Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's

[scopeman]

I just noticed this because the Batterfly video popped up.

Obviously will be directly compared with the Rigol 800/900
So far I see no VESA mount and no HDMI, two of the big additions to the Rigol 800/900. You could also add in USB-C power and the slim form factor, but that's always arguable.

You could also add no flex knobs which is a feature I really like.

Now if I could just get the uncluttered up and down cursor arrows like LeCroy has on their scopes insead of those screen cluttering lines common for vertical and horizontal measurements on the HDO1204 and the 800/900 series Rigol I'd be set.

Sam

[EEVblog]

I just noticed this because the Batterfly video popped up.

Obviously will be directly compared with the Rigol 800/900
So far I see no VESA mount and no HDMI, two of the big additions to the Rigol 800/900. You could also add in USB-C power and the slim form factor, but that's always arguable.

Dave, instead of locking the other SDS800X HD thread can you consider merging it into this with the blessing of the other OP, PELL ?
There is content that is worthy of being included here.

If he asks, yes.

[tautech]

since that thread is locked, my focus will get here then... imho that thread discuss more focus about the price of SDS800X vs DHO800/900, i'm eager to wait if its true. this thread may discuss about details and specs which not interest me until the real price is out in aliexpress... if the expected price is untrue, there's no point of me continue following this thread... fwiw...

Yeah I wonder if Dave spent the few minutes to read it before he got the padlock out.
It’s not like there is just one DHO800 thread…….

[EEVblog]

since that thread is locked, my focus will get here then... imho that thread discuss more focus about the price of SDS800X vs DHO800/900, i'm eager to wait if its true. this thread may discuss about details and specs which not interest me until the real price is out in aliexpress... if the expected price is untrue, there's no point of me continue following this thread... fwiw...

Yeah I wonder if Dave spent the few minutes to read it before he got the padlock out.
It’s not like there is just one DHO800 thread…….

Geeze, I'm just trying to keep things consolidated where appropriate, because, you know, people complain about multiple threads messing things up all the time.
Both threads seemed to be generally focussed on the new scope, it's not like one was focussed on hacking or something.  Have a thread just for pricing, really?

[tautech]

In the 800X HD video (which is very nicely made btw!), Siglent are showing a large external screen in two of the usage scenarios, including mouse and touch operation on that screen. I assume that's done via an external PC and a browser in full-screen mode?

No, the other screen displays the webserver from an analyzer.

[tautech]

In the 800X HD video (which is very nicely made btw!), Siglent are showing a large external screen in two of the usage scenarios, including mouse and touch operation on that screen. I assume that's done via an external PC and a browser in full-screen mode?

No, the other screen displays the webserver from an analyzer.

I was not asking about the second large screen -- I realize that the 800X HD won't support two of them. What I was asking about are the large display used with the logic analyzer, around 1:15, and the one on the left around 1:40. Siglent presumably didn't add a video output to the 800X HD at the last minute, so these are using the web server, right?

Yep webserver only.

[rf-loop]

Presented on the batterfly channel...
The answer is given which entry-level 12 bit scope will come in Q1/24...

That would be a pity; I would prefer the 1000X HD due to its larger screen.

In the 800X HD video (which is very nicely made btw!), Siglent are showing a large external screen in two of the usage scenarios, including mouse and touch operation on that screen. I assume that's done via an external PC and a browser in full-screen mode?

Yep... 

But, customer can select what model to buy!

When I have handled the SDS1004X-E model quite a lot over years (quite similar case and physical UI as 800X HD) and then some SDS1000X HD model, it is quite clear that I would choose the SDS1000X HD if physical handling alone were a selection criterion.  It also feels lot of more high quality product. And this "feel" is also important...  (but when money talks, specially in many hobbyist cases, with 800x HD he get almost same functions/features and performance)

Mechanically and front panel UI/UX they are as different as night and day in this respect. The 1000X HD is built like a robust tank compared to the lightweight 800 model. Look at encoders for example.
Attach the probe to the connector. The 1000X HD model will stay put, but the 800X HD model will run away if you don't stop it (4.1kg vs 2.6kg). Externally and mechanically, the 1000X HD is like the 2000X HD.

If only one could choose whether to buy black or stylish grey, (Who is first manufacturer what offer this....   why not...why I can buy blue shirt or white... or black.  It do not cost much if this is made with some clever way in production, also car color I can select... now it is fiery red because I select performance and features over color (because second hand... need select best car for me not best color even whenj it make some small sense).

The black lab instruments like oscilloscope etc, in My mind they looks more like an entertainment electronics device.  Also it may produce eyes fatigue.

[tautech]

That would be a pity; I would prefer the 1000X HD due to its larger screen.

Yep... 
But, customer can select what model to buy!

The selection is limited by what Siglent are offering for sale... 

At this exact time……..
Currently only 2kX HD and 7kA 12bit models are available but change is near.

[Martin72]

Typically, products introduced in China are brought to the European market after 3/5 months, so we hope to see these models soon in the EU as well.

https://www.batterfly.com/shop/de/blog-posts/siglent-sds800x-hd-oscilloscopes-china

At least there are some nice pictures of the scope.

[rf-loop]

In the 800X HD video (which is very nicely made btw!), Siglent are showing a large external screen in two of the usage scenarios, including mouse and touch operation on that screen. I assume that's done via an external PC and a browser in full-screen mode?

No, the other screen displays the webserver from an analyzer.

I was not asking about the second large screen -- I realize that the 800X HD won't support two of them. What I was asking about are the large display used with the logic analyzer, around 1:15, and the one on the left around 1:40. Siglent presumably didn't add a video output to the 800X HD at the last minute, so these are using the web server, right?

Here just pure fullscreen dump from PC (PC - LAN - SDS(Web server))

[rf-loop]

That would be a pity; I would prefer the 1000X HD due to its larger screen.

Yep... 
But, customer can select what model to buy!

The selection is limited by what Siglent are offering for sale... 

At this exact time……..
Currently only 2kX HD and 7kA 12bit models are available but change is near.

Yes, but this is true at this time only in some peripheral area outside the center (China)

[Mechatrommer]

Typically, products introduced in China are brought to the European market after 3/5 months, so we hope to see these models soon in the EU as well.

https://www.batterfly.com/shop/de/blog-posts/siglent-sds800x-hd-oscilloscopes-china
At least there are some nice pictures of the scope.

from the video, it can bode plot meaning it has sig gen... it can also do LA with SLA1016 HW? if price is comparable to DHO900, i bet Rigol will pull hair and rethink of their life all this while with their custom ASICs effort. lets see if siglent is able to do this scenario.

The black lab instruments like oscilloscope etc, in My mind they looks more like an entertainment electronics device.  Also it may produce eyes fatigue.

As seen in the 800X HD promo video above, half of the Siglent engineering staff prefer to work in the dark. Maybe that's what drove the colour choice. 

i guess its called modern. anybody remember when PC are all white? now everybody buy black PC...

[Martin72]

SDS802X HD: 70MHz, 2 analog channels
SDS804X HD: 70MHz, 4 analog channels
SDS812X HD: 100MHz, 2 analog channels
SDS814X HD: 100MHz, 4 analog channels

The resemblance is very present, probably not without intention.

[rf-loop]

Typically, products introduced in China are brought to the European market after 3/5 months, so we hope to see these models soon in the EU as well.

https://www.batterfly.com/shop/de/blog-posts/siglent-sds800x-hd-oscilloscopes-china
At least there are some nice pictures of the scope.

from the video, it can bode plot meaning it has sig gen... it can also do LA with SLA1016 HW?

Yes  SDS800X HD and SDS1000X HD:  Optional MSO works with SLA1016



SDS800X HD and SDS1000X HD do not have internal AWG.
Optional:  SAG1021i (connection using SBus, AWG control through oscilloscope UI or under BodePlot direct control)

And naturally all Siglent stand alone SDG models works directly with BodePlot (SDG800 to SDG7000A)
BodePlot max limit is 120MHz or generator max if it is more low. 

[2N3055]

Typically, products introduced in China are brought to the European market after 3/5 months, so we hope to see these models soon in the EU as well.

https://www.batterfly.com/shop/de/blog-posts/siglent-sds800x-hd-oscilloscopes-china
At least there are some nice pictures of the scope.

from the video, it can bode plot meaning it has sig gen... it can also do LA with SLA1016 HW? if price is comparable to DHO900, i bet Rigol will pull hair and rethink of their life all this while with their custom ASICs effort. lets see if siglent is able to do this scenario.

The black lab instruments like oscilloscope etc, in My mind they looks more like an entertainment electronics device.  Also it may produce eyes fatigue.

As seen in the 800X HD promo video above, half of the Siglent engineering staff prefer to work in the dark. Maybe that's what drove the colour choice. 

i guess its called modern. anybody remember when PC are all white? now everybody buy black PC...

Siglent scopes Bode works with internal or external AWG.

[Fungus]

SDS802X HD: 70MHz, 2 analog channels
SDS804X HD: 70MHz, 4 analog channels
SDS812X HD: 100MHz, 2 analog channels
SDS814X HD: 100MHz, 4 analog channels

The resemblance is very present, probably not without intention.

I wonder what the measured bandwidth will be.

[2N3055]

SDS802X HD: 70MHz, 2 analog channels
SDS804X HD: 70MHz, 4 analog channels
SDS812X HD: 100MHz, 2 analog channels
SDS814X HD: 100MHz, 4 analog channels

The resemblance is very present, probably not without intention.

I wonder what the measured bandwidth will be.

Ohh,  are you planning to get one?

Like with all of the others, a bit wider than claimed 200 MHz.
When someone gets one for testing, I'm sure they will measure it for you...

[GnomeZA]

I don't own a single piece of Rigol equipment, I have SDS1104X-E, SPD3303X-E & SDL1020X-E.
Now with that out of the way, this scope from Siglent looks more like an evolution.
They took existing scope and made some improvements to stay competitive with the Rigol model.
At least that is the impression I'm getting here.

What I like about the Rigol model is the whole Android and external PSU approach tells me they are moving in a different direction with their products.
Not seeing the same thing here from Siglent.

I'm not entirely sure how long these non-Android scopes will be able to hold out.

[Martin72]

When someone gets one for testing, I'm sure they will measure it for you...

You can bet on it..

[Antonio90]

I don't think Android has any inherent advantage over regular Linux for a bench scope. Other than initial ease of development and abundance of developpers for the platform.
Once you have an estabilished platform and software crew, the advantages stop.

[GnomeZA]

I don't think Android has any inherent advantage over regular Linux for a bench scope. Other than initial ease of development and abundance of developpers for the platform.
Once you have an estabilished platform and software crew, the advantages stop.

The market has a lot more Android developers.
It allows them to use a higher level language (Kotlin), which speeds up your development significantly.
The UI on Android is years beyond Linux.
Android is getting constant investment with enormous amounts of financial investment, hyper focused on the UI.

Both are Linux kernels underneath, but Linux has very weak UIs and UI tooling.
On Linux there is very little investment in their UI because there is no market for it, desktop Linux is really small.
The Linux market is server.

Since Android is hyper focused on UI it has a large amount of ongoing investment.
Additionally you can use mobile chips and their GPUs for rendering on Android and leverage what is around since, again that is a large portion of what Android is about.
And since most of these scope companies probably want to focus on the hardware and low level parts of the scope, it would be great to offload a lot of the UI and get improvements in UI without needing to spend any money on it at all.

The UI of a scope is a pretty significant part of the experience and the fact that a lot of scopes have dog slow UIs and the UI slows down when there is a lot of action tells me there is an opportunity to build a much better product at a significantly reduced cost.

[Antonio90]

I don't think Android has any inherent advantage over regular Linux for a bench scope. Other than initial ease of development and abundance of developpers for the platform.
Once you have an estabilished platform and software crew, the advantages stop.

The market has a lot more Android developers.
It allows them to use a higher level language (Kotlin), which speeds up your development significantly.
The UI on Android is years beyond Linux.
Android is getting constant investment with enormous amounts of financial investment, hyper focused on the UI.

Both are Linux kernels underneath, but Linux has very weak UIs and UI tooling.
On Linux there is very little investment in their UI because there is no market for it, desktop Linux is really small.
The Linux market is server.

Since Android is hyper focused on UI it has a large amount of ongoing investment.
Additionally you can use mobile chips and their GPUs for rendering on Android and leverage what is around since, again that is a large portion of what Android is about.

It is an enormous advantage.

There are initial advantages indeed:
UI is important, but if you have a line of products sharing the platform, once you develop the general UI, it is a non-isue, so, as I said, it is an initial advantage, but once the platform is mature, it doesn't make a difference.

Availability of developpers is also important, as it makes it easier to estabilish your software staff initialy WRT general development unrelated to oscilloscope specifics. I would be surprised if getting programmers that know how to propperly implement oscilloscope functionality is easier for Android. Once you have your software crew, the advantage mostly vanishes.

Hardware compatibility and economy of scale might actually be a bigger factor, as you stated, for graphics, processors and maybe screens, which can drive the cost down and make sourcing parts easier.
Maybe this has some influence on the HDMI out of basic Rigol scopes, while not even the SDS2000X-HD has video out.

All in all, it probably has helped them getting the scope to market with basic functionality fast, but won't help them polish it properly in the stuff that actually makes it an oscilloscope.

[JPortici]

The UI on Android is years beyond Linux.

UI in android is a gigantic piece of shit. i hate developing for android with all my heart, the only thing i hate more is developing for iOS. But at least UI behaviour in iOS is consistent and not changed at every major release
It's really hard in android to make an UI not looking like duplo, or some other toy, hard in sense that they make it so much difficult to do ANYTHING
(my current level of hell of android is nonlinear font scaling, messing up UIs and making all algorythms for autoscale loop forever because you set the font size to be 10 (for example) but then the view reports 8.123920353209. The official autosize method doesn't work exept for the most basic stuff. Want to autosize a layout before presenting it to the user? you can't. want to autosize to be syncronous so you can do things in order? well it's not.)

It's linux, give me C++ and Qt any day of the year.

screw kotlin as well, because of kotlin you can't find a guide to get something done in java, and all nontrivial stuff can't be done in kotlin. (Same for swift)

[Fungus]

Ohh,  are you planning to get one?

Nope.

Like with all of the others, a bit wider than claimed 200 MHz.
When someone gets one for testing, I'm sure they will measure it for you...

Read it again: They claim 100MHz.

I mention is because the Rigols have massively more bandwidth than advertised, not just "a bit".

[Fungus]

I don't think Android has any inherent advantage over regular Linux for a bench scope. Other than initial ease of development and abundance of developpers for the platform.
Once you have an estabilished platform and software crew, the advantages stop.

Linux isn't known for it's UI toolkits.

The chipset inside the Rigols is designed around Android. An Android system will be far more integrated/robust than somebody trying to cobble together a Linux system.