Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"

[thefamilyman]

https://youtu.be/rDqatJPvOfk

[Fungus]

The answer is Don't buy from ether of them, I haven't seen anything from ether Siglent or Rigol that impressed me enough to want to buy it.

The ds1054z doesn't impress you for the money?

There is plenty of HP/Keysight etc out there....

Not everybody has that budget (including me)

[siggi]

Go after them leagly.. -- if you got extra time on your hand to waste, yes, but who would? 

If Siglent have been manipulating used equipment prices or making it harder to trade used equipment through abusive or illegal means - as has been alleged here -  then in the US it's easy to see this leading to a class action lawsuit. The class harmed would be anyone who owns Siglent equipment, as their resale value has been compromised.
If other eBay sellers have been harassed in this manner and step forward, I could see this happening.

Note that this sort of thing will typically not benefit individuals of the harmed class in any significant way, but a successful suit will significantly benefit the legal eagles (vultures?) who file it. So if there's even a whiff of a shadow of possibility of a successful class action of any significant size, there's a lawyer waiting to jump on it with both feet.

[SteveLy]

Price fixing is fairly common practice for larger Chinese manufacturers. They will insist on a minimum price, supply vendors on the condition that they sell at no lower than minimum price. Vendors are threatened that if they are caught selling for less than minimum set price, their supply will be cut off, and their "authorised" dealer status will be revoked. For example:

[c4757p]

Price fixing is fairly common practice for larger Chinese manufacturers. They will insist on a minimum price, supply vendors on the condition that they sell at no lower than minimum price. Vendors are threatened that if they are caught selling for less than minimum set price, their supply will be cut off, and their "authorised" dealer status will be revoked.

There's a biiiiiig difference between that, and trying to control complete third parties selling used kit. Just because the item being sold has a Siglent sticker doesn't give Siglent the right to be involved at all.

Totally different from an agreement between manufacturer and vendor.

[rx8pilot]

I am no lawyer, but I don't think that is price fixing. As far as I know, a manufacturer can make 'no discount' rules for authorized dealer all day long. Price fixing is when competitors ban together to raise prices as a whole in a market segment.

Again, not positive, but I don't think that letter is indicating illegal activity. Harsh maybe, but whatever.

[SteveLy]

I am no lawyer, but I don't think that is price fixing. As far as I know, a manufacturer can make 'no discount' rules for authorized dealer all day long. Price fixing is when competitors ban together to raise prices as a whole in a market segment.

Yeah "price fixing" may be a technical/legal term that does not apply but the end result is the same because if the dealer does not follow the no-discount rules their supply is cut off so they have no choice. Except to find a "brown market" middle man, remove serial numbers, and take on sole responsibility for warranty etc.

[OldSchoolTechCorner]

One thing is I am fair, it was illegal what they did and they have to fully aware of that, so it won't happen again and they take corrective measurements to ensure it won't happen. Yes I will allow them to resolve the issue first and let them withdraw the eBay case, as they claim to have talk to them already. As did receive the phone call and GM does want to make it right, so just have to wait and see and will update if they do so. This thread was put up for others as I know I wasn't the only one after seeing other listings magically disappearing and lack of and these type of practices have to be stopped, it harmful to both the consumer and the company in question. Reason why they have consumer protection and trade laws in place to safe guard from this. They just need to stop placing blame and take full responsibility for their actions and take measures to correct them.

[Tabs]

Siglent isn't convincing anyone. They haven't answered Daves specific questions, so i'm very much leaning towards the market manipulation explanation.

That being said; If the lack of ebay "used Siglent" ads is indeed an indication of a concerted effort by Siglent to control the 2nd hand market of their equipment, then where are all the examples of people complaining?

Siglent equipment is mostly purchased by people who have a background or interest in electronics.
This being the largest online community for T&M/electronics, you would think there would be more EEVBlog members who have similar stories to the OP.
So, are there any members who've tried to sell their used siglent gear (or any other brand) and had similar issues?

If not, then I may be able to give Siglent the benefit of doubt (depending on how they handle this case).

[rx8pilot]

Note that this sort of thing will typically not benefit individuals of the harmed class in any significant way, but a successful suit will significantly benefit the legal eagles (vultures?) who file it. So if there's even a whiff of a shadow of possibility of a successful class action of any significant size, there's a lawyer waiting to jump on it with both feet.

I would not consider a lawyer or firm a vulture in these cases. A class action suit is a big risk with totally unknown return. It requires very little effort and no money from the effected class. It could take a few years of expensive time and effort to get a few $million awarded that has to cover all the expenses and be divided inside the legal group. It's like drilling for oil in some cases - expensive up front with a return from $0 to $millions.

This is not a situtation where an individual should bother going after a result, it is a group effort and the good result is simply stinging a company into operating above board. You may or may not get anything financially, certainly not more than the calculated lost value or something else that is small. When that is multiplied times 10's of thousands it adds up to a big number and essentially a public shaming far beyond the bitching on this thread. Yes, a win would mean that a legal team gets a payday but they likely had to risk thousands of hours in the process. They could also run into a brick wall with no result after spending thousands of hours.

[OldSchoolTechCorner]

Note that this sort of thing will typically not benefit individuals of the harmed class in any significant way, but a successful suit will significantly benefit the legal eagles (vultures?) who file it. So if there's even a whiff of a shadow of possibility of a successful class action of any significant size, there's a lawyer waiting to jump on it with both feet.

I would not consider a lawyer or firm a vulture in these cases. A class action suit is a big risk with totally unknown return. It requires very little effort and no money from the effected class. It could take a few years of expensive time and effort to get a few $million awarded that has to cover all the expenses and be divided inside the legal group. It's like drilling for oil in some cases - expensive up front with a return from $0 to $millions.

This is not a situtation where an individual should bother going after a result, it is a group effort and the good result is simply stinging a company into operating above board. You may or may not get anything financially, certainly not more than the calculated lost value or something else that is small. When that is multiplied times 10's of thousands it adds up to a big number and essentially a public shaming far beyond the bitching on this thread. Yes, a win would mean that a legal team gets a payday but they likely had to risk thousands of hours in the process. They could also run into a brick wall with no result after spending thousands of hours.

Agreed

In this case, lawyer, or firm a vulture is not going to do any good and you have to at least give them a chance to try to correct the issue first and is a group effort. The best route was this thread, as not just for Siglent, but also for other companies that think about pulling what they did, they will think twice.

[rx8pilot]

In this case lawyer or firm a vulture is not going to do any good and you have to at least give them a chance to try to correct the issue first. The best route was this thread, as not just for Siglent, but also for other companies that think about pulling what they did, they will think twice.

Agreed....any lawyer will not lift a pen for a 2 day old issue. They are looking for something they could sink their teeth into and have a decent chance of getting something out of it. Clearly this record needs to play a lot longer to get any legal satisfaction. The responses so far from Siglent are so remarkably poor, however, that I was just anticipating the direction that this could go. The saddest outcome will be getting swept under the rug and no real impact to Siglent.

[ErikTheNorwegian]

One thing is I am fair, it was illegal what they did and they have to fully aware of that, so it won't happen again and they take corrective measurements to ensure it won't happen. Yes I will allow them to resolve the issue first and let them withdraw the eBay case, as they claim to have talk to them already. As did receive the phone call and GM does want to make it right, so just have to wait and see and will update if they do so. This thread was put up for others as I know I wasn't the only one after seeing other listings magically disappearing and lack of and these type of practices have to be stopped, it harmful to both the consumer and the company in question. Reason why they have consumer protection and trade laws in place to safe guard from this. They just need to stop placing blame and take full responsibility for their actions and take measures to correct them.

Totaly agree.. very smart. I think they will qorect their miss, in the best way. Just be a litte paitient over the weekend. 

[OldSchoolTechCorner]

Siglent isn't convincing anyone. They haven't answered Daves specific questions, so i'm very much leaning towards the market manipulation explanation.

That being said; If the lack of ebay "used Siglent" ads is indeed an indication of a concerted effort by Siglent to control the 2nd hand market of their equipment, then where are all the examples of people complaining?

Siglent equipment is mostly purchased by people who have a background or interest in electronics.
This being the largest online community for T&M/electronics, you would think there would be more EEVBlog members who have similar stories to the OP.
So, are there any members who've tried to sell their used siglent gear (or any other brand) and had similar issues?

If not, then I may be able to give Siglent the benefit of doubt (depending on how they handle this case).

That I am wondering to, as would have assume others that had the same happen would have been on this forum? They did mention Rigol on one scope model a few pages back.

[usagi]

It was confirmed to me that our employee completely missed the USED notation on the Ebay ad, which we all suspected.
Our actions were not to "fix prices" (even if we could) or anything else but to protect our customers from purchasing a brown-market instrument that did not carry the 30-day return or support from our reps and distributors in North America provide. In our attempt to do the "right thing" we have unfortunately angered many people.

if you look at the demand that was sent, not only did siglent demand he provide the serial number to prove it wasn't counterfeit, siglent ALSO demanded he raise the price!

After we confirm the serial number, we will withdraw the complaint on Ebay.
And please change your price on Ebay.

[FlyingHacker]

With that said, putting someone in a bad spot who has come by to do You the service of interviewing them about their company would be in Very Bad Form.

I dunno. It always worked for Ed Bradley...

[FlyingHacker]

I do think, if you look at it this way. siglents HAS to protect their leagal selling channel, in that, both protechting both the distro AND the consumer.
Is that wrong?

Actually, yes. It is wrong, and in the U.S. it is illegal. You cannot tell your retail sales outlet what they can charge for goods. Even minimum advertised prices are questionably legal.

The market is supposed to be free. That means consumers have the freedom to buy from whomever they choose, and retailers have the freedom to sell for whatever they choose. If reseller A wants to sell Siglent gear for half price (at a loss) to attract new customer then they can do that.

Certainly in this case we are talking about an end user selling his kit. In that case, no matter new or used he is free to sell it for whatever he damn well pleases. And no company can come along and abuse the DMCA to force him to take it down. Knowingly doing this requires you do commit perjury, as the authors of the DMCA, although complete morons, at least had the foresight to see how this could be abused.

Typically these types of things are covered up by the company giving the offended party a bunch of free gear in exchange for a gag clause, forbidding them to speak about it.

I wonder how many other forums and news outlets have picked this story up?

[AF6LJ]

With that said, putting someone in a bad spot who has come by to do You the service of interviewing them about their company would be in Very Bad Form.

I dunno. It always worked for Ed Bradley...

In two words;
Size Matters

[OldSchoolTechCorner]

I do think, if you look at it this way. siglents HAS to protect their leagal selling channel, in that, both protechting both the distro AND the consumer.
Is that wrong?

Actually, yes. It is wrong, and in the U.S. it is illegal. You cannot tell your retail sales outlet what they can charge for goods. Even minimum advertised prices are questionably legal.

The market is supposed to be free. That means consumers have the freedom to buy from whomever they choose, and retailers have the freedom to sell for whatever they choose. If reseller A wants to sell Siglent gear for half price (at a loss) to attract new customer then they can do that.

Certainly in this case we are talking about an end user selling his kit. In that case, no matter new or used he is free to sell it for whatever he damn well pleases. And no company can come along and abuse the DMCA to force him to take it down. Knowingly doing this requires you do commit perjury, as the authors of the DMCA, although complete morons, at least had the foresight to see how this could be abused.

Typically these types of things are covered up by the company giving the offended party a bunch of free gear in exchange for a gag clause, forbidding them to speak about it.

I wonder how many other forums and news outlets have picked this story up?

On this one

http://antiqueradios.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=286553&p=2396621#p2396621

[HighVoltage]

WOW!
I just read the whole thread and can not believe what I read. Just a month ago, I sold my last Siglent item here on eevblog and I am glad it is gone. I think this tread will stick with me for a long long time and I will be reminded of it, every time I see a siglent item anywhere in the world.
Hopefully other manufactures will read this and learn from it.

[nidlaX]

FYI, eBay have themselves sued companies for frivolous misuse of DMCA take downs. If they receive more complaints against companies like Siglent, they will investigate. Write to eBay if you think there is a real problem going on with any company trying to manipulate listings.

[TerminalJack505]

Siglent isn't convincing anyone. They haven't answered Daves specific questions, so i'm very much leaning towards the market manipulation explanation.

That being said; If the lack of ebay "used Siglent" ads is indeed an indication of a concerted effort by Siglent to control the 2nd hand market of their equipment, then where are all the examples of people complaining?

Siglent equipment is mostly purchased by people who have a background or interest in electronics.
This being the largest online community for T&M/electronics, you would think there would be more EEVBlog members who have similar stories to the OP.
So, are there any members who've tried to sell their used siglent gear (or any other brand) and had similar issues?

If not, then I may be able to give Siglent the benefit of doubt (depending on how they handle this case).

BBM.  That's a good question, actually.  I think it is reasonable to give Siglent the benefit of doubt like you say unless more individuals report being treated similarly as the OP.

I guess one of my reasons for jumping to conclusions is that Siglent have already been caught once trying to "jack the system" as mentioned by Dave earlier in this thread.

[Karel]

Whats patetic, is as i say, twisting and turning every word, sentence , grammer and speling in the Siglents answers.
For what, just ranting about a employees faults?

Huh? People shouldn't get upset or talking about it when a company abuses the DCMA takedown system?
For me it's pretty clear that this was not an isolated incident or just one dumb employee.
It seems like it's company policy and so far they have nothing done to show it isn't.
All they are trying to do now is damage control.

[Biff383]

  I feel very bad for the Siglent distributors . In fact Steve if you would like a job in the EPS industry just let me know.

  Companies make mistakes. This one is a real boner.

  It shouldn't take out  the folks at the bottom but it does
...but unfortunately if

[_Andrew_]

I have had a good read of this thread and had a few thoughts.

If it is a case of an over zealous new employee then they need to sort out there induction process.
I have worked in environments where it was mandatory for all employees to complete corporate compliance training and pass and achieve a 100% pass in the exam each year.
This was to ensure that everyone was aware of practises that are not permitted because of being anticompetitive, price fixing, bribery ect...

So what ever the case if anything comes of it unless there is any evidence to prove otherwise it is the actions of a rogue employee.

Authorised dealers will be able to offer certain services that may not be accessible or available from grey market suppliers (latest firmware, software, product training...). As for product warranties for the end users they may have protection under the sale of goods laws in there country. 

So the comments that authorised dealers can only offer warranty cover that you will not get from a grey market supplier may not be entirely accurate. Infact in some countries the trading laws can and often exceed that of a manufacturers warranty.

In some countries there are even distance training laws that permit a purchaser to return an item with in a given period from purchase. So the ability to return a product if you don't like it being only avaliable from a authorised dealers may also not be accurate.

As for warranties offered to authorised dealers not all dealers benefit from warranty schemes from manufacturers. In many cases suppliers will only warrant out of box failures with in a specified time frame from the date of delivery to the distributor. Any units that fall out side of this the cost of warranting the product is the responsibility of the supplier.  This is often why you can find find bulk clearance pallet loads of broken warranty returned equipment for sale on eBay, often suppliers trying to recupe cost of items they have had to replace or refund under warranty when they can not return them to the manufacturer.
Where I have involved with products where manufacturers only warranty for out of box failures for a period, a provision was set aside from the sale of the product to offset against the cost of any warranty clames out side of out side of box failures.