Siglent They filed a "wrongful trademark claim"

[OldSchoolTechCorner]

Update:

I did get a hold of Revo eBay legal team again and they never called to have the notice withdraw like they claimed. Even then, has to be in email, so it in writing. So they are lying at this point. I sent them my own email with forwarded details, which they did receive and hopefully will get it removed soon myself.

The shame about it, is the GM might have good intentions. HQ unfortunately is screwed up.

[OldSchoolTechCorner]

Well, I bought SDG1025 just a day before this came up, and this is the last piece of Siglent gear I buy for a while. But I've got no caps on either front or rear connectors.

So I'm thinking at least Siglent could send us all some caps

I bought the caps separate on eBay, they didn't come with generator.

[OldSchoolTechCorner]

Well, I bought SDG1025 just a day before this came up, and this is the last piece of Siglent gear I buy for a while. But I've got no caps on either front or rear connectors.

So I'm thinking at least Siglent could send us all some caps

I bought the caps separate on eBay, they didn't come with generator.

Here links to those  Dust Covers

These are the same ones

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10pcs-Plastic-covers-Dust-cap-for-BNC-female-RF-connector-/360724345826?hash=item53fcd8b3e2:g:KEoAAOxyIAZRqbXY

Yellow, but don't have the side cut out, don't really like theses

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-BNC-Female-Cap-Plugs-Caplugs-Lot-of-100-Yellow-New-Protection-Dust-Cover-/121136673516?hash=item1c344ef2ec:g:CAoAAOxyuuJR0hWA

Different type

http://www.ebay.com/itm/25-BNC-Female-Cap-Plug-Caplugs-Black-Easy-EZ-Pull-New-Protection-Caps-Dust-Cover-/121430968091?hash=item1c45d9871b:g:mZoAAOSwxH1UDN~z

Very good ones

http://www.ebay.com/itm/100pcs-Dust-cap-BNC-Female-jack-Straight-Protective-Dust-cap-connector-adapter-/161565717276?hash=item259e11331c:g:A8AAAOSw9N1VtfKj

[ataradov]

I bought the caps separate on eBay, they didn't come with generator.

Ok, so what was show on the auction is actually BETTER than the real unit, and apparently it was a reason for pulling it down

I keep stock of those caps pulled from real equipment anyway.

[smbaker]

While I would love to justify an accessory purchase (especially those shiny covers in that last link), what problem are these solving? I just pulled some of my old test equipment -- my old DS1052E and an old BK precision func gen that came off ebay, and the BNC jacks look fine, at least to the naked eye. Is dust accumulation on the center pin the issue? That's the part I can't see real well.

I have some really old used equipment (50s / 60s eras vacuum tube stuff) that shows some corrosion on various metal parts, but I don't expect this new digital gear to have the staying power that the old tube gear has, because digital equipment is quickly obsoleted by newer digital equipment.

[FlyingHacker]

While I would love to justify an accessory purchase (especially those shiny covers in that last link), what problem are these solving? I just pulled some of my old test equipment -- my old DS1052E and an old BK precision func gen that came off ebay, and the BNC jacks look fine, at least to the naked eye. Is dust accumulation on the center pin the issue? That's the part I can't see real well.

I have some really old used equipment (50s / 60s eras vacuum tube stuff) that shows some corrosion on various metal parts, but I don't expect this new digital gear to have the staying power that the old tube gear has, because digital equipment is quickly obsoleted by newer digital equipment.

Agreed. It would be nice to have, but unless they are attached to the unit I think I would lose them, or they would roll around under the scope, like cheap 50ohm terminators. I doubt plastic caps would reduce corrosion (likely increased it by holding moisture right there).

I use 3M Scotch Brite on those old BNCs on tube gear. Gets them pretty clean without too much mess.
Love your blog, though SMBaker.

[OldSchoolTechCorner]

While I would love to justify an accessory purchase (especially those shiny covers in that last link), what problem are these solving? I just pulled some of my old test equipment -- my old DS1052E and an old BK precision func gen that came off ebay, and the BNC jacks look fine, at least to the naked eye. Is dust accumulation on the center pin the issue? That's the part I can't see real well.

I have some really old used equipment (50s / 60s eras vacuum tube stuff) that shows some corrosion on various metal parts, but I don't expect this new digital gear to have the staying power that the old tube gear has, because digital equipment is quickly obsoleted by newer digital equipment.

When you bought test equipment back then. You kept it for a lifetime pretty much. They were built like tanks and easily repairable and parts and service data available. For new stuff quickly obsoleted by newer digital equipment and loaded with custom parts, so won't last as long as the boat anchors do and still in service.

[OldSchoolTechCorner]

While I would love to justify an accessory purchase (especially those shiny covers in that last link), what problem are these solving? I just pulled some of my old test equipment -- my old DS1052E and an old BK precision func gen that came off ebay, and the BNC jacks look fine, at least to the naked eye. Is dust accumulation on the center pin the issue? That's the part I can't see real well.

I have some really old used equipment (50s / 60s eras vacuum tube stuff) that shows some corrosion on various metal parts, but I don't expect this new digital gear to have the staying power that the old tube gear has, because digital equipment is quickly obsoleted by newer digital equipment.

Agreed. It would be nice to have, but unless they are attached to the unit I think I would lose them, or they would roll around under the scope, like cheap 50ohm terminators. I doubt plastic caps would reduce corrosion (likely increased it by holding moisture right there).

I use 3M Scotch Brite on those old BNCs on tube gear. Gets them pretty clean without too much mess.
Love your blog, though SMBaker.

I don't bother using them anymore as they end up on the floor and under stuff. Some stuff just keep the probes/cables plug in, so is ready when needed.

[SeanB]

Some of those BNC covers came with a short length of bath chain attached, which held them to a BNC screw, so they would not get lost. Was very common on military equipment, though there they often also included a place to put the cover ( A bnc shell with no inside plastic parts) for connectors that would be regularly connected to a cable.

[pickle9000]

So a fair bit of Siglent bashing (I'm included in that) but would I keep buying from them? Probably. If the features and price are right I will. I have a scope and arb from Siglent. The scope is used as a beater (field work) and has been through hell. The build quality is fine, no issues at all. The arb is easy to use and I use it daily with no problems. The firmware is easy to find and no need to ask questions about it's installation or use.

I hope Siglent not only fixes this issue but has a look at all it's policies and improves them. Change your customer relationship for the better, publish it so they know where that stand. As always issues like this are an opportunity.

[electrolust]

There is only one answer in this pic that is relevant to root cause of this debacle.....OEM BNC CAPS

OK, as I said earlier I'm willing to give Sigleng AKA KeyTronix a bit of slack here but wow, you are really reaching.  'nuff said on that.  BNC CAPS are quite obviously not the root cause of anything.  Further, no seller should be penalized for representing their for-sale item in the utmost best possible light.

We know Siglent has OWNED UP to a MISTAKE made in flagging this unit as possibly fraudulent and I ask you; if English was not your first language and relying on the images might you have made this same  mistake too?

This, I would agree with, if counterfeit claims were the real issue.  We already know that that wasn't KeyTronix' issue here, it was just their way to make a claim because eBay happens to have a system to accommodate such claims quickly, so they abused that.

They did own up to the mistake so they should be given credit for that.  But your readiness to excuse them for thinking an item was fraudulent doesn't fly.  They already admitted they didn't think it was fraudulent.  (They merely thought it was new.)

It's also not reasonable to give them any slack for ESL.  If you want to compete in the English speaking market with highly technical products, I'm sorry but you need to be competent in English.  They are an anonymous corporate entity with corporate shielding and protections, not your Uncle Joe, and should be considered adversarially not congenially.  If I can't get good English language sales, I'm not going to get good English language support, and I do not give slack for that.  Luckily for them, like many others in this space, they are not competing on support issues.  You already know when you buy at this price point that the software is utter crap and the support is nonexistent.  To extend ESL issues to be an excusable reason to manipulate the market is almost absurd.

Through Siglent USA we've all been given the explanation of events and then some plainly choose to ignore them, even accusing the GM of Siglent America of LYING.   

Talk about shooting the messenger. 

Again, sorry but I have to emphatically disagree again.

The GM (not some social media marketing flunky) is the person to take the heat.  That is what he's paid for.  Yeah, he didn't do it, but neither did the CEO of the parent company.  For all intents and purposes, Steve represents Siglent.

If I may be blunt, you have a financial interest in Siglent and your opinion cannot be trusted, no matter how much disclaimer you preface it with.

[Macbeth]

So a fair bit of Siglent bashing (I'm included in that) but would I keep buying from them? Probably. If the features and price are right I will

Yes. You just have to lower your expectations of any resale value, and factor in risking your ebay account reputation that you have built up over years if you innocently do list it for sale there. Perhaps Amazon too? who knows how wide the net has been cast.

[electrolust]

AND THEN TURN AROUND AND FILE A FALSE DMCA NOTICE.

Why do you insist on keep using that word.  There is absolutely nothing related to DMCA here and there was no DMCA notice.

[Wuerstchenhund]

Update:

I did get a hold of Revo eBay legal team again and they never called to have the notice withdraw like they claimed. Even then, has to be in email, so it in writing. So they are lying at this point. I sent them my own email with forwarded details, which they did receive and hopefully will get it removed soon myself.

Surprise, surprise....

I told you, they take you for a ride.

The shame about it, is the GM might have good intentions. HQ unfortunately is screwed up.

You still believe in "goodwill" with this lot, seriously? The "GM" is a company representative and could have the case against you dropped if he wanted to in an instant if this was really a "misunderstanding". And he should have done that immediately after he became "aware" of this "misunderstanding". The very likely reason it hasn't been dropped is that Chinese companies give very little authority to staff (incl managers) at subsidiaries abroad (which is also shown by the fact that the takedown request came from China).

In addition, removing the take-down could in itself be seen as an admission of perjury. So chances of them removing it will be like hell freezing over.

Good luck getting the case removed (which will be very difficult as ebay will always follow the affidavit signed by the rightsholder, as otherwise they would risk become liable, and will very likely just tell you to sort it out with Siglent). Just be aware that just because the case has been dropped doesn't necessarily mean it won't count towards your account's standing.

Siglent's whole strategy is to delay as long as possible and hope that the longer it gets the more people lose interested (and are less inclined to do what should have been done in the first place, report it to the authorities and let them deal with it).

Good luck.

Edit: just found this by someone who has apparently fought against a few take-downs:
http://www.rickdrew.com/fighting_ebay_VERO_DMCA_takedown.htm

"You can appeal copyright VERO takedowns. You can't appeal TM (TradeMark) takedowns. This is a total abuse of the VERO system (but what isn't?) and one that eBay sticks it head in the sand on.

Example: I took a photo of a book I was selling. The item was taken down on a trademark infringement complaint. Why? The company complained that my photo was too clear and that the logo quality in the image was too good.  In other words, I took the time to create a nice listing and took my own quality photo of an authentic item - everything eBay tells us to do. The VERO @$%%*&ing ass$$#% then files a TM complaint.

eBay allows no counter-notice, no appeal, nothing. Nada. Zip. Zilch. There is absolutely no process in place to fight it. You need the permission of the complaining party to relist the item. Good luck."

[OldSchoolTechCorner]

AND THEN TURN AROUND AND FILE A FALSE DMCA NOTICE.

Why do you insist on keep using that word.  There is absolutely nothing related to DMCA here and there was no DMCA notice.

Because they did file a DMCA notice, it not a eBay claim, or anything to do with eBay software, or a simple report. A DMCA takedown notice  to affirm trademark counterfeit was sent directly to Revo legal department and was sign by Siglent themselves.

[OldSchoolTechCorner]

Update:

I did get a hold of Revo eBay legal team again and they never called to have the notice withdraw like they claimed. Even then, has to be in email, so it in writing. So they are lying at this point. I sent them my own email with forwarded details, which they did receive and hopefully will get it removed soon myself.

Surprise, surprise....

I told you, they take you for a ride.

The shame about it, is the GM might have good intentions. HQ unfortunately is screwed up.

You still believe in "goodwill" with this lot, seriously? The "GM" is a company representative and could have the case against you dropped if he wanted to in aninstant if this was really a "misunderstanding". And he should have done that immediately after he became "aware" of this "misunderstanding". The very likely reason it hasn't been dropped is that Chinese companies give very little authority to staff (incl managers) at subsidiaries abroad (which is also shown by the fact that the takedown request came from China). In addition, removing the take-down could in itself be seen as an admission of perjury. So chances of them removing it will be like hell freezing over.

Good luck getting the case removed (which will be very difficult as ebay will always follow the affidavit signed by the rightsholder, as otherwise they would risk become liable, and will very likely just tell you to sort it out with Siglent). Just be aware that just because the case has been dropped doesn't necessarily mean it won't count towards your account's standing.

Siglent's whole strategy is to delay as long as possible and hope that the longer it gets the more people lose interested (and are less inclined to do what should have been done in the first place, report it to the authorities and let them deal with it).

Good luck.

I dealing with eBay legal department directly, it not being just removed, but completely withdrawn and your right it is a process, as you can just file a counter notice and already done what I had to get that resolve and give them more then enough evidences to proof my case. You have to remember eBay can only be held liable if only claim was actually valid, which it isn't.

As far as Siglent's whole strategy is to delay as long as possible? Maybe could be very well correct? Yes they will get reported in time if they don't make good and that will make case stronger, this won't just get sweep under rug and forgotten about, but even that process take awhile and have to first get the notice withdrawn and then I worry about next steps to take. For the time being might as well wait to see if they make good. 

 

[tec5c]

(undergraduate teaching labs at a university).

Quick side question... Do you mind me asking which Uni that is?

[OldSchoolTechCorner]

"You can appeal copyright VERO takedowns. You can't appeal TM (TradeMark) takedowns. This is a total abuse of the VERO system (but what isn't?) and one that eBay sticks it head in the sand on.

Example: I took a photo of a book I was selling. The item was taken down on a trademark infringement complaint. Why? The company complained that my photo was too clear and that the logo quality in the image was too good.  In other words, I took the time to create a nice listing and took my own quality photo of an authentic item - everything eBay tells us to do. The VERO @$%%*&ing ass$$#% then files a TM complaint.

eBay allows no counter-notice, no appeal, nothing. Nada. Zip. Zilch. There is absolutely no process in place to fight it. You need the permission of the complaining party to relist the item. Good luck."

You correct, you can't file a counter notice when it used to affirm a trademark infringement. That part your right. Their is another way, you have to invalidate the notice which is a process. At that point. I dealt with it before with Aune, in that case they lost a few rights I won't get into. 

[edavid]

Because they did file a DMCA notice, it not a eBay claim, or anything to do with eBay software, or a simple report. A DMCA takedown notice  to affirm trademark counterfeit was sent directly to Revo legal department and was sign by Siglent themselves.

This is confusing, since as far as I know, DMCA takedowns cannot be used to enforce trademarks.

(However, the eBay VeRO program handles copyright, trademark, and patent complaints, although only the copyright complaints fall under the DMCA.)

[warp_foo]

So I guess now is not the time to start my new scope company called Siglant, huh?

I always thought it would be better to start a company called Craptronix...
Our motto would be "There is Crap in our name so we have to be better".
 

You jest, but:  http://schiit.com/

m

[OldSchoolTechCorner]

Because they did file a DMCA notice, it not a eBay claim, or anything to do with eBay software, or a simple report. A DMCA takedown notice  to affirm trademark counterfeit was sent directly to Revo legal department and was sign by Siglent themselves.

This is confusing, since as far as I know, DMCA takedowns cannot be used to enforce trademarks.

(However, the eBay VeRO program handles copyright, trademark, and patent complaints, although only the copyright complaints fall under the DMCA.)

Actually it can be and what they did for counterfeit trademark. Not the same as normal DMCA takedown. A lot more involve and you can't file a counter notice on this. This one the worst. 

[Len]

This is confusing, since as far as I know, DMCA takedowns cannot be used to enforce trademarks.

There have been many improper DMCA notices filed by many companies on various bogus grounds. They often work simply because the target gives up before going through the difficult process that OldSchoolTechCorner is to get it invalidated.

[electrolust]

AND THEN TURN AROUND AND FILE A FALSE DMCA NOTICE.

Why do you insist on keep using that word.  There is absolutely nothing related to DMCA here and there was no DMCA notice.

Because they did file a DMCA notice, it not a eBay claim, or anything to do with eBay software, or a simple report. A DMCA takedown notice  to affirm trademark counterfeit was sent directly to Revo legal department and was sign by Siglent themselves.

There is no such thing as a DMCA notice for trademark claims.

What is Revo?  Do you mean VERO?

Sure, Siglent *can* issue a DMCA claim but it is illegal to claim trademark violations via the DMCA process (and the illegality has been upheld by US district court).  It doesn't seem to be worth your time but you do have a case against Siglent.  Unfortunately I think you can only recover your $1000 or whatever, plus legal costs.  If you wanted to stick it to them you could just send them a notice requesting a full refund of your purchase price if they wish to avoid a lawsuit.  It would be stupid of them not to pay you, as the harm they would incur in the marketplace would go well beyond their reimbursement of your legal fees.

http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=13f9814f-b56e-4314-8e1b-95215ce60a6d

Further, if this was in fact a [wrongful] DMCA claim, ebay does not have to wait for siglent to drop the claim.  You can issue a counter claim and then have your auction reinstated.

[electrolust]

You correct, you can't file a counter notice when it used to affirm a trademark infringement. That part your right. Their is another way, you have to invalidate the notice which is a process. At that point. I dealt with it before with Aune, in that case they lost a few rights I won't get into.

You can't use DMCA for trademark claims.  At the same time, being able to file a counter notice is a required aspect of the DMCA (whether correctly for copyright or incorrectly for trademark claims).  There is zero chance eBay got this wrong.  It's 10M times more likely that you have misinterpreted what eBay told you as it being a DMCA claim.

[electrolust]

Ah-ha.  I see the confusion after reading the ebay link that Wuerstchenhund provided.

The VERO system is used for both copyright and other IP claims.  Apparently eBay doesn't make it clear which type of claim has occured?  If the claim against you was a trademark claim, or other type of claim for which counter-notice cannot be done, it was not  DMCA claim, just a "direct" VERO claim.

Being able to file a counter claim is a requirement of DMCA.