Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's

[Fungus]

I don't think it is about the material cost difference between a 7" and 10" display. Rather it's about market segmentation and keeping different product classes at different price points.b

That's only because you haven't seen how cute the DHO800 is and how little space it takes up.

[Neutrion]

If you prefer 10", siglent and rigol also have scope models in this size.
You don't have to buy a 7" if you don't want it.

Those are more advanced scopes, I am only talking about the screen size.

[thm_w]

EDIT: Another way to look at it -- manufacturers are not "screwing people" by this pricing model. Rather, they are subsidizing the entry level models via the higher margins they get for the 10" models which they can declare to be "one class above". If you, like me, are a hobbyist with a limited budget, you actually benefit from this pricing model.

Yes, absolutely, we wouldn't get the SDS800X HD for the price it will be at without the high end models existing ($500 or whatever it ends up as). It would probably cost three times as much.

[tszaboo]

If the market segmentation is "artificial" and not coming  from a technical reason, but just screwing people,
than the competition will fill the gap. Maybe GW instek if not Rigol.
So I don't think this is the reason.

Bless your heart.

Yes, eventually this differentiator will get eroded too, like all the others did. One manufacturer will be the first mover. But so far, all manufacturers are holding the fort...

The display's BOM cost clearly is not the reason for the price difference between 7" and 10" scopes today. I can buy a 10.1" tablet with a 1280*800 touch screen -- just like the very nice screen in Rigol's DHO1000 and DHO4000 series -- from Amazon for 60 Euros. That price also buys me a quad-core CPU with RAM and ROM, two cameras, GPS, Wifi/Bluetooth/3G radio, and a 6 Ah battery.

All for 60 Euros including our 19% VAT, shipping cost, and margins for the manufacturer, the reseller and Amazon. How much do you think the 10" display can cost to make that work?

EDIT: Another way to look at it -- manufacturers are not "screwing people" by this pricing model. Rather, they are subsidizing the entry level models via the higher margins they get for the 10" models which they can declare to be "one class above". If you, like me, are a hobbyist with a limited budget, you actually benefit from this pricing model.

(If you, like me, want a 10" screen, you have to bite the bullet and pay for it, or wait for a good deal. Rigol currently sells the DHO1000 models at a 40% "Black Week" discount, valid until November 30th.)

Ok, let me ask you this. The MSO5072 has it's logic analyzer "forgot in" and it's a software upgrade. The scope costs 962 EUR.
The price difference between the DS7014 and the MSO7014 is 700 EUR, the feature difference is the logic analyzer. Which is blocked out with plastic if you buy the DS model.
"Oh, you have a nice scope, let's ask more money for the same features."
This reminds me to those salesman weasels, that give you a quotation based on the car you are driving.
I'm sure others do this as well, but this one made me more upset now.

About this SDS800: I'm not sure where this could arrive in price. Its already a confusing product stack with useless 2 channel models and a lot of scopes with huge feature difference at around 400 EUR. And it's yet another case for some reason. I mean the SDS1202X-E comes from a different injection mould than the SDS1204X-E. This could fit into that mould but no, let's make a new one.

[tautech]

About this SDS800: I'm not sure where this could arrive in price. Its already a confusing product stack with useless 2 channel models and a lot of scopes with huge feature difference at around 400 EUR. And it's yet another case for some reason. I mean the SDS1202X-E comes from a different injection mould than the SDS1204X-E. This could fit into that mould but no, let's make a new one.

SDS1202X-E comes from a time when 2ch DSO's were the norm and for SDS11/1204X-E multiplexing channel controls was necessary to keep the same form factor.
AFAIKT SDS800X HD uses the SDS11/1204X-E mold and only the HW, display and the colour changes.

[Veteran68]

Of course this comes just days after I gave in and grabbed a DHO1074 during the BF sale. Not that I regret getting a $1K scope for <$600, and it's probably better in terms of overall features (plus its 10" screen), but if Siglent would have been ready to market in this space I would have preferred to stay with Siglent out of a sense of brand loyalty if nothing else. I have a bunch of Siglent gear, while this Rigol will be the only one I have. Not that I'm a bigot that claims Siglent is better than Rigol in every way, but I'm the type that tends to prefer to "match" my equipment, whether that be my test gear, my audio gear, or my cordless power tools. So in any kind of close race, Siglent would be my go-to choice. But they were late enough to this game, combined with Rigol's aggressive BF deal on the DHO1000, that I felt I was finally pushed to break camp with Siglent. I hope I don't regret it, although I'm sure if I do have second thoughts, I should be able to recoup my investment, maybe more, by selling the DHO1074 (provided they're not unloading to discontinue them, and their resale value plummets).

[2N3055]

Of course this comes just days after I gave in and grabbed a DHO1074 during the BF sale. Not that I regret getting a $1K scope for <$600, and it's probably better in terms of overall features (plus its 10" screen), but if Siglent would have been ready to market in this space I would have preferred to stay with Siglent out of a sense of brand loyalty if nothing else. I have a bunch of Siglent gear, while this Rigol will be the only one I have. Not that I'm a bigot that claims Siglent is better than Rigol in every way, but I'm the type that tends to prefer to "match" my equipment, whether that be my test gear, my audio gear, or my cordless power tools. So in any kind of close race, Siglent would be my go-to choice. But they were late enough to this game, combined with Rigol's aggressive BF deal on the DHO1000, that I felt I was finally pushed to break camp with Siglent. I hope I don't regret it, although I'm sure if I do have second thoughts, I should be able to recoup my investment, maybe more, by selling the DHO1074 (provided they're not unloading to discontinue them, and their resale value plummets).

First thing is that we are all so brainwashed with this mentality "This stuff used to cost 1000 USD. I got it for 600 USD so I got a good deal". That theory has two flaws: First, if 1000 USD was realistic price it would fly off the shelves and there would be no price cuts. Especially if you are alone in a market in that market segment. That simply shows that 600 USD is simply a price people are willing to pay for it. So that is it's "real" price.  Previously it was overpriced. Second flaw is that product can have different value to user despite brochures looking similar.

DHO1000 is not better in terms of overall features. It has larger screen and it is great improvement for Rigol, but it is not better as a scope compared to SDS800X HD.  SDS800X HD has same sampling rate, same memory, orders of magnitude better math, better FFT, segmented and history memory mode, Histicons, Bode Plot.. pretty much all the goodies of their bigger brothers.
Which makes it more capable than even DHO4000 in math capabilities for instance.....

[pope]

Can someone explain the difference between 2 GSa/s and dual 1 GSa/s (sds1000x-e) to a naive guy like me?

Does it mean that when only one channel is active the whole 2 GSa/s sampling rate will be applied to this channel?

[Fungus]

Does it mean that when only one channel is active the whole 2 GSa/s sampling rate will be applied to this channel?

Yes.

[Fungus]

... it is not better as a scope compared to SDS800X HD.

Really? You have one of them to compare side by side? You've measured bow the waveforms/sec. degrades with memory depth, etc?

[Fungus]

First thing is that we are all so brainwashed with this mentality "This stuff used to cost 1000 USD. I got it for 600 USD so I got a good deal". That theory has two flaws: First, if 1000 USD was realistic price it would fly off the shelves and there would be no price cuts. Especially if you are alone in a market in that market segment. That simply shows that 600 USD is simply a price people are willing to pay for it. So that is it's "real" price.  Previously it was overpriced. Second flaw is that product can have different value to user despite brochures looking similar.

If it works as well (or better than) my DHO800 and he wanted a bigger screen then it's a good deal compared to anything else in that price range.

Is it a good deal compared to some mythical unicorn that's just a 3D render right now and might cost a lot more? Who knows? Certainly not you.

[Antonio90]

The difference is in the number of ADCs. With dual ADC, channels 1 and 2 are connected to one ADC, and channels 3 and 4 to the other.
That makes the max sampling rate 1GS/s.
With a single 2GS/s all channels are connected to the one ADC. As such, the max sampling rate with a single channel active will be double.

Moreover, with the single ADC example and two channels active, the sampling rate will always be half of the max. available.

With two ADCs you need to use one channel per ADC to get 1GS/s on both, IE channel 1+3, 2+4, 1+4 or 2+3.

[2N3055]

... it is not better as a scope compared to SDS800X HD.

Really? You have one of them to compare side by side? You've measured bow the waveforms/sec. degrades with memory depth, etc?

I know exactly what I'm saying... Wfm/s second in trick modes and what degrades ?

First thing is that we are all so brainwashed with this mentality "This stuff used to cost 1000 USD. I got it for 600 USD so I got a good deal". That theory has two flaws: First, if 1000 USD was realistic price it would fly off the shelves and there would be no price cuts. Especially if you are alone in a market in that market segment. That simply shows that 600 USD is simply a price people are willing to pay for it. So that is it's "real" price.  Previously it was overpriced. Second flaw is that product can have different value to user despite brochures looking similar.

If it works as well (or better than) my DHO800 and he wanted a bigger screen then it's a good deal compared to anything else in that price range.

Fact that DHO1000 has practically same capability as your DHO800 IS the problem..
I enumerated quickly all the stuff it cannot do....

Facts, not personal attacks...

[rf-loop]

About this SDS800: I'm not sure where this could arrive in price. Its already a confusing product stack with useless 2 channel models and a lot of scopes with huge feature difference at around 400 EUR. And it's yet another case for some reason. I mean the SDS1202X-E comes from a different injection mould than the SDS1204X-E. This could fit into that mould but no, let's make a new one.

AFAIKT SDS800X HD uses the SDS11/1204X-E mold and only the HW, display and the colour changes.

Case front part mold is different in SDS800XHD and SDS1004X-E. The same injection mold cannot be used. So some investment for new modified injection mold even when there is lot of similarities.
There can be also some other differences than what is visible on the outside. At a quick glance it looks similar, but... it's not. One can see the difference when look more closely at the picture of the starting message of this thread and compare with SDS1004X-E

[Neutrion]

Ok, the edges look different.

But in this case, a bigger screen with the same resolution could be used. But even the "useful" part of this  7" screen does not fill the space. An 8" one maybe?

And of course Wf update hopefully wont't get so low as that of the DHO800.

BTW the 1104x-e's buttons look better, and with strong enviromental light they are much better to see especially if this new one will be only aviable in black...
And no I would not push the LEDs more because than it would be annoying in a darker setting. If the LEDS could withstand it at all.

[Neutrion]

Well of course the SW enabled things are a ripoff. But I don't think that lower end doesn't make any profit in itself, but probably less than high end ones. But than it is much less sold from the pricey things, it is also a factor. Would be interesting to know how many is sold from the 1104x-e and the 1054z.

[tv84]

Given the number of models being launched by Siglent and Rigol I wouldn't say they are going through financial difficulties.

So, every device they sell has a profit margin. Bigger or smaller, with more or less licenses, all of the models.

[tautech]

Given the number of models being launched by Siglent and Rigol I wouldn't say they are going through financial difficulties.

Consider instead their home markets are troubled......do remember their home markets are large......
Western markets benefit.......

[Martin72]

Case front part mold is different in SDS800XHD and SDS1004X-E. The same injection mold cannot be used. So some investment for new modified injection mold even when there is lot of similarities.
There can be also some other differences than what is visible on the outside. At a quick glance it looks similar, but... it's not. One can see the difference when look more closely at the picture of the starting message of this thread and compare with SDS1004X-E

I'll take the liberty.

[Antonio90]

Given the number of models being launched by Siglent and Rigol I wouldn't say they are going through financial difficulties.

Consider instead their home markets are troubled......do remember their home markets are large......
Western markets benefit.......

How are their home markets troubled? New chinese T&M companies competing for the 'scope market in China?

[mouz]

But does it have a VESA mount ? and a si(g)lent cooling fan ?

[NE666]

The price difference between the DS7014 and the MSO7014 is 700 EUR, the feature difference is the logic analyzer. Which is blocked out with plastic if
"Oh, you have a nice scope, let's ask more money for the same features."

Except that's not correct, is it.  They are not "the same".  The DS has literally 2.51.25x the sampling rate at full channel, plus 2.5x the memory whilst doing it.  Not to mention that the DS7000 front end is rated up to 500MHz, as compared to 350 on the MSO5000.  These aren't trivial differences.

Which manufacturers do you know that charge less, or even the same, for such a difference?

[NE666]

Well of course the SW enabled things are a ripoff.

You're not a software engineer, are you?  They do generally like to be paid for the work they are asked to do, as they like to eat and live in houses.  Do you consider the monetary value of your own labours to be a ripoff?

Software isn't free.  Not even open source, although some people seem to think that these things are synonymous.  Software development costs can be a very large contributor to a project and, as ebastler has very articulately explained twice already, these costs have to be amortised over all models in a range.  Either everyone pays more, or premium users carry the higher burden.  I think most hobbyists are very glad that the latter is in effect.

[Antonio90]

Given the number of models being launched by Siglent and Rigol I wouldn't say they are going through financial difficulties.
So, every device they sell has a profit margin. Bigger or smaller, with more or less licenses, all of the models.

I never claimed they are selling anything at a loss. But the fully loaded and the high-end models obviously have better margins. If they wanted to establish a pricnig structure based on cost + x% markup instead, the entry-level instruments would need to become more expensive, is all I say.

Siglent is significantly more profitable than Rigol, by the way. Siglent's profit margin is above 30%, while Rigol's is around 15%. Depending on your feelings for Siglent, interpret that as either "they are smarter" or "they are more greedy". 

Is that margin considering only hardware costs? My guess is that Siglent spends more in software development, and they also release their products later.
I don't have knowledge to presume the impact of delayed releases (comparatively speaking) in the higher-end models, but in the hobbyist market it seems to be a relevant factor.
Also, it would be interesting to compare Rigol and Siglent's market share.
EDIT: Would that mean they are losing money with the DHO1000 promotion? And quite a bit too.

[Fungus]

Same thing as what I tried to explain, really: End-user pricing is not based on manufacturing cost of the instrument, but on customer value and oscilloscope "classes" defined by the manufacturers.

If is was than a Rigol DHO900 would cost about $2 more than a DHO800.

(or might even cost less if black plastic is cheaper than white plastic)