Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's

[tautech]

I don't think Rigol, Keysight, Rohde & Schwarz charge separate HW accessory and SW license to enable the digital channels

Facts not presumptions please.

If this is true and I suspect not those brands are doing their followers a disservice not providing HW only should it fail.
Let alone the example rf-loop gave previously, having multiple units at one establishment but not needing optional HW for each but SW licensing for each so the HW can be used on any.

[BillyO]

Your counter example is flawed, we are talking the same accessory that works on both HW, and you are talking about incompatible accessories (tires for the Civic and tires for the Accord)... and you don't pay Honda a separate license for you to use the winter tires, correct?  I don't think Rigol, Keysight, Rohde & Schwarz charge separate HW accessory and SW license to enable the digital channels

It's not actually.  You cling too much to stereotypes.  It's a case of need and fulfilment.  No More.  Think on it a little further.

My question still stands.

[tszaboo]

Does anyone have a good idea about the discounts of EU equipment sellers for siglent?
Batter fly has 7% for the next ~2 weeks for Siglent.
Welectron has 5% with Marco Reps discount code.
Batronix 2% for SEPA, but they also supposedly match the price of others.

[Bad_Driver]

Gentleman, why did you start this discussion again?

There will be no - for all sufficient - solution.

I understand that we all “suffer” from Siglents licencencing costs, ecspecaly all in this forum (joke!).
I’m pretty sure that we all did market evaluations and comparisons and made our decision pro or again a brand.
And companies do the same with their offerings to their customers.

This discussion leads nowhere 

[baldurn]

Does anyone have a good idea about the discounts of EU equipment sellers for siglent?
Batter fly has 7% for the next ~2 weeks for Siglent.
Welectron has 5% with Marco Reps discount code.
Batronix 2% for SEPA, but they also supposedly match the price of others.

Siglent.eu seems to have a permanent 5% discount on everything. They even put up the coupon code on the checkout page.

[baldurn]

I understand that we all “suffer” from Siglents licencencing costs, ecspecaly all in this forum (joke!).

The strange thing is that Siglent are selling the logic probe at two price points, with the cheaper only useful for hackers. Is this a hidden eevblog rebate?

[Bad_Driver]

I’m with you when it comes to technical questions, drawbacks or malfunctions.
This helps us and the manufacturer as well.

But go thru all this senseless discussions in many threads “xxxx is better than yyyyy” of all the fan boys. All the important technical information is buried under this kind of bashing. I stoped to follow the DHO800 thread since it is so boring to read this.

You pointed your position out - ok. Other pointed their out.  But that is no reason for continued dispute.
We can agree that we do not agree with everything. And this is ok.

[Mechatrommer]

I don't think Rigol, Keysight, Rohde & Schwarz charge separate HW accessory and SW license to enable the digital channels

Facts not presumptions please.

If this is true and I suspect not those brands are doing their followers a disservice not providing HW only should it fail.
Let alone the example rf-loop gave previously, having multiple units at one establishment but not needing optional HW for each but SW licensing for each so the HW can be used on any.

I can only provide facts for Rigol. They do indeed not have the concept of a "logic analyser license" at all. Buy a single hardware probe, and you can use it on as many compatible scopes as you like.

Their probe prices are comparable with Siglent's probes (excluding the additional Siglent license cost). So there is no "penalty" or double-charging if you should have to replace a broken probe.

what double charging? if you break your probe, you buy HW probe only. if you dont have license in scope already, you buy license too... https://www.siglent.eu/license-keys-options/sds1000x-e-sds1000x-licenses-options license is almost as expensive as HW probe, but you only buy once as long as your scope is not broken. so dont break your scope, or put it into obsoletion. breaking probe is ok btw the deal is a deal, if you dont like it, then its not a deal. since this thread's police doesnt allow “xxxx is better than yyyyy” comparison, so i'll stop here cheers.

[2N3055]

If I may offer a view on this:

Topics about certain, well, topics, should try to stay on topic.

This license for generator separate from AWG hardware itself has economic reasons.

Price for writing a piece of software is separate from developing/making hardware for AWG itself.

Software on scope that controls AWG is actually a part of pricing structure of developing scope, not AWG.

And then you might buy only AWG and not AWG control license for the scope because you want only to use BODE.
In which case. You don't need scope AWG license.
So people that have a scope and external AWG can have scope few bucks cheaper.

Same if you are school or business. You might have 10 scopes, 2 gens and licenses for AWG on 5 scopes and only use of Bode on other 5..
In business environment things like that are very common.

Do I personally find it a bit complicated ? Yes. Siglent could have simply built in price for that into every scope and awg in some proportion.
That would benefit some small users, and some large customers would not be happy. I personally think they made good compromise.

But my problem discussing this in length here is:

1. This is something that is common for ALL Siglent scopes. It is not SDS800xHD special "feature" so apart from mentioning it as a caveat emptor, further discussion in excruciating detail is off topic.
2. Harsh words were uttered. Lying, deceit, and all kinds of derogatory comments that are simply not true. You might not like how licensing is done (and every type of licensing is going to have at least one person not happy with it), but there is nothing shady going on. It is all in plain view, explained ad nauseam, and plainly by people who sell these things.
3. If this licensing structure is of such concern to majority of Siglent users, than it deserves it's own topic. Or even better an letter sent to Siglent explaining customer view.

This unsavory uncivilised practice of deliberately making a public stink in hope of blackmailing a manufacturer in submission by threatening bad publicity is what is wrong with this reality show inspired society today.. Just say no to that. It makes us all just wallowing in the mud.
Not all of people did that, and not all the time. Not even deliberately i think, but we should know better.

That is my opinion on this.

Stay on topic.
Stick with the facts.
Keep statements grounded in reality and real context.
Say your mind but,
It is nice to be nice.

And we'll be fine.

Best to all.

[lunix]

I'm a relative newb here.  I have read about hacks, and such. Everyone else might know what is meant by "[Siglent's] very friendly licensing policy".  Would someone let me in on that? 

[pdenisowski]

I don't think Rigol, Keysight, Rohde & Schwarz charge separate HW accessory and SW license to enable the digital channels

We sell a hardware option (MXO-B1) for the digital channels / mixed signal option:  this is physical hardware that has to be installed in the scope.  Note that this comes with the probes (2 times RT-ZL04, 8 channels each, so 16 channels total).  There's no additional software license needed for basic logic analysis / digital channels.

We also sell software options for decodes, e.g. K510 covers "low speed digital" (UART, SPI, I2C, etc.) and K520 covers "automotive digital" (LIN, CAN variants).  These can be decoded using either analog or digital channels - i.e. you can decode them using passive probes if you want (and this is how I normally decode them, by the way).

I mention this a couple of times in my videos on serial decodes on the MXO, for example:
https://youtu.be/MncKy3usPks

Hope that helps!

[pdenisowski]

We sell a hardware option (MXO-B1) for the digital channels / mixed signal option:  this is physical hardware that has to be installed in the scope.  Note that this comes with the probes (2 times RT-ZL04, 8 channels each, so 16 channels total).  There's no additional software license needed for basic logic analysis / digital channels.

Example:  here's a picture of me decoding 8 parallel "digital" channels from the (excellent) Batronix demo board.  This only requires that I have the HW option: no software license is needed

[BillyO]

We sell a hardware option (MXO-B1) for the digital channels / mixed signal option:  this is physical hardware that has to be installed in the scope.

Sounds like an interesting approach.  A few questions.

• Is installation included or is that additional to the device?
• Is installation done on the customer's site or does the scope need to be sent in?
• So, to get additional functionality, there are software licenses to buy?

[TK]

I don't think Rigol, Keysight, Rohde & Schwarz charge separate HW accessory and SW license to enable the digital channels

Facts not presumptions please.

If this is true and I suspect not those brands are doing their followers a disservice not providing HW only should it fail.
Let alone the example rf-loop gave previously, having multiple units at one establishment but not needing optional HW for each but SW licensing for each so the HW can be used on any.

Fact check from rigolna.com: The entire DHO900 series comes equipped with digital channels as standard, allowing digital signal analysis when paired with the PLA2216 logic analysis probe.

[BillyO]

Fact check from rigolna.com: The entire DHO900 series comes equipped with digital channels as standard, allowing digital signal analysis when paired with the PLA2216 logic analysis probe.

Which is almost as expensive as the SPL-1016 + the software license.    It seems that for certain customers the ability to separate them would be advantageous.  For us we just get the license for a few minutes work saving quite a bit.

[egonotto]

We sell a hardware option (MXO-B1) for the digital channels / mixed signal option:  this is physical hardware that has to be installed in the scope.  Note that this comes with the probes (2 times RT-ZL04, 8 channels each, so 16 channels total).  There's no additional software license needed for basic logic analysis / digital channels.

Example:  here's a picture of me decoding 8 parallel "digital" channels from the (excellent) Batronix demo board.  This only requires that I have the HW option: no software license is needed

Hello,

Do I understand correctly that if you have an RT-ZL04 from the RTA4004, you can use it with the MXO4 or MXO5?

Best regards
egonotto

[ZigmundRat]

Do you understand that  RT-ZL04, RTA4004, MXO4 and MXO5 are not Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's or accessories? Why is it so impossible to stay even remotely on topic? Maybe I should go over to the R&S threads and post about my Calphalon cookware.
Yah, I know this is also off topic. But for once I just had to rant. Sorry.

[Performa01]

We sell a hardware option (MXO-B1) for the digital channels / mixed signal option:  this is physical hardware that has to be installed in the scope.  Note that this comes with the probes (2 times RT-ZL04, 8 channels each, so 16 channels total).  There's no additional software license needed for basic logic analysis / digital channels.

Thanks for clarifying. Maybe some would find it more convenient to just install a SW-license whenever they want to, instead of needing to have some physical hardware installed inside the scope.

Yet I bet that the ones moaning about Siglent’s licensing model would start moaning again, and maybe even louder, as soon as they find out that

a) they could buy an SDS3034X HD MSO SW-license together with almost five(!) logic probes at the same cost as a single R&S MSO Option for MXO4.

b) Fundamental features, that are included for no additional cost in every Siglent DSO, like decoders for embedded design (I2C, SPI, UART = RS232, RS422, RS485), cost another €2.400,- for the MXO4.

c) Bode Plot is an €2.000,- option for the MXO4.

d) Mask test doesn’t even seem to be available at all – and if it was, it most likely would be another expensive option.

We also sell software options for decodes, e.g. K510 covers "low speed digital" (UART, SPI, I2C, etc.) and K520 covers "automotive digital" (LIN, CAN variants).  These can be decoded using either analog or digital channels …

Of course, we have the choice of using analog or digital (or even a mix of the two) for decoding. Here again, Siglent users don’t require an expensive SW-license for the most basic automotive protocols like CAN and LIN.

[2N3055]

We sell a hardware option (MXO-B1) for the digital channels / mixed signal option:  this is physical hardware that has to be installed in the scope.  Note that this comes with the probes (2 times RT-ZL04, 8 channels each, so 16 channels total).  There's no additional software license needed for basic logic analysis / digital channels.

Example:  here's a picture of me decoding 8 parallel "digital" channels from the (excellent) Batronix demo board.  This only requires that I have the HW option: no software license is needed

With do all respect,

SDS800xHD is priced 800USD for most expensive version, that has many options included as standard. Segmented memory, Bode plot, decoding.... MXO4 is literally 10x more expensive, no options included, and that MSO option alone is 3100 USD. And it is literally a screw in hardware. You will not be able to casually move it between the scopes by just plug/ unplug.

But let's not speak about scopes that are much more powerful and  literally cost 10x more.

RTB2000 is cheapest 4 ch scope R&S makes. RTB2000 200 MHz 4 ch version is 3230USD.
That one is still 4x more but that is cheapest R&S has for 4ch 200 MHz scope. Also, not even basic options included.
It's Rohde and Schwarz RTB-B1 MSO option cost $1,080.00. It is also HW+SW included. SW license for ONE scope and 2x RT-ZL03 Logic probes (individually $585.00 each).

Question: If I have 2 RTB2000 scopes and would like to share RT-ZL03 Logic probes between them, I buy RTB-B1, and install license on one of the scopes. Can I buy just software license for the other one?
I couldn't find that info. I know I can buy only hardware probe separately (to replace missing/ damaged ones).

But can I just buy SW "unlock" for the second scope so I can share probe between 2 scopes because I want to use it just occasionally?

See?

This is something you can do with current Siglent structure and for the fraction of the money with other manufacturers.
But people still complaint Siglent being unfair about it for some reason.
Humans are such. Never enough..

But as few of us noted (me included, mea culpa) that is really off topic here.

Best to you..

[tautech]

We sell a hardware option (MXO-B1) for the digital channels / mixed signal option:  this is physical hardware that has to be installed in the scope.  Note that this comes with the probes (2 times RT-ZL04, 8 channels each, so 16 channels total).  There's no additional software license needed for basic logic analysis / digital channels.

Thanks for clarifying. Maybe some would find it more convenient to just install a SW-license whenever they want to, instead of needing to have some physical hardware installed inside the scope.

Indeed.

For SPL1016 it could be possible to add further to the displayed device recognition message and enable permanent licensing with purchase of SPL1016 however this would be a entirely new strategy for Siglent when their other and superior SLA2016 logic probe is an entirely passive device that doesn't provide for connection detection.

However much code would need changing, current MSO/LA licensing deleted and autodetection sufficient for LA/MSO operation and the licensing costs hidden in an increased cost for SPL1016.

This would also require Siglent to have 2 quite different LA/MSO probe marketing strategies, one for the active SPL1016 including inbuilt licensing and another for the passive SLA2016 needing separate licensing, meaning a significant change to a decade old policy.

That Tek, LeCroy and some Rigol models also use the passive SLA2016 or variants of it, it would be foolhardy of them to sell a license bundled with it as the licensing cannot be autodetected when inserted into another scope unlike an active MSO/LA probe.

IMO the status quo need remain.

[baldurn]

b) Fundamental features, that are included for no additional cost in every Siglent DSO, like decoders for embedded design (I2C, SPI, UART = RS232, RS422, RS485), cost another €2.400,- for the MXO4.

I find protocol decoders costing any money is a bit dishonest. No matter what vendor is asking for the money. This is all available as open source and for free:

https://sigrok.org/wiki/Protocol_decoders

[tszaboo]

b) Fundamental features, that are included for no additional cost in every Siglent DSO, like decoders for embedded design (I2C, SPI, UART = RS232, RS422, RS485), cost another €2.400,- for the MXO4.

I find protocol decoders costing any money is a bit dishonest. No matter what vendor is asking for the money. This is all available as open source and for free:

https://sigrok.org/wiki/Protocol_decoders

For a lot of scopes the decoding happens in the hardware/FPGA to be able to do it fast. For example triggering on a Flexray frame error needs to be developed in some sort of HDL. But even for serial ports, UART , the speed of it can be dozens of megabit, that you cannot decode offline in software. And engineers will be less interested in the actual data, they will be more interested in detecting a lot of the error conditions, that are sometimes even difficult to describe.
That being said, all the UART/I2C/SPI/parallels bus/manchester encoding shouldn't really be an option which costs extra, these are very basic tools that should be included without extra charge. They have been around for decades and they are bread and butter, discussion about "developing it" is a bit dishonest, and the costs of them don't reflect the time to implement it.

[2N3055]

b) Fundamental features, that are included for no additional cost in every Siglent DSO, like decoders for embedded design (I2C, SPI, UART = RS232, RS422, RS485), cost another €2.400,- for the MXO4.

I find protocol decoders costing any money is a bit dishonest. No matter what vendor is asking for the money. This is all available as open source and for free:

https://sigrok.org/wiki/Protocol_decoders

For a lot of scopes the decoding happens in the hardware/FPGA to be able to do it fast. For example triggering on a Flexray frame error needs to be developed in some sort of HDL. But even for serial ports, UART , the speed of it can be dozens of megabit, that you cannot decode offline in software. And engineers will be less interested in the actual data, they will be more interested in detecting a lot of the error conditions, that are sometimes even difficult to describe.
That being said, all the UART/I2C/SPI/parallels bus/manchester encoding shouldn't really be an option which costs extra, these are very basic tools that should be included without extra charge. They have been around for decades and they are bread and butter, discussion about "developing it" is a bit dishonest, and the costs of them don't reflect the time to implement it.

And this SDS800xHD has I2C/SPI/UART/CAN for free...

But asking payment for the goods provided is not "dishonest".  It is the actual way how our society works..
Even in comunism it was so.

[Martin72]

Perhaps we could outsource the topic of options, as there seems to be increased interest in it across all brands.

[Bad_Driver]

And now back to the topic. This morning my new black toy arrived. Yes it is small related to my SDS2000X or SVA1032, but not too small.
It found its place on my bench. Network connection and time server were easy to manage as all Siglent gear.

Checked it out with my Leo Bodnar Pulser (I searched the whole weekend for it...).
Connected with a 50 ohms feedthrough adaptor.

You see the progress from a 70 MHz -> 100 MHz -> 200 MHz scope   

PS: Sorry I run into problems with the images, try to fix it