Siglent SHS820X USB flash-drive port (white) only accepts USB1 gen sticks?

[JAM-PDX]

I just unboxed an SHS820X scope, charged it up and decided to update the firmware before seriously playing with it.  This is my first handheld scope.  I followed the PDF update instructions for doing so, and immediately hit a wall when the scope didn't recognize the 16G FAT32 USB3 stick I inserted.  I tried 16G USB2 FAT32 and nada.  I tried an old USB1 8G and bingo, it immediately mounted.  Granted, the scope USB "Host" connector is white.  The unit specs don't say what USB gen the port is, vs. their desktop models that boldly proclaim USB2.  The Ohio Siglent support center had no information on what kind of flash drive exactly this brand-new 2022 product required and is going to escalate the question and get back.

OK, so maybe I just need to choose a different manufacturer, maybe Siglent carried over the old SHS800/1000 series hardware with an old USB1 port... a dumb move, but it happens.  Imagine my surprise to find almost all the serious handhelds below $5k are in fact the same basic unit as the Siglents... BK, LeCroy, Extech, at wildly varying prices. So, there isn't any other option... they all appear to have the same white USB port, and all of their tech specs say no more than "USB" just like the Siglent specs.  Only the Fluke and other premium units appeared to be different.

Here's my question:  Do I in fact have a defective 820X that *should* be able to mount newer flash drive generations, at least USB2, or are all of these related family units stranded at USB1?  Problem is, there are no USB1 flash drives on the market, which to me is a fatal issue.  It's hard to believe a product released in 2022 would require unobtanium flash media.  Does anyone out there have experience using newer USB gen flash on *any* of these related handheld scopes?

Thanks!
--JimM, Portland OR

[tautech]

Welcome to the forum.

All is not what it seems as if you have a USB stick configured correctly these SHS800/1000X have no trouble with up to 32GB drives providing they are formatted FAT32 and with 4k clusters.
A fresh one gifted from Siglent had no trouble with my SHS820X.

[JAM-PDX]

Wow, that was the magic.  This is what makes forums valuable.  I'll be curious if Siglent comes back with same info. 

Here's what I found on my unit:
* SanDisk 16G USB2 at 4096 "Allocation unit size" mounts right up on insertion -- WORKS
* SanDisk 16G USB3 at 4096 "Allocation unit size" does *NOT* mount -- DID NOT WORK

I don't have a variety of USB2 sizes so can't test the upper end.  Amazon is selling USB2 down to 2Gb so there should be a window of usable media for a while IF USB2 stays available.

tautech, thanks so much!
--Jim

[tautech]

Typically any USB stick 8GB or less formatted FAT32 with 4k clusters works with any Siglent equipment, even their 10yr old stuff.

Confession
A 16GB stick I've used for some years for some 100's of FW updates was difficult to navigate to FW files with some instruments until....I discovered it was formatted with 8k clusters. 
It's still in use but now with 4k clusters and issues magically disappeared. 

[JAM-PDX]

Maybe I do have a unit issue, or at least a size issue.  I removed the 16G USB2 to put the firmware patch on and now it won't mount again.   Perhaps I need to buy some 8G USB2 and see if they're better.

Nuts.

--Jim

[tautech]

Maybe I do have a unit issue, or at least a size issue.  I removed the 16G USB2 to put the firmware patch on and now it won't mount again.   Perhaps I need to buy some 8G USB2 and see if they're better.

Nuts.

--Jim

Gimme a bit and I'll do some tests.

The largest USB sticks I have are 32GB which Siglent recently sent us a few.

BTW, what PC OS are you working with ?
All Siglent equipment uses a Linux OS and I work with a W10 PC.

[JAM-PDX]

For this test I Quick formatted the drive on Win11 and copied the file using Win10.  At the moment I'm doing a full (SLOW) format on the USB2 stick with Win10... it's going to take a while, it's USB2. 

I just ordered some SamData 8G USB2 sticks that will arrive Sunday.  Fortunately buyer feedback mentions how slow they are, which I consider a good thing in this case.

[tautech]

Unknown what these 32GB USB sticks are other than they have a black plastic insert however with the SHS820X I have here they work perfect and install new FW without issue.
Anything I need look for in the stick Properties that might help you ?

I just dropped the .ADS FW update file onto the root of this USB using W10.
Normally I would place it a subfolder and navigate to it from the Update menu which I'm sure would work fine too.

[JAM-PDX]

The formatting finished, so I loaded the FW into a folder and got lucky in that the scope mounted the drive.  I successfully updated the FW, and pwr cycled the scope a few times.  Sure enough, the stick won't mount on demand, so that hasn't changed.  Otherwise the scope seems to work great.  I love the big statistics box, and am getting comfortable with the H/V scaling buttons vs. scope knobs, tho the button pushes are slow & tedious.  I kinda wished holding the buttons down would cause them to increment... maybe they do and I'm not patient enough.  Time to get out the manual... I'm gathering questions. 

I think the next step is to see how the 8G sticks work... you have found them more consistent than larger.

Just curious, do the other Siglent machines have white USB connectors as the handhelds do (typically mean USB1)?   Regarding handheld Siglents, how many have you had your hands on?  A few or several?  Were those the old 800/1000 series and/or the new X upgrades?

--Jim

[tautech]

Time to get out the manual... I'm gathering questions. 

Shoot !

I think the next step is to see how the 8G sticks work... you have found them more consistent than larger.

TBH 8GB is what I've mostly used but now with these new 32GB Siglent sticks I'm putting them to test.

Just curious, do the other Siglent machines have white USB connectors as the handhelds do (typically mean USB1)?

Many, although USB3 is becoming more common.

Regarding handheld Siglents, how many have you had your hands on?  A few or several?  Were those the old 800/1000 series and/or the new X upgrades?

Both but previously knew 8GB USB sticks were the preferred diet.

FYI, we have a dedicated SHS X model thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-x-model-siglent-handhelds-coming/

[Psi]

I wonder if maybe this could be a USB power issues.
I personally have never had a Siglent fail to read a USB stick, but obviously as USB sticks get faster and higher capacity they will need more current and higher burst currents to function correctly.

You could try with a "powered" USB HUB in between the device and the stick to test the theory.
Note: I don't know if the SHS820X can work with USB hubs but if you have one it would be quick to test, since its a powered HUB you take the power requirements off the scope

[tautech]

I wonder if maybe this could be a USB power issues.
I personally have had no issue with Siglent and USB devices, but obviously as USB sticks get faster and higher capacity they will need more current and higher burst currents to function correctly.

You could try with a "powered" HUB in between the device and the stick to test the theory.
Note: I don't know if the SHS820X can work with USB hubs but if you have one it would be quick to test and if it's powered you take the power requirements off the scope

Good point.
The update I installed to check the 32GB stick was with the battery charger fitted.....

[tautech]

............

How's that scope treating you ?
Did you get the new update installed before it was pulled ?
I have a link to it if you want it.

[Psi]

How's that scope treating you ?
Did you get the new update installed before it was pulled ?
I have a link to it if you want it.

The scope is working well
I've not updated the FW on it in a year or 2, so probably still running an old ver

[tautech]

How's that scope treating you ?
Did you get the new update installed before it was pulled ?
I have a link to it if you want it.

The scope is working well
I've not updated the FW on it in a year or 2, so probably still running an old ver

Expect an email with link soon.
It's the beta that got released but froze some scopes but has been revised and not yet rereleased.
Has some neat new features.....

[JAM-PDX]

I wonder if maybe this could be a USB power issues.
I personally have had no issue with Siglent and USB devices, but obviously as USB sticks get faster and higher capacity they will need more current and higher burst currents to function correctly.

Easily could be.  The larger the capacity and the newer the generation the higher the power.

Psi:  is your experience statement regarding powered desktop instruments or also battery powered?

I didn't notice a difference in willingness to connect the 16G stick with charger connected or not.  I haven't found anything that correlates.

I don't have a powered hub to play with, but just ordered some 2G USB2 to test... I'm assuming that's the "lowest power" test I can make with available media and play by strict USB port rules.  I'll be able to compare 2G, 8G, and 16G USB2 sticks for ability to connect.  That should provide some size and power data points.  I kinda doubt they all run the same speed, but wouldn't know how to measure that.  I'll report next Monday when I have all the media in hand. 

[KungFuJosh]

I don't have one of the portable scopes, but I use these without issue on all my test gear: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09FFK1QLR/

Fine in 5 Siglent devices, and a bench LCR, etc...

[JAM-PDX]

Testing Update: 
Two different USB2 8Gb flash memory w/4K clusters appears to mount and read/write w/o issue.   I would then expect the USB2 2G sticks coming will also work.   Clearly there's trouble for anything larger than USB2 8G.  This would seem consistent with tautech's experience. 

I did notice the file Create/Modify Date as seen on Win10/11 doesn't agree with the scope time as I set (local Pacific Time Zone time);  rather it looks like UTC-0.  Is this a failure on my part to configure the scope, or a bug in the firmware that doesn't use set time?   I suppose I can mitigate the bug by setting scope time as local and setting scope timezone as UTC-0.   Does Siglent have a place to report instrument function bugs?

[tautech]

I did notice the file Create/Modify Date as seen on Win10/11 doesn't agree with the scope time as I set (local time);  rather it looks like UTC-0.  Is this a failure on my part to configure the scope, or a bug in the firmware that doesn't use set time?   I suppose I can mitigate the bug by setting scope time as local and setting scope timezone as UTC-0.   Does Siglent have a place to report instrument function bugs?

Oh good find, will check it out and send in a possible bug report.

Edit to add
Not a bug.

[JAM-PDX]

Confirmed... setting scope to UTC-0, (Atlantic Reykjavik) and resetting scope time to current local time creates scope files with Create dates that match scope time.  I think this will continue to work even when I reset scope time back to local Standard Time.

I also noticed you need to press CONFIRM a second early to compensate for the internal delay in setting scope time. 

[JAM-PDX]

Closing out this thread...

It appears the handheld scopes that use whatever platform Siglent is using for their Series 800/1000 products, having what they call "USB" Host ports have a narrow range of acceptable USB flash media, which must also follow specific configuration rules:
*  USB2 8Gb or less
*  FAT32 format using 4096 "Allocation unit size"

Problem solved, but I'm baffled why this information doesn't show up in any Siglent manuals, online FAQs, or other tech support notes.


tautech, do you have contacts you can forward this information to?   Given I almost returned the unit as faulty, and was close to rejecting it outright, this seems rather important. 

[tautech]

Confirmed... setting scope to UTC-0, (Atlantic Reykjavik) and resetting scope time to current local time creates scope files with Create dates that match scope time.  I think this will continue to work even when I reset scope time back to local Standard Time.

I also noticed you need to press CONFIRM a second early to compensate for the internal delay in setting scope time.

After my short tests, the PNG screenshot (Print) timestamp and OSD time match when Timezone is correctly set.

You should be able to download the attached PNG and check its Properties to find everything matches, OSD and timestamp.

[JAM-PDX]

when I click on your file link my Win OS gives it my PC time;  you'd have to post an image of your filesystem showing file timestamp. 

i've got HW 00-03 on SW 1.1.21R3, uboot-OS 1.1.    When my timezone is set to Los Angeles and that current time, I'm getting UTC-0 timestamps on the files.  What else can I say?  I can resolve that so it's moot for me. 

To be honest, I can't see why the scope cares about timezone, but perhaps it's part of its OS and the programmers thot it important to use.  I guess if a user was taking the scope across time zones it might be easier to change the zone than the time, but then the file timestamps are sort of misleading since they don't specify zone;  a UTC-0 time would at least be consistent for comparison.  Isn't time fun?

[tautech]

File Explorer screenshot with 00003 PNG

[JAM-PDX]

After my short tests, the PNG screenshot (Print) timestamp and OSD time match when Timezone is correctly set.

You should be able to download the attached PNG and check its Properties to find everything matches, OSD and timestamp.

Clearly you aren't seeing what I was, but there must be an explanation why we're seeing what we are. 

Thinking about this, perhaps I initially entered the time data out of order to what the scope wants... perhaps I first set the time and then set the zone, or vice versa... whichever caused the scope to throw the timestamp off from current time.  Maybe this is an initial-boot corner-case bug.  Since I'm going to stick with my UTC-0 config to avoid this in the future I'm not going to pursue, but you might want to experiment to see if order of entry causes the problem.