Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"

[rx8pilot]

I patiently waited for some official responses from Siglent. I was not surprised that they were overwhelmingly disappointing.

Protecting the customer was the intent? Laughable. Silly. More importantly, YOU ARE INSULTING A WHOLE BUNCH OF VERY INTELLIGENT PEOPLE!! Siglent - you are not selling trinkets to uninformed and uneducated customers. Trying to spin this in any way other than you were operating in a shady and likely illegal way that would NEVER benefit anyone but Siglent is ridiculous. This will not and can not be solved with an apology or a simple explanation about how it will not happen in the future. This is something for the authorities to look into.

No one's going to jail, guys.

Perhaps not for this particular infraction. The purpose of an official inquiry is that when there is a forceful revelation of internal operations - the jail time is hidden under the hood. A company that openly operates this way seems to have a very high probability of being worse behind closed doors. This forum and all of its steam will not amount to the a fraction of the heat that the DOJ and FTC can bring. Just like the OP was 'Guilty Until Proven Innocent', the FTC, SEC, or whatever US agency has jurisdiction will bite first and ask questions later. When I say bite, I mean BITE. I have seen this from the inside of a company that hired me as a contractor for years - they were shady. One day, the operation was forcibly shutdown without notice. After it was shutdown, they had a chance to fight it but by then it was a public take down and the business was doomed even if they were innocent (which they weren't as it turned out)

If we set up an account to hire a proper legal team to prepare the complaint - this would force the Siglent underbelly to be exposed if they want any of the US market. If they expose their underbelly, I suspect there would be a few surprises. Maybe, Maybe not. This real impact of an investigation is that is is a TOTAL pain in the ass and very expensive. This is especially true for an off shore company that is not familiar with US law. If they were protecting themselves from a few shady sellers to save a few bucks, a federal investigation will sting like a thousand bees.

I will contribute cash to the cause of getting a proper legal complaint prepared. This is the first step to getting an understanding of what just happened and what else we do not know about yet. Relying on Siglent to come clean is futile at best.

[Karel]

I just communicated with the CEO of Siglent an the head of our European operations. ...

Ofcourse, no word about Siglent's abuse of the DMCA takedown.

Is Siglent going to admit that they abused the DCMA takedown notice?

[rx8pilot]

Is Siglent going to admit that they abused the DCMA takedown notice?

Only by legal force.

[ErikTheNorwegian]

i think there is a lot of conspiracy theories here and  we, and probably Siglent can be without.. give them a break, it’s just  stupid how this case has been blown out of proportions. It’s ONE case, and it’s been dealt with.. 

Lesson learnt.

What lesson? To get away with engaging in criminal activity?

If you believe that this was a single incident and an honest mistake then you haven't really been paying attention, and if you believe that it won't happen again then you're naive.

Abusing the law is pretty standard practise for Chinese companies. Engage in dirty tricks, and when caught apologize, rinse and repeat. The only difference is that they usually aren't stupid enough to try that in other countries.

So after all this anger and conspiracy, .. what can you do? 

Stop shoping Siglent--   yes..  but other may not. 
Go after them leagly.. -- if you got extra time on your hand to waste, yes, but who would? 
Wasting keystrokes in anger and rage, yes you do a good job.   

They has been taken with theier ass bare.. no youre finished fucking them.. life goes on!   

Its on the web, will stay here longer than us.. life goes on. Analyzing every comment, word and grammer from Siglent is just pathetic..

Thats my opinion..

Erik

[AF6LJ]

Asian culture, society and morality is often much different than what is typical in the West. This is where Western companies that enter into China and Asia can get into serious trouble when they impress and believe their culture, society and business practices are the same with a Eastern Twist.

East-Asian companies that enter into Western markets experience a similar set of problems and difficulties.

Losing face in Asian culture can be worst than death.

This book can help gain an understanding of the cultural differences between East -vs- West.
http://www.amazon.com/Its-All-Chinese-Me-Etiquette/dp/0804840792


Bernice

Suit yourself.  Perhaps I'm cynical.  Given my experiences and watching other people outsource production in China, I have learned that the cultural and ethical framework is not that same as in the western world.  An employee at Siglent China would not independently start submitting DCMA/trademark requests.  I can also see that when asked about it from Steve, a worker would apologize and take the blame rather than implicate their managers, letting them save face.   

This is an object lesson why one should deal with people who share the same moral values as they embrace.

[seabell]

At that point, if a buyers still wishes to purchase from one of these unauthorized dealers then it is totally their right and freedom to do so. They will not be protected by our North American distributor's 30 day money back guarantee. We will also not have a record of that unit so we will not be able to contact them regarding any updates, upgrades, etc.

Don't try that BULLSHIT, Barfield.

Neither Siglent nor your distributor Tequipment attempted to contact me regarding a flaw with the SDM3055 I bought earlier this year. The thing crapped out on me the third time it was switched on. Less than thirty minutes prior use. Turns out it was a KNOWN BUG in the firmware that I could have corrected by upgrading to a newer version IF I had been warned about it. Instead it cost me an additional $180 in mail and Customs fees - plus a good few hours of my time - to get it fixed by you.

Your Company and its products are all 'brown' as far as I'm concerned.

[Fungus]

Siglent has been seeing "brown market" equipment sold on eBay, Alibaba, Amazon and other sites. In other words, these sales have been through "unauthorized" dealers. This is not illegal, as far as I know.
The problem that this has been causing, and we have seen here in the USA, is that these companies do no support our customers after the sale.

Caveat emptor.

They do not have our latest firmware, news on issues, fixes, etc.

Isn't all that on your website, free to download?

In North America we offer a 30-day right to return an instrument if the customer is not happy for any reason at all. If they want to return the unit, the customer contacts the dealer from which it was purchased and the dealer issues them an RMA number and a refund upon return of the item. Remember, the dealer has the customer's money, not Siglent.

These brown-market companies would not be able to offer this return policy.

Again: Caveat emptor - if you need that return policy then don't buy on eBay.

Our actions were not to "fix prices" (even if we could) or anything else but to protect our customers from purchasing a brown-market instrument that did not carry the 30-day return or support from our reps

So what was that email telling him to "raise the price" all about...?

I have recommended that we post on all Siglent websites a notice that warns everyone of potential brown-market dealers and WHY we are warning them - namely, little or no support.

I have also recommended that we immediately stop this practice of actively looking for brown-market distributors. Maybe we should post a list of identified ones on our web site? How does everyone feel is we could (or should?) do this?

At that point, if a buyers still wishes to purchase from one of these unauthorized dealers then it is totally their right and freedom to do so.

It was their right long before then. 

They will not be protected by our North American distributor's 30 day money back guarantee. We will also not have a record of that unit so we will not be able to contact them regarding any updates, upgrades, etc.

Just honor the hardware warranty, that's all that that the small number of people who buy brown imports on eBay actually want.

They're usually hobby users, not juicy corporate accounts. They don't need 'reps' to contact them regarding updates, they're capable of downloading the latest firmware from your web site (right??)

These people can go on to reccomend Siglent products when they get real jobs in big companies based on their good experience with Siglent products.

Or not - they might feel burned after Siglent stamped on them and wrecked their eBay account for trying to sell their used equipment after an upgrade (to another Siglent device, no less...)

[OldSchoolTechCorner]

They definitely going to have to work out some issues and change policy. Seem to be a major breakdown in communication between one to the other. That I saw early on in the thread, as I don't believe the GM knew the full situation till later on, not even sure if the CEO knew about the issue? That was clear by the way he responded and was first to apologize not knowing the full details. The marketing manager, or the lady they claim that sent out the notice on the other hand, knew exactly what she was doing, evident in the follow up PM to readjust price and was used to protect local distributors, which is illegal and just a bad move.

Now that being said do I think they make bad products? The answer is no, otherwise won't have upgraded to the SDG2122X in the first place and reason I listed the older model on eBay. I think the price for performance is great and if Siglent made some major changes and focus on the right areas, improving communication with the engineers and software developers so they can work out firmware bugs much quicker will be a huge step forward in the right direction. As hardware is not the issue and good quality. If they get that accomplished, I think they can surpass what the competition has available for the price and be a major player. Even with the current dispute in process I still somehow have some hope for them, just maybe not with the current structure they have in place. As using a marketing manager to watch eBay listings to she can enforce policy is a huge waste of time and resources, not to mention it will get you into serious legal trouble. One area they sure consider is being more proactive on the forums instead and listening to customers for what they want, complaints and bug reports and assigning a staff someone that a engineer, or software developer to read forum treads and take in complaints directly. So can be more efficient and get firmware updates faster and better support overall. That how you win the trust of your customers back an take it to the next level. Dropped the whole grey area enforcement of eBay listing altogether, it won't end well, no matter how you go about it and it's non productive and will damage what took years to built up. Yes everyone make mistakes, it how we learn, the mistake she did was not really a mistake, she had her reasons, or was instructed to.

I am only saying this as I work with large to midsize companies and seen first hand them succeed and fail and usually when they fail, it could have been avoided, in most cases and is usually due to lack of wanting to change and sticking to old habits and enforcing shady practices. I hate to see Siglent go down this road, as after the improvements I seen them do with the hardware, it be truly a shame to throw it all away on stupid shady practices, if anything is having a opposite effect on them. You don't want to kill the USED market value, as then people will see no resale value, or hard to sell and buy from the competitor.     

 

[OldSchoolTechCorner]

Perhaps it is a good idea to have a list with authorised distributors on Siglent's website. I bought a piece of Siglent gear last year and the support from this dealer was below zero so I strongly doubt I bought it from an authorised dealer.

Having said that: going after the 'brown market' yourself isn't a good idea. Some non-official dealers will offer great service and other official dealers may give poor service. Its much like buying a car where the service from an official dealer may be total crap. In the end people will vote with their wallets and problems between a buyer and seller are an issue between the both of them. No need to interfere with that.

Another very good suggestion.

[OldSchoolTechCorner]

This book can help gain an understanding of the cultural differences between East -vs- West.
http://www.amazon.com/Its-All-Chinese-Me-Etiquette/dp/0804840792

Even better, this is a book written by a consultant in china who inspected factories and acted as a go-between for westerners looking to manufacturer in China.  Best book ever on the subject.
Poorly Made in China: An Insider's Account of the China Production Game

Thanks going to read that one.

[Fungus]

Perhaps it is a good idea to have a list with authorised distributors on Siglent's website. I bought a piece of Siglent gear last year and the support from this dealer was below zero so I strongly doubt I bought it from an authorised dealer.

Another very good suggestion.

Not going to happen. Siglent don't want grey importers to be able to claim "authorised by Siglent"

(and rightly so - they'll never give companies the same post-sales support as a local office).

[Fungus]

The whole DMCA takedown process is a good thing.

Did you have problem accessing the EEVBlog website and this forum last night/this morning when it went down for 5-6 hours or so?
Take a wild guess why that happened... (nothing to do with this Siglent thing BTW)

Details, man, details! 

(in a rant/other thread, obviously...)

[Simon]

I got a set of epson compatible cartridges for a couple of quid taken off ebay because I had mistakenly advertised them as epson ones rather than call them compatibles. Yes it seems all companies have someone scanning ebay for potential infringements, I seem to remember the same problem with some scalextrics.

[AF6LJ]

Perhaps it is a good idea to have a list with authorised distributors on Siglent's website. I bought a piece of Siglent gear last year and the support from this dealer was below zero so I strongly doubt I bought it from an authorised dealer.

Another very good suggestion.

Not going to happen. Siglent don't want grey importers to be able to claim "authorised by Siglent"

(and rightly so - they'll never give companies the same post-sales support as a local office).

i am appalled by the siglent replies in this thread, but i am not surprised by the poor attitude. TBH i was expecting something like this to happen, and it did. i am glad i never buy anything from siglent.

lets see what the CEO will say in daves program, is he even still coming to ride this tsunami of a thread?

(imaginery enactment ... CEO to dave "hey dave, close this thread, i will give you USD50k worth of scopes, come on, yes?"  )

If it doesn't get brought up don't hold it against Dave.
For one thing Dave doesn't have a dog in this fight, and if Dave should decide to bring it up it can't do Dave any good in regard to his relationship with Siglent.

I think the subject is best left on the forum.

[Fungus]

lets see what the CEO will say in daves program, is he even still coming to ride this tsunami of a thread?

If it doesn't get brought up don't hold it against Dave.
For one thing Dave doesn't have a dog in this fight, and if Dave should decide to bring it up it can't do Dave any good in regard to his relationship with Siglent.

I think the subject is best left on the forum.

What relationship with Siglent? Dave's loyalties are to the people who watch his videos and read these threads.

[Fungus]

i am appalled by the siglent replies in this thread, but i am not surprised by the poor attitude. TBH i was expecting something like this to happen, and it did. i am glad i never buy anything from siglent.

It's corporate mentality. All "sales reps" and "company accounts".

No thought at all given to hobbyists, home users or second hand sales (what are they??)

[AF6LJ]

lets see what the CEO will say in daves program, is he even still coming to ride this tsunami of a thread?

If it doesn't get brought up don't hold it against Dave.
For one thing Dave doesn't have a dog in this fight, and if Dave should decide to bring it up it can't do Dave any good in regard to his relationship with Siglent.

I think the subject is best left on the forum.

What relationship with Siglent? Dave's loyalties are to the people who watch his videos and read these threads.

There is a relationship of some kind or why would the CEO be stopping by for an interview??

With that said, putting someone in a bad spot who has come by to do You the service of interviewing them about their company would be in Very Bad Form.

I wouldn't do it.

[Wuerstchenhund]

i think there is a lot of conspiracy theories here and  we, and probably Siglent can be without.. give them a break, it’s just  stupid how this case has been blown out of proportions. It’s ONE case, and it’s been dealt with.. 

Lesson learnt.

What lesson? To get away with engaging in criminal activity?

If you believe that this was a single incident and an honest mistake then you haven't really been paying attention, and if you believe that it won't happen again then you're naive.

Abusing the law is pretty standard practise for Chinese companies. Engage in dirty tricks, and when caught apologize, rinse and repeat. The only difference is that they usually aren't stupid enough to try that in other countries.

So after all this anger and conspiracy, .. what can you do? 

How about report it to the authorities for a start? And hold them publicly accountable?

Stop shoping Siglent--   yes..  but other may not. 
Go after them leagly.. -- if you got extra time on your hand to waste, yes, but who would? 
Wasting keystrokes in anger and rage, yes you do a good job.   

They has been taken with theier ass bare.. no youre finished fucking them.. life goes on!   

Its on the web, will stay here longer than us.. life goes on. Analyzing every comment, word and grammer from Siglent is just pathetic..

Holding a perpetrator accountable for his crimes is "pathetic"? Seriously?  The only pathetic thing is that you're obviously sorry for Siglent.

It may be different in Norway but in most democratic western societies laws apply to everyone, and if businesses violates these laws then they have to bear the consequences. If they don't then it will just send out the message that criminal activity is OK.

[OldSchoolTechCorner]

i am appalled by the siglent replies in this thread, but i am not surprised by the poor attitude. TBH i was expecting something like this to happen, and it did. i am glad i never buy anything from siglent.

It's corporate mentality. All "sales reps" and "company accounts".

No thought at all given to hobbyists, home users or second hand sales (what are they??)

That part of the problem. Unfortunately a wide spread issue, it not just Siglent that does this. People in this thread also mention "Rigol" did this to and a whole other thread about listings getting pulled from them on a mass scale. I caught "Auneaudio" do this as well a year ago.

[Seekonk]

Just more bad corporate behavior that Dave should address.  Just want to add my vote that this is an issue.  I believe this action was deliberate and not an isolated event.  It is a different culture.  I've been to China and had to negotiate for hours over almost meaningless economic details.  It is the strategic thinking of a ten year old that doesn't see the larger picture.  You have to admire this single minded determination that is focused on winning every issue.  Deming doesn't stand a chance in this country.  They could have resolved this issue quickly.  Just another company not ready for prime time with dirt ball management.  Buy from them and this is how they will treat you if there is an issue.

[TiN]

Wow.

OldSchoolTechCorner thanks for heads up. Not that I own or planned to get any S** gear, but this is just all bad.

Lesson for other manufacturers who may read this - don't do politics in engineering, just focus on making the stuff good. And then only time would tell if your piece of gear still being sold on ebays for hundreds even 30 years after, like it's happening with respected brands today..

[AF6LJ]

The answer is Don't buy from ether of them, I haven't seen anything from ether Siglent or Rigol that impressed me enough to want to buy it. There is plenty of HP/Keysight etc out there....

[Wuerstchenhund]

Just more bad corporate behavior that Dave should address.  Just want to add my vote that this is an issue.  I believe this action was deliberate and not an isolated event.  It is a different culture.  I've been to China and had to negotiate for hours over almost meaningless economic details.  It is the strategic thinking of a ten year old that doesn't see the larger picture.  You have to admire this single minded determination that is focused on winning every issue.  Deming doesn't stand a chance in this country. 

Nope, it's a completely different mentality than the Japanese.

They could have resolved this issue quickly.  Just another company not ready for prime time with dirt ball management.  Buy from them and this is how they will treat you if there is an issue.

To be fair, how they treat customers if there's an issue could already be seen by how the dealt (or better, not dealt) with the bugs their most expensive (outside China) scope series (SDS2000) still suffers from more than a year after launch.

[OldSchoolTechCorner]

The lady they claim that took the action was clearly deliberate and she admitted to it in PM's. Unfortunately they will have to bear the consequences as a result and hopefully make it right and start taking proactive steps to resolved this issue and ditch the shady practices all together and place focus in more important areas.

[Fungus]

There is a relationship of some kind or why would the CEO be stopping by for an interview??

As a PR exercise? Free advertising.

With that said, putting someone in a bad spot who has come by to do You the service of interviewing them about their company would be in Very Bad Form.

I wouldn't do it.

That's up to Dave.

I wouldn't expect to do a whole video on it, but if Siglent really steps up to the mark and fixes this situation then why not mention that? It's good PR, it's exactly the sort of thing hobby-level buyers want to hear when evaluating Siglent products.