Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"

[crispy_tofu]

I wonder if there were more people who had their used Siglents taken down or if it was a one-off...

[EEVblog]

When someone tries to compete against an authorized distributor (who has invested time and money to carry our line)  at some discounted price, the legitimate ones do not like it and we fully understand that. We can not - and we do not - tell our distributors what price they can or cannot charge. We do, however, have the common practice of not allowing them to advertise at a price different from list price. Again, this is a very common industry practice. But I will repeat, our distributors can sell at whatever price they wish.

Thanks for responding directly on the forum Steve, I'm sure everyone here appreciates that greatly.

Also, forgive me for not having read the whole thread, so I may have missed something.

But it seems as though you still think it's OK to issue a DMCA takedown request against an unauthorised dealer on ebay, is this correct?
If so, under what law do you think this is valid?

Let's play hypothetical (could could happen in any country/region):
If someone starts selling "unauthorised" (but not fake) Siglent gear on ebay, importing them and reselling them. But they clearly take their own photos (so no copyright issues apply) and don't use the Siglent logo (so no trademark issue applies), and they even say they aren't an authorised dealer. Do you still think you have the right to issue a DMCA takedown on that seller?

[smgvbest]

I believe the better question is why did they (Siglent) not contact the seller and verify the claim before issuing the DCMA claim with un-verified information.  This has hurt an innocent 'Individual', damaged his eBay status and atleast for those on this blog damaged Siglents reputation greatly.   All due to an unverified claim on Siglents Part.

For me as an individual, eBay will do nothing unless I contact the seller first (been there) so why did eBay even act on this with no proof of Siglents claim? Both Siglent and eBay have fault here IMHO.

[splin]

4) Regain the trust of our customers (This is in the hands of our customers. We will never knowingly or purposely make a mistake like this again).

Wrong, it's in your hands, do something to regain that trust.   

Precisely. How about, at the least:

(a) promising to publish the full results of the internal inquiry into this incident (that doesn't just blame it on a new member of staff without the 'extraordinary proof' needed to match the seemingly 'extraordinary claim' that senior management had no knowledge of what was going off)

(b) demonstrating how you understand that your behaviour was totally unacceptable in western markets and what processes and procedures you are putting in place to prevent such behaviour occurring in the future.

(c) show that all victims of this process, authorised or not, have been compensated appropriately.

[usagi]

This is a fascinating story and a relevant one.  I was in fact thinking about selling my SDG1025 soon and wonder why I hadn't seen any other used ones on ebay.  Here's my 2 cents on the situation:

.....
2) Change our policies / procedures to prevent this from happening again (In progress).

Siglent, I would suggest that you simply stop policing your products on ebay.  No good will come of it no matter what your policy is changed to be.

^^^ this.

regardless of what policy you have about resellers, filing wrongful trademark claims to try to enforce your reseller chain WILL GET YOU IN DEEP LEGAL TROUBLE.

your change to your policies / procedures should be to completely cease ebay enforcement of siglent resale.

[EEVblog]

For me as an individual, eBay will do nothing unless I contact the seller first (been there) so why did eBay even act on this with no proof of Siglents claim?

Because it was a DMCA request (correct me if I am wrong). That is the holy grail, acted upon with the utmost urgency by any ISP, web host company, or the likes of ebay (who probably have an entire team devoted to it). These companies are required by US law to automatically remove the material under question within 48 hours. You are literally guilty until proven innocent when on the receiving end of a DMCA notice.
I don't blame ebay in the slightest.

[mcinque]

A Siglent employee - a recent college graduate - mistook...
English is not this employee's first language...
did not do due diligence in checking...

Bullshit. I've seen this kind of crappy replies so much times from ridiculous companies caught with their pants down.

Accusing the last young employee (maybe with sick childs and parents at home, why not?) it's only a COWARD behavior. Siglent, shame on you, you suck.

[EEVblog]

regardless of what policy you have about resellers, filing wrongful trademark claims to try to enforce your reseller chain WILL GET YOU IN LEGAL TROUBLE.

Actually, to be fair to Siglent, as I understand it, a Class 35 Trademark (I have not checked if they have one, but presumably they do) covers the usage of your logo on online stores and such.
So Siglent are likely within their rights to enforce that Trademark if someone is using their logo on an online store (or presumably an ebay listing).
But I'm not sure what happens in the hypothetical case I proposed above and the seller does not use their logo or try to appear to be an official store or dealer.
At best it would look bad to most customers eyes to do this, as has been evidenced here.

I'm sure few would quibble about Siglent trying to take down an unauthorised store that was truly trying to look and sound like they are authorised.

[OldSchoolTechCorner]

For me as an individual, eBay will do nothing unless I contact the seller first (been there) so why did eBay even act on this with no proof of Siglents claim?

Because it was a DMCA request (correct me if I am wrong). That is the holy grail, acted upon with the utmost urgency by any ISP, web host company, or the likes of ebay (who probably have an entire team devoted to it). These companies are required by US law to automatically remove the material under question within 48 hours. You are literally guilty until proven innocent when on the receiving end of a DMCA notice.
I don't blame ebay in the slightest.

Plus 1

Wasn't just a simple DMCA, as could have counter it and had it removed pretty much ASAP, it was to affirm alleged trademark infringement, which is a lot worst and can't file a counter notice. So is a huge process to get a withdraw and a criminal act on their part, as was clearly used for "price fixing", which they can't do and they already admitted to and not only admitted to it, they had the nerve via PM to ask me to raise the price. Everything in the ad was of my own, nothing copied, or used and clearly mark as a used item and never claimed to be a authorized reseller, I didn't even have the original box and only sold it to upgrade to newer model. So zero reason for their actions.

I also notice lack of and disappearing listings of other used Siglent related gear on eBay. One function generator that same as the one I had listed, I saw three weeks ago that I based my price off of and no longer can be found, so do suspect this is a common practice.

eBay just following the law and not at fault, as they would be held liable otherwise.

[pickle9000]

I wonder how far this will spread as an issue and who else does it?

This does deserve an eevblab.

Bad PR for Siglent.

[Fungus]

....please change your price on Ebay.

Thanks for your understanding.Wish you all the best.

Sincerely,
SIGLENT Marketing Department

I think that about sums it up.

And using DMCA to shut down the listing? Pathetic (and probably perjury).

[jancumps]

And please change your price on Ebay.

What more is there to say?

[jancumps]

....please change your price on Ebay.

Thanks for your understanding.Wish you all the best.

Sincerely,
SIGLENT Marketing Department

I think that about sums it up.

And using DMCA to shut down the listing? Pathetic.

And no bad english in that PM, so no starter non-english young girl to blame this time.

[rf-loop]

Year 2010 there was situation where Rigol send warning letter about "counterfeit" or some other kind of illegal sales in eBay. Result was that nearly all DS1052E disappear from eBay.

I have not possible at this time for find more documentations, including one public warning letter from Rigol.

But here in forum I find something
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/ds1052e-removed-from-ebay/

It was also some amount different case. These was new units and lot of listings was stopped and if I remember right even some eBay accounts perhaps closed. At this time it looks like Rigol use "brute force" to eBay and I do not know how they did it.

----------
But here, OP, sell his second hand SDG just as he have also sold his used 4 channel  SDS1xxxCFL.

There is not any reason in this case. Everyone can sell his own used equipments what ever price. No one can deny it or blame.
Very clearly this is some kind of mistake from Siglent and after I read this whole thread my opinion is that Siglent need do something more now for real apologize this terrible case.

Also in eBay listing read cleary it was used and condition is mint.

Also I. as Seiglent seller, can sell used Siglent equipment if I have one and I can sell it what ever price I want.
I'm seller but also I'm user. I do lot of electronic things and here is also equipments from my own use, independent of name, HP, Tektronix, R&S, Rigol, Owon, Siglent in my own use. Just after I look I need sell them as used and invest to some new equipment what I need, I will sell these and no one can stop it what ever price I ask.

Selling new equipments, it is bit different.

We can never do work for even low level support if we do not get any salary for this work.  Handling warranty cases, for doing sellers own quality control and even keep some kind of pre- and after sales product support for potential customers and of course always for customers who have purchased.  If some one need help just for "how to use" equipment in some special case. This work is not free but is funded By collecting small slice for it from  from every unit selling price.

This is why "carton shipper sellers" are different and they are ones who destroy whole product support pushing prices so down that there is not room for any extra work but just receive money from customer and do shipping.
 
Take example. In stock there is factory made equipment but after then there have new FW. Do I sell equipment with old FW. Mainstream no. During quality control tests I will mostly also take care about FW. Specially if theere have been some bad issues with some FW and if end user do update he may go to problem like as "fun" as upside down display or something like it. For avoid this quality seller need also take some care about these and update FW himself (specially if there is kown issue with some HW) for avoid end user problems as much as possible. But all understand there is not free lounges.

Be free to sell your second hand Siglent.

Btw, also I have one used SDG5082 for sell but only in Finland.

Really, Siglent, we do not want ANY this kind of hassle! 

[EEVblog]

And please change your price on Ebay.

What more is there to say?

Well that's the crux of it.
Siglent claim it was the mistake of a junior employee. Ok, fair enough, that happens. But that junior employee must have been instructed to look for this particular issue, take the action they did, and inform the user to change the price. Surely?
If not, and the junior employee thought all this up on their own, then I say give them a promotion for being so pro-active 

I think Siglent need to clarify if they have/had a policy which actively targeted non-authorised dealers on ebay and other sites, and if that policy included asking them to change their price.

[OldSchoolTechCorner]

....please change your price on Ebay.

Thanks for your understanding.Wish you all the best.

Sincerely,
SIGLENT Marketing Department

I think that about sums it up.

And using DMCA to shut down the listing? Pathetic (and probably perjury).

It is perjury, no questions about that and used for price fixing. 

[Fungus]

Can't wait for the upcoming interview with the boss of Siglent... 

[engiadina]

Just visited their web site for curiosity. They publish a slogan for their X-Series, named "I am X-...."

Basically than slogan is used (and protected) by Nikon since some years. "I am Nikon" is their advertising campaign, Siglent copied shamelessly.

From my experience I have learned that chinese business people are very often without ethics and act rather selfish. That sort of works within the chinese community but fails miserably if you expand internationally.

So I tend to assume, that this incident was NOT the mistake of one young and unexperienced employee. It looks much more like their ususal company policy. And the excuses one could read in this thread sound EXACTLY like one of those meaningless excuses I personally heard from several chinese factory managers. Next week similar sh*t happens again. They just don' care.

What they do really care about except their own family is money. If some fault costs them really money, they learn. Only then. Everything else is moreless meaningless and without result, based on my experience.

[Wirehead]

Can't wait for the upcoming interview with the boss of Siglent... 

I think Dave should put that on hold really. Popping up on EEVblog is great marketing, but they really don't deserve that after they clearly stated "up the prices, then it's ok" in that PM. This should be cleared up first, before giving them a platform...

[madires]

So I tend to assume, that this incident was NOT the mistake of one young and unexperienced employee. It looks much more like their ususal company policy. And the excuses one could read in this thread sound EXACTLY like one of those meaningless excuses I personally heard from several chinese factory managers. Next week similar sh*t happens again. They just don' care.

What they do really care about except their own family is money. If some fault costs them really money, they learn. Only then. Everything else is moreless meaningless and without result, based on my experience.

Actually that's true for most companies. Simply vote with your wallet and don't forget to tell that the company involved! To be able to learn they have to link whatever they have done wrong or bad with the drop in revenue.

[haveissues]

And please change your price on Ebay.

What more is there to say?

That does sum it up.  "give is the serial number and change your price was the reply after Siglent knew this was a private party sale of used equipment.  Tough to bullshit your way out of that one.  Maybe they will dig up a blind orphan to blame that one on?

[poida_pie]

If not, and the junior employee thought all this up on their own, then I say give them a promotion for being so pro-active 

I beg to differ: if it was my company, I would show the junior employee a few books on company brands and how to care for them, and then show this newly ex employee the door.

[rjeberhardt]

To the CEO, Siglent, China,

Dear Sir,

If you wish to save the reputation of your company isn't it about time you posted a personal message of apology here along with an explanation of the events leading to this disaster.  This should be followed up with a clear statement of how you will ensure that this will no longer occur.

Yours etc.,
Russell

[electrolust]

OMG stop with the DMCA.  It's not a DMCA case.  And please stop with the DMCA bashing.  Why does everyone always want to bring out the DMCA pitchfork?  DMCA is actually great for content producers (meaning, you and me) and content distributors (meaning, youtube etc) alike and places a high burden on the copyright owner (ok not great if you own the copyright!).

If a DMCA complaint is issued, the carrier has to remove the material within x hours (48?).  But, the producer has the chance to issue a counter-claim.  Then, the carrier can (must?) put the material back online.  Now the burden is on the copyright holder to go through a more expensive court process to get the material taken down.

Why this is great is because the carrier is absolved of liability, thus freeing them from having to actively look for copyrighted material and determine if it is being illegally distributed -- an insoluble problem.  And folks that have a fair use or other case have a well defined way to protect their own rights.

The whole DMCA takedown process is a good thing.

What sucks are the anti-copy-protection-circumvention parts.

[electrolust]

Also I can understand Siglent's thinking, even if the execution wasn't so great.

What a great way for grey market stuff to be sold -- sell as used but mint "personal" equipment.  A great way to undercut the authorized distributors.  It's too bad for Siglent that a trademark claim is knowingly fraudulent ... two wrongs don't make a right!

The market on these products is obviously highly competitive and all the companies need the authorized distributors so they do need to defend against price cutting.