturer cannot dictate selling prices to it distributors and resellers. That is illegal.

That is also why you see what's called "MAP" or "Minimum Advertised Pricing," and for online orders you often just have to add the product to the shopping cart to see the price at which the retailer will sell the product. A manufacturer can yank a reseller's dealership if the dealer advertises a lower price, but they cannot stop the retailer from selling below MAP or retail list.

Of course, whether one wants to pursue cut-rate Chinese vape-shit sellers in court is another thing entirely. And I would imagine that if manufacturer "A" cuts off a retailer, there's another manufacturer waiting to step in.

[Bassman59]

This whole concept of dealers is perplexing to me, the only reason the auto industry has dealers is because it's mandated by law that car companies can't sell directly to customers.

And guess who lobbied the lawmakers to pass laws making it illegal for manufacturers to sell directly to consumers? You got it: the car dealers. Certainly here in Tucson, there's a politically-powerful car dealer who donates big bucks to legislators (and also has his name plastered on buildings at the local Land Grant Research University's sports facilities, and NOT the science and engineering labs). He was one of the guys who opposed Tesla's direct-to-the-customer sales in Arizona, and one imagines that's a Real Good Reason why Tesla said, "Fuck you, we won't build our battery factory in your city."

Those laws really need to change.

This isn't the case with electronics, so I have no idea why Siglent would even want to utilize a dealer network. The bottom line is that regardless of where I bought the new equipment Siglent would have to support it. Furthermore, if I have a problem I want support direct from the manufacturer, I don't want to deal with a middleman.

Exactly. And now that we have the Internet for sales and distribution, the notion of a rep makes no sense at all.

[OldSchoolTechCorner]

This whole concept of dealers is perplexing to me, the only reason the auto industry has dealers is because it's mandated by law that car companies can't sell directly to customers.

And guess who lobbied the lawmakers to pass laws making it illegal for manufacturers to sell directly to consumers? You got it: the car dealers. Certainly here in Tucson, there's a politically-powerful car dealer who donates big bucks to legislators (and also has his name plastered on buildings at the local Land Grant Research University's sports facilities, and NOT the science and engineering labs). He was one of the guys who opposed Tesla's direct-to-the-customer sales in Arizona, and one imagines that's a Real Good Reason why Tesla said, "Fuck you, we won't build our battery factory in your city."

Those laws really need to change.

This isn't the case with electronics, so I have no idea why Siglent would even want to utilize a dealer network. The bottom line is that regardless of where I bought the new equipment Siglent would have to support it. Furthermore, if I have a problem I want support direct from the manufacturer, I don't want to deal with a middleman.

Exactly. And now that we have the Internet for sales and distribution, the notion of a rep makes no sense at all.

My guess is it would require a huge team dedicated to support and more likely their excuse would be to cost prohibitive and more likely let the dealers deal with the support issues, which is a shit and inefficient way of doing it especially if they have no training program in place and a huge hassle to the end-user.

The solution would be to utilize both and implement a extensive training program for service work. So if equipment needs repair local dealer can handle most issues on the spot and they get a service fee that Siglent pay if under warranty, but if it require more extensive repair, or replacement then can be sent to Siglent for repair, or placement. Customer service sure be handle though Siglent directly and if customer goes to the dealer then dealer can accept it and then check warranty status  and then go to a private network that Siglent setups and be able to check warranty status, look up service data and service manuals, order custom parts require directly from Siglent. HP, Samsung and Epson does this and requires you to take and pass training course. It keep it smooth and efficient, keeps cost down and will put them way ahead.

Like I said they have no clue what they are doing, that the whole issue with Siglent. Grew to fast to quick. They are capable of much better, they are better in my opinion then most Chinese companies, they just need to get their heads out of their asses and get up to speed and quick. 

[Deathwish]

Accusing someone of criminal acts without first having done due diligance to confirm they have is a damage to both their personal reputation as well as their business, I wonder therefore if both or either Libel or Slander has been committed by Siglent and or it's employees in informing ebay the item was counterfeit and posting this view and it's reasons on a public forum.

[ivan747]

The whole DMCA takedown process is a good thing.

Did you have problem accessing the EEVBlog website and this forum last night/this morning when it went down for 5-6 hours or so?
Take a wild guess why that happened... (nothing to do with this Siglent thing BTW)

Not reading the rest of the thread, I'll say DMCA takedown on your server cluster.

[nbritton]

I'm betting the reason that they had a Chinese college intern working on this was because any American would know that kind of activity is unlawful. Being able to sell your used property is ingrained in American culture, hence the reason we're making such a big deal about this. One of the big reasons I bought my Rigol MSO4014 was because I though it might have resell value, so if you start messing with my fair use rights to sell property that I rightfully own I'm going to get real pissed real quick. Rigol and other manufactures, it would be wise to take what has happened in this thread as a warning, if we catch you red handed gaming the system there will be hell to pay.

[electrolust]

The whole DMCA takedown process is a good thing.

Did you have problem accessing the EEVBlog website and this forum last night/this morning when it went down for 5-6 hours or so?
Take a wild guess why that happened... (nothing to do with this Siglent thing BTW)

I did.  And now it's back.  If that was a result of a DMCA request, guess what would have happened without DMCA?  Site would have stayed down, because there is too much liabliity on the network operator's part.