Siglent SSA3000X and SSA3000X-Plus Spectrum Analyzers

[tefe]

Since I found the 30kHz RBW limit on the SSA3X Analyzers (when the TG is active) a little awkward (see here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hack-of-sigllent-spectrum-analyzer-ssa3021x/msg975408/#msg975408), and while "rf-loop" correctly pointed out that this shouldn't be a problem, I wanted to dig a little bit deeper into the matter of the tracking generator in this machine.

What made me really wonder is that I wasn't able to get a proper parallel resonance dip with a very accurate 1MHz crystal, whatever I tried -- there was always some kind of "hills and valleys" where the dip should be visible. Also the series resonance peak appeares a little "wiggly", see the screenshots in the above link.

Other (less accurate) crystals measure fine without any visible artefacts. The difference is that the mentioned "high accuracy crystal" has a very small frequency span between series and parallel resonance, it's just about 950Hz whereas more common crystals have spacings more like several tens of kilohertz. The reading cannot be an inherent characteristic of the crystal since on my other SA (Rigol 815TG) and also on my 8753C VNA it measures fine. So the problem has to be related to the way the TG in the SSA3X works.

Why on SSA3k, using a 30 kHz RBW, we got a peak with its 3dB BW far less than 30kHz in a 3k span, even like a 100Hz RBW ?

[tautech]

Why on SSA3k, using a 30 kHz RBW, we got a peak with its 3dB BW far less than 30kHz in a 3k span, even like a 100Hz RBW ?

There's some explanation of your "seen" behaviour in reply #304.


Edit
And welcome to the forum

[tefe]

Why on SSA3k, using a 30 kHz RBW, we got a peak with its 3dB BW far less than 30kHz in a 3k span, even like a 100Hz RBW ?

There's some explanation of your "seen" behaviour in reply #304.


Edit
And welcome to the forum

I couldn't find my answer from #304.

I guess 2 points: 1, when sweep time is long , the Xtal reach its full resonance, so the curve seems smoothly. When short, the Xtal isn't stable yet, so the curve is wiggly? But why DSA815 got a smooth curve?  2, why the peak looks thin , because the TGout was "tracking" the RFin? If a frequency  stands there, then the peak will follow the RBW shape.

[TurboTom]

Let me try to put it like this: The Rigol DSA815 has a very simple but otherwise clearly understandable approach to measuring with its TG in use: Both TG and SA section scan the frequency span in constant increments, defined by the count of displayable pixels on the screen (round about 700 in case of the DSA815) and the span. So the TG outputs the center frequency of the "bin" (defined by the resolution bandwidth) the SA is sampling. Since the bandwidth of the TG signal in each "bin" is much smaller than the minimum 100Hz RBW of the Rigol, you can consider the signal to be picked up after a narrow-bandwith component (crystal for instance) a discrete frequency scan of the component. The video bandwith setting has no effect on the TG output.

The situation with the Siglent is much more complex and so far, I'm not sure if I understood it completely. Since the RBW of the instrument with the TG in use is limited to 30kHz and above, frequency discrimination has to be done by scanning with the TG. And here's the big difference vs. the Rigol SA: The VBW setting affects the discrete frequencies to be swept with the TG, i.e. a lower VBW setting results in the TG discrete frequencies to be more closely spaced while a higher VBW causes them to be further apart. Consequently, this also affects scan speed. Why this method of sweeping the frequency results in the "hills and valleys" may be the result of some "chirping" of the TG when setting the new frequency during a sweep. It should be possible yet to eliminate this problem by temporal "windowing" the measurement after the TG has settled. I guess Siglent should address this issue.

Cheers,
Thomas

[Deuze]

Hi, I have received several requests of P07.05 hackable FW. Now I upload it to Mega, please download it if you need.
https://mega.nz/#!WltUFbBa!oSkqO8UV8K6KvsfArgdMQ-BnUcblf_9qHsz828eY9g0

[pascal_sweden]

Can you give a summary of this firmware?

[rf-loop]

Can you give a summary of this firmware?

You get summary if you read all messages about SSA3000X 

We do not need "Simply guide for dummies" about this. Or do we?

Exactly every bit same as previous Siglent public downloadable official FW 7.05 for SSA3000X
But due to reasons it is gone. If it is still shared it can only "destroy" Siglent reputation due to severe fatal bugs in this version. (after then there was 7.06 but it was not in public share. In this old FW 7.05 there is several not so nice bugs and even more severe "fatal class"  bugs if you run it with "non documented mode" (imho, 7.07  changelog is not at all complete, just some more visible changes)

And because 7.07 is not very old, example all my previous tests have used this FW version.

Now current official public shared version is FW 7.07 for SSA3000X

[pascal_sweden]

Does it give SSA3021X super powers (aka SSA3032X)?

[rf-loop]

Does it give SSA3021X super powers (aka SSA3032X)?

I will recommend you read these SSA3000X threads and you get answer easy. I have not so many fingers how many times it have told...

Or you can buy SSA3021X and do what you do..and... Hunters and fishermen often moves or stay quite quietly - because...you know.

[pascal_sweden]

Yes I understand. I just hope that the fish includes calibration data for the other part of the pool

[pherdie]

Experienced two system crashes in short order on my SSA3021 w/TG and firmware .07.07. No hacks have been tried or applied to this unit. The unit had been displaying a 10.7 Mhz signal @-20db, 10hz RBW, 300Hz span. TG was not running. Signal was removed from the input for about an hour and the analyzer ran untouched and unterminated for the entire period. When the exact same signal was reconnected to the input, no signal was displayed. A scope was used to verify the signal being input was still present. The analyzer preset button was then activated, the same conditions set up on the analyzer and the input signal was then displayed as before. Within two minutes the system fully locked up and would not even respond to the power off button being momentarily depressed. The power off button was then held down for about 10-15 seconds until the unit finally went into shut down and reset. No system problems were apparent on reboot.

Anyone else had a similar issue?

[rf-loop]

Experienced two system crashes in short order on my SSA3021 w/TG and firmware .07.07. No hacks have been tried or applied to this unit. The unit had been displaying a 10.7 Mhz signal @-20db, 10hz RBW, 300Hz span. TG was not running. Signal was removed from the input for about an hour and the analyzer ran untouched and unterminated for the entire period. When the exact same signal was reconnected to the input, no signal was displayed. A scope was used to verify the signal being input was still present. The analyzer preset button was then activated, the same conditions set up on the analyzer and the input signal was then displayed as before. Within two minutes the system fully locked up and would not even respond to the power off button being momentarily depressed. The power off button was then held down for about 10-15 seconds until the unit finally went into shut down and reset. No system problems were apparent on reboot.

Anyone else had a similar issue?

One question: How about autocal.  ON or OFF?


In some rare case (using FW 7.05) I have found that turning autocal on may freeze system. (specially found just with narrow RBW's. But it happend rare so not enough experience how it is related to some settings but this all was using 7.05.  7.07 not (yet) detected this.

[pherdie]

Auto Cal was "Close" (off)

[Bicurico]

Hi,

I am trying out my new SSA3021X and have a question:

Using the DEMOD button, I can demodulate AM and FM signals and make them auditable through an earphone.

I tried it with an FM radio station and indeed it works, I can listen to the radio, though I am not totally sure about some parameters. I.e. first I thought that I need to use ZERO SPAN on the carrier frequency, but apparently that is not the case. I seem to need to use a RWB of 100KHz, which kind of makes sense. I don't understand the timing parameter: I guess that is to give the SSA3021X more time to actually demodulating the audio instead of doing screen rendering?

The main question, however, is this: while I can listen to FM radio, I failed to get any signal (even noise) in AM mode. I have a radio scanner and can i.e. listen to aviation. If I use the same frequency on the SSA3021X I won't hear any sound, while the radio is reproducing fine. I can, however see the signal on the spectrum.

Is my AM demodulator broken or am I doing something stupid, like using wrong RWB, VWB, sweep, amplitude, etc.?

Thanks!

[rf-loop]

Hi,

I am trying out my new SSA3021X and have a question:

Using the DEMOD button, I can demodulate AM and FM signals and make them auditable through an earphone.

I tried it with an FM radio station and indeed it works, I can listen to the radio, though I am not totally sure about some parameters. I.e. first I thought that I need to use ZERO SPAN on the carrier frequency, but apparently that is not the case. I seem to need to use a RWB of 100KHz, which kind of makes sense. I don't understand the timing parameter: I guess that is to give the SSA3021X more time to actually demodulating the audio instead of doing screen rendering?

The main question, however, is this: while I can listen to FM radio, I failed to get any signal (even noise) in AM mode. I have a radio scanner and can i.e. listen to aviation. If I use the same frequency on the SSA3021X I won't hear any sound, while the radio is reproducing fine. I can, however see the signal on the spectrum.

Is my AM demodulator broken or am I doing something stupid, like using wrong RWB, VWB, sweep, amplitude, etc.?

Thanks!

Just like what ever radio there is IF filer and IF filter have some bandwidth.  In spectrum analyzer we name it as Resolution Band Widht  filter. RBW. It is this IF filter if we talk radio.

For listening radio (as you know but someone perhaps do not know): With sweeping can not listen radio, same if you very fast turn your radio frequency adjustment. Sweeping need stop. For this: Zero Span.  SA is "sweeping Radio"

Filter need match with transmission BW. 

For commercial FM stations, RBW 100kHz, RBW 300kHz or  EMI RBW 120kHz.

For AM. Normal commercial shortwave AM. Start with 10kHz.

Btw, connecting antenna to SA input need also care that do not burn your SA front end!
Also need note that Max level what is told is valid with Attenuator 20dB and more.

If you think it is not enough sensitive.  Question is antenna and antenna matching.


It need also note that normal radio, even cheapest "pocket radio" have automatic RF/IF level control.  SA do not have at all. If signal is fading you need manually adjust RF level with Atten and PA.

[Bicurico]

Thanks for your reply.

Can you please elaborate on the precautions required to not fry the input?

I am i.e. using a broadband amateur radio reception antenna. The signal is -50 to -70 dBm. I would have thought that there is no danger at all connecting this antenna to the SA. Am I missing something?

The same with cables carrying TV, CATV or SAT signals: I am using a DC blocker (mainly for SAT cable, due to the LNB power sent by the receiver). The signal itself varies from -40 to -70 dBm. That's safe, right?

I have a TV field meter which has a full spectrum analyzer and here the same 50VDC limit exists and the +20dBm. I never fried the input stage of any of my devices.

Still, I would appreciate a little more insight on this subject.

Thanks,
Vitor

(Btw: my name is Vitor and I just used the nick "Bicurico" because all my other commonly used nicks were not available)

[rf-loop]

Thanks for your reply.

Can you please elaborate on the precautions required to not fry the input?

I am i.e. using a broadband amateur radio reception antenna. The signal is -50 to -70 dBm. I would have thought that there is no danger at all connecting this antenna to the SA. Am I missing something?

The same with cables carrying TV, CATV or SAT signals: I am using a DC blocker (mainly for SAT cable, due to the LNB power sent by the receiver). The signal itself varies from -40 to -70 dBm. That's safe, right?

I have a TV field meter which has a full spectrum analyzer and here the same 50VDC limit exists and the +20dBm. I never fried the input stage of any of my devices.

Still, I would appreciate a little more insight on this subject.

Thanks,
Vitor

(Btw: my name is Vitor and I just used the nick "Bicurico" because all my other commonly used nicks were not available)

Just normal care.

Randomly sometimes I listen FM or SW (just for fun experimentation)
  and I do not afraid connect small antenna. But if I think I use it more with antenna and  bit more good outside antenna, example long wire - I do not feel safe until I use some DC block with  with higher low freq limit (less capacitance) and/or limiter. 
With 9kHz l freq limit SSA internal DC block capacitance is quite high, I think it is least well over 1 uF .

For FM listening 1nF is enough. For MW 200nF  and for SW example 20nF.

Is not worth too much to worry about, but the normal sensible caution is good - as always.

It is still good to tightly realize and remember that even if look 1kHz wide band around 1MHz using 10Hz RBW whole front end get in all what is available in input terminal  from nearly DC (<9kHz)  to far over 3GHz and all, entire total amount, is going there to attenuator, switches and pereamplifier and mixer. Whole this front end  take even this 145MHz +30dBm even if you listen 7Mhz and see only -90dBm signals...   this fact is some times too easy forget. In normal environmnet this iss not big problem but if in house is also some transmitter or this and that what produce high LF - HF field when antenna is connected to SA..

[pascal_sweden]

By default the spectrum analyzer supports FM and AM demodulation.
But are there SW options for other modulations (QPSK, FSK, etc.)?
GW-Instek provides many more modulation options than Rigol and Siglent by default.

[cncjerry]

It is still good to tightly realize and remember that even if look 1kHz wide band around 1MHz using 10Hz RBW whole front end get in all what is available in input terminal  from nearly DC (<9kHz)  to far over 3GHz and all, entire total amount, is going there to attenuator, switches and preamplifier and mixer. Whole this front end  take even this 145MHz +30dBm even if you listen 7Mhz and see only -90dBm signals...   this fact is some times too easy forget. In normal environment this is not big problem but if in house is also some transmitter or this and that what produce high LF - HF field when antenna is connected to SA..

rf-loop, that is a very important point you make re broadband input to the SA front end.  Another point related to long wires is static buildup and lightening strikes.  Many times lightning can be blamed for failures of equipment hooked to long random wires even though the lightning didn't directly strike the antenna.

[Bicurico]

Finally I got some sound on AM demodulation!

It seems the gain of my antenna is much too low: I had to turn off attenuation (0.00dB) and turn on Preamp!

Noise is at -110 dBm while transmissions happen at around -90dBm. Volume goes to 10 (max.)

If I turn Attenuator to AUTO and Preamp to OFF, I won't receive anything.

@pascal_sweden: only AM/FM demodulator available. For QPSK/8PSK/QAM/etc. (all digital TV modulations) you should use a TV field meter. Let me know if you want some recommendations!

Regards
Vitor

PS: In the picture I tried to turn on Attentuation AUTO and Preamp On. The picture shows a nearby plane communication, hence the attenuation of 10 dB was OK.

[Bicurico]

Messing around with EasySpectrum.

The pictures show once again aviation communication, the pilot talking to the tower. The 3D waterfall diagram is spectacular and I wasn't even expecting this funcion to be available!

Sidenote to use EasySpectrum, as information is scarce: before installing the EasySpectrum package from Siglent, you need to download and install the National Instruments VISA package (https://www.ni.com/visa/). This provides the required driver/framework for the GPIB protocol.

After installing it, run NI MAX and under network add the SSA3021X. Make sure the SSA3021X has the network correctly configured and you know what IP it is using.

Now run EasySpectrum and it should just work.

Regards,
Vitor

[Electro Fan]

Messing around with EasySpectrum.

The pictures show once again aviation communication, the pilot talking to the tower. The 3D waterfall diagram is spectacular and I wasn't even expecting this funcion to be available!

Sidenote to use EasySpectrum, as information is scarce: before installing the EasySpectrum package from Siglent, you need to download and install the National Instruments VISA package (https://www.ni.com/visa/). This provides the required driver/framework for the GPIB protocol.

After installing it, run NI MAX and under network add the SSA3021X. Make sure the SSA3021X has the network correctly configured and you know what IP it is using.

Now run EasySpectrum and it should just work.

Regards,
Vitor

Really nice 3D software!  Is EasySpectrum included with the SA or is it an additional cost?

[Electro Fan]

Somewhat off topic, but at about 10:15 in Dave's video he shows the noise floor for the Siglent vs the Rigol at three different RBW settings with and without the preamp invoked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkLciTsjGZg&feature=youtu.be

The numbers with the preamp on were especially impressive.  Question:  how do these numbers equate to the noise floor numbers of older HP856X spectrum analyzers (which I don't think offered the same type of preamp or preamp control, yet I think HP claimed some pretty good numbers)?

I'm interested in a comparison of the Siglent vs. the older HPs both in terms of the performance specs and in terms of the underlying SA architecture design.  (Clearly, technology has changed a bunch in a couple decades so 3D rendering, etc. wasn't in the design back in the day; I'm more interested in how the performance compares and how the performance was/is achieved.)

Thx

[tautech]

Messing around with EasySpectrum.

The pictures show once again aviation communication, the pilot talking to the tower. The 3D waterfall diagram is spectacular and I wasn't even expecting this funcion to be available!

Sidenote to use EasySpectrum, as information is scarce: before installing the EasySpectrum package from Siglent, you need to download and install the National Instruments VISA package (https://www.ni.com/visa/). This provides the required driver/framework for the GPIB protocol.

After installing it, run NI MAX and under network add the SSA3021X. Make sure the SSA3021X has the network correctly configured and you know what IP it is using.

Now run EasySpectrum and it should just work.

Regards,
Vitor

Really nice 3D software! 

The 3D image is part of the GUI EasySpectrum software package. and I've highlighted the terminology ^^^ Siglent use to describe it.

Is EasySpectrum included with the SA or is it an additional cost?

It should be on the CD (haven't checked) but it's freely available from the Siglent America website:
http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Firmware&Software/firmware/Easyspectrum.rar

Edit
Correction

[rf-loop]

I think normal waterfall, "Spectrum monitor" as it is named in SA GUI is included with Option: AMK-SSA3000X.

Advanced Measurements Kit (AMK-SSA3000X)  – Includes automatic measurements for
– Channel Power
– Adjacent Channel Power Ratio
– Time Domain Power
– Occupied Bandwidth
– Includes Waterfall Display

Here  waterfall image how my SSA3000X  display it. It show level only with color.
(I can not test without this AMK-SSA3000X Option because permanent Option can not remove using SSA GUI)
This looks very different what PC software EasySpectrum image @Bicurico  posted  and it looks 3-d waterfall.



@Bicurico posted nice 3-d waterfall using PC software EasyWave (free)






My SSA3000X (FW 7.05,  with Option: AMK-SSA3000X). Image  from SSA display.

(note also image quality when used JPG or PNG where PNG wins like 10-1.  I hope Siglent add this PNG and make it as default. Peoples can take selfies and scenery or what ever art pictures using JPG but this is not suitable for this kind of technical document images. If yoy zoom some details etc you can see what kind of pixel porridge JPG is coocking in details)