Siglent SDS3000X HD and upgraded SDS1000X HD

[Performa01]

I am curious whether there is a technical reason for Siglent's conservative choice of screen resolution, use of "straight" bitmap fonts and reluctance to include video outputs. Are they driving the LCD directly from the FPGA maybe, and not from the SOC's CPU?

That would guarantee high screen update rates and low lag. But it would also mean that HDMI output, larger frame buffers and anti-aliased fonts do not come "for free" with the SOC, but would take valuable FPGA resources which may be better used elsewhere.

Is it known, e.g. from a teardown of the SDS2000X HD, how the LCD is driven?

When the current non-touch SW platform was born in late 2015, as we still know its mature form from the SDS1000X-E today, it has been introduced in the SDS2000 back then, followed by SDS2000X, SDS1000X and SDS1000X plus if I remember correctly. All these instruments have already had the SPO technology, i.e. the very nice intensity- and color grading. But all these instruments were driven by just a single DSP (Analog Devices 400MHz Blackfin) and one or more FPGAs.

These have been 8-bit machines throughout and the screen height was 480 pixel. As a consequence, there has been a fixed mapping of two vertical screen pixel to one LSB of the sample data. Display area was limited to 400 pixels, hence 200 LSB. The rest was just headroom.

I'm pretty certain that it's not the cost of the LCD panel, which dictates the choice of screen resolution. One should consider what higher resolution means: more memory, especially for the "heat map" required for intensity grading, correspondingly more data transfer bandwidth, more processing power...

The old SDS2000X with its 8" 800 x 480 Display provided faster trigger rates than todays 2000X plus/HD series: it were up to 140 kWfm/s back then, despite the rather weak (by today's standards) Blackfin processor. That should be a dead giveaway where the main video processing is actually done...

Even Rigol have a fixed resolution for the traces, independent of the screen resolution. Yes, their rendering is nicer. Siglent rather focused on DSO functionality instead 

[2N3055]

At 60cm distance (good estimate by the way) pixel is not discernible by naked eye.

Again, unlike most of people here discussing this useless bullshit, I have the scope for two years.
No, you cannot see pixels with naked eye.

Well, I don't know about you, but I wear glasses. 🥸😉😉

I do also, but don't clean them very often... 

Jokes on the side, you can see one pixel is lit or not on black surface. You see white dot.
But you cannot see if it is one bright or two dim neighbouring pixels if you don't come closer than at hand distance. Cca 60cm.
If you can, that is fantastic, happy for you!

I was not referring to steps... There is whole screen resolution and DPI discussion ...

[switchabl]

I'm pretty certain that it's not the cost of the LCD panel, which dictates the choice of screen resolution. One should consider what higher resolution means: more memory, especially for the "heat map" required for intensity grading, correspondingly more data transfer bandwidth, more processing power...

[...]

Even Rigol have a fixed resolution for the traces, independent of the screen resolution. Yes, their rendering is nicer. Siglent rather focused on DSO functionality instead 

The buffer used for intensity grading is almost certainly realized as block RAM inside the FPGA. Increasing the resolution either means reducing the number of levels or using a larger (more expensive) FPGA with more block RAM. You can do some tricks, like drawing single shot traces/slow timebases using the CPU. But beyond that you mostly just get what you pay for.

Rigol uses a different architecture with a dedicated application processor including a proper GPU. They get high resolution video with nice scaling (and HDMI output) basically for free. It's a different story with the Zynq 7000/Zynq US+ CG SoCs. Those do not come with any hard IP for video, anything you need you have to spend logic resources on. For what it's worth, I doubt this was a major design consideration in either case. It's just the way that things worked out.

[skander36]

I know they have a web server on the scope for remote control, but the web server control is just so slow and unresponsive compared to the knobs or just using a mouse directly with the scope. And the web interface doesn't scale / adjust well with different browser window sizes.

That's a weird take. I've found the web interface to be nearly real time, with no real perceptible lag. I've never had any issues with it. I think if you're experiencing lag issues, it's a network problem, not a scope problem. And I only have an SDS2504XP, which I assume is slower than the newer / higher level HD models.

I think you are aware that this is a thread about 3000X-HD and 1000X-HD. Maybe yor scope is capable of "nearly realtime" but I can assure you that on SDS1000X-HD at least, there is a clear difference between scope screen and what is displayed on the web interface. And no, is not about the network speed.

Well than be correct and specific.
Their what parameter of 10" screen is lagging behind?

Anti glare coating?
Resolution?
Brightens?
View angle?
Color reproduction?
Dynamic response?
Readability of numeric data ?
...

You forgot the contrast rate. This is the only thing I had seen as lower on the SDS1000X-HD. Otherwise is very good.
If you work only with it you will see no issue, but if you compare with DHO1K for ex. you will remark the difference.


About the resolution on 10" I think that is more than enough. I can barely see the pixels.
The proof is that the math traces looks very nice so the display is capable.
I think the discussions about why should be marginal. The scope is very capable through the software applications.
But peoples should see and decide for themself.
They are aware of what is important on a scope are measurement and analisys capabilities.
One should not telling them: "This is only you need to know. The rest is not important for you." 

[tautech]

I know they have a web server on the scope for remote control, but the web server control is just so slow and unresponsive compared to the knobs or just using a mouse directly with the scope. And the web interface doesn't scale / adjust well with different browser window sizes.

That's a weird take. I've found the web interface to be nearly real time, with no real perceptible lag. I've never had any issues with it. I think if you're experiencing lag issues, it's a network problem, not a scope problem. And I only have an SDS2504XP, which I assume is slower than the newer / higher level HD models.

I think you are aware that this is a thread about 3000X-HD and 1000X-HD. Maybe yor scope is capable of "nearly realtime" but I can assure you that on SDS1000X-HD at least, there is a clear difference between scope screen and what is displayed on the web interface. And no, is not about the network speed.

Not seen this.
As an early adopter you may be seeing something that will not be there when western firmware updates get released.

[DaneLaw]

I know they have a web server on the scope for remote control, but the web server control is just so slow and unresponsive compared to the knobs or just using a mouse directly with the scope. And the web interface doesn't scale / adjust well with different browser window sizes.

That's a weird take. I've found the web interface to be nearly real time, with no real perceptible lag. I've never had any issues with it. I think if you're experiencing lag issues, it's a network problem, not a scope problem. And I only have an SDS2504XP, which I assume is slower than the newer / higher level HD models.

I think you are aware that this is a thread about 3000X-HD and 1000X-HD. Maybe your scope is capable of "nearly realtime" but I can assure you that on SDS1000X-HD at least, there is a clear difference between scope screen and what is displayed on the web interface. And no, is not about the network speed.

Maybe record a small side-by-side video-segment with the traces in roll mode on your SDS1000X-HD, alongside your web-screen on this browser-based interface.
Would give an idea of both the update rate & the lag you're experiencing, so things ain't relative, as individual perception can vary a lot from one to the next - would also give other users/owners of various Siglent models (with web-control ability) the chance to relate, and if your scenario also matches their experience or if it's down to fx a given firmware on your early-day's-import unit or third-party network issues.

// An old example https://i.imgur.com/L2IxS2b.mp4 (*APK/IPA/EXE)

[Personwithhats]

Any idea if/when the new releases will have promotions? The SDS2000X HD analysis deal is valid until 6/30 so I doubt it'd be getting any.

[skander36]

...
Not seen this.
As an early adopter you may be seeing something that will not be there when western firmware updates get released.

Isn't SDS1000X-HD already available on the western market? I am already running 1.1.3.1 Fw. version, that fixed two bugs described earlier.

Maybe record a small side-by-side video-segment with the traces in roll mode on your SDS1000X-HD, alongside your web-screen on this browser-based interface.
Would give an idea of both the update rate & the lag you're experiencing, so things ain't relative, as individual perception can vary a lot from one to the next - would also give other users/owners of various Siglent models (with web-control ability) the chance to relate, and if your scenario also matches their experience or if it's down to fx a given firmware on your early-day's-import unit or third-party network issues.

// An old example https://i.imgur.com/9K0mJxu.mp4 (*APK/IPA/EXE)

yeah clasic ...show us a movie, but whatever you show your scope is broken, or you may have network problems ... Then what for ... ?
The ideea was that one canot reply to a comment that a scope is slow witht he argument that his scope is fast while this is different(SDS2504XP). Maybe his scope is really a Nascar scope , look at the 2000X-HD which has 4 FPGA's while the 1000X-HD do everything with a sinlge one.

P.S. The scenario with roll mode suggested by you is quite hard.(video replaced with a more focused one) - https://youtube.com/shorts/92lAS9aj12c
A more  normal approach is here in free running. - https://youtu.be/OCh8_iVbInU
And you can exclude the network. I'm good at networks ...

[Martin72]

Isn't SDS1000X-HD already available on the western market?

I haven't seen any in stock at any dealer yet.

[DaneLaw]

Maybe record a small side-by-side video-segment with the traces in roll mode on your SDS1000X-HD, alongside your web-screen on this browser-based interface.
Would give an idea of both the update rate & the lag you're experiencing, so things ain't relative, as individual perception can vary a lot from one to the next - would also give other users/owners of various Siglent models (with web-control ability) the chance to relate, and if your scenario also matches their experience or if it's down to fx a given firmware on your early-day's-import unit or third-party network issues.

// An old example https://i.imgur.com/9K0mJxu.mp4 (*APK/IPA/EXE)

yeah clasic ...show us a movie, but whatever you show your scope is broken, or you may have network problems ... Then what for ... ?
The ideea was that one canot reply to a comment that a scope is slow witht he argument that his scope is fast while this is different(SDS2504XP). Maybe his scope is really a Nascar scope , look at the 2000X-HD which has 4 FPGA's while the 1000X-HD do everything with a sinlge one.

P.S. The scenario with roll mode suggested by you is quite hard.(video replaced with a more focused one) - https://youtube.com/shorts/92lAS9aj12c
A more  normal approach is here in free running. - https://youtu.be/OCh8_iVbInU
And you can exclude the network. I'm good at networks ...

Calm down, and quit the hysteric tone, Im trying to help you to get your point across,
Nobody is saying you're bad at networking, are you level..
You made a video, hurra, that will give other users an idea on what your experiencing and people with the same web interface can relate to the issues your whining about.

[skander36]

Calm down, and quit the hysteric tone, Im trying to help you to get your point across,
Nobody is saying you're bad at networking, are you level..
You made a video, hurra, that will give other users an idea on what your experiencing and people with the same web interface can relate to the issues your whining about.

You are hysteric one here ...  I am just amused.

[DaneLaw]

Calm down, and quit the hysteric tone, Im trying to help you to get your point across,
Nobody is saying you're bad at networking, are you level..
You made a video, hurra, that will give other users an idea on what your experiencing and people with the same web interface can relate to the issues your whining about.

You are hysteric one here ...  I am just amused.

I doubt it, with that approach. more like a handful as you're concluding things that nobody is saying.
Where does anybody indicate that you're bad at networking.?

What exactly are trying to show with these monotone/consistent waveforms?  https://youtube.com/shorts/92lAS9aj12c - https://youtu.be/OCh8_iVbInU 
Wasn't it the LAG you were whining about,? hence the scenario' that what you saw on your screen, wasn't the same on the web interface and it was very far from an aspect of "real-time".
Usually down to lag, and there is a delay - and both of your videos, mostly give an idea of the update rate... hmm whatever.. lag away..I don't have either of these scopes.. but as mentioned above you can hope for an firmware update, its a very new model.

[skander36]

I doubt it, with that approach. more like a handful as you're concluding things that nobody is saying.
Where does anybody indicate that you're bad at networking.?

What exactly are trying to show with these monotone/consistent waveforms?  https://youtube.com/shorts/92lAS9aj12c - https://youtu.be/OCh8_iVbInU 
Wasn't it the LAG you were whining about,? hence the scenario' that what you saw on your screen, wasn't the same on the web interface and it was very far from an aspect of "real-time".
Usually down to lag, and there is a delay - and both of your videos, mostly give an idea of the update rate... hmm whatever.. lag away..I don't have either of these scopes.. but as mentioned above you can hope for an firmware update, its a very new model.

Your posts are very aggresive. I am not "whining" ...
I have done those videos at your request, even I didn't have the intention before. You intervened in the discussion and ask me. The discussion was about the lag from what you see on the scope screen and what you see on the web browser.
I've should ignore you.

[DaneLaw]

Nobody is aggressive Skander36, but it's an offended way to reply when people trying to help you on ways to get your issue across, - then to second guess one's motives, - as the aspect of what is "realtime" in a given webOS can vary a lot from one to the next - when it's down to something as relative as an individual perception of real-time - and what each of us finds acceptable.

yeah clasic ...show us a movie, but whatever you show your scope is broken, or you may have network problems ... Then what for ... ?
..
I'm good at networks ...

I get that your first reply to me, #455, - its likely not directed at me in full, but still its a precarious offended attitude to meet other people who are trying to help you, and then second guess my motive.

It's like you feel I'm attacking you and you need to excuse yourself upfront for whatever your mind can summon of possible attacks, but there is nothing in my first posts #453 that do anything other than try to help you, visualize the issues you're experiencing, that you claim are far from what other users are indicating.
I get' that your offended attitude could be down to other clashes you have had previously, with other users, but maybe not the right approach when users are trying to help you.

As I explained in my first pots, #453 there is both lag (ms delay) and there is the update rate..
It's not the same, and both factors can be a problem when not having a "real-time" experience.
* Lag, as in the timely ms-delay from when things unfold on the screen to it is shown on your WebOS.
* Update rate, the frequency that the WebOS updates your screen content, as it can be close to useless in practise, if it is only a few times per second as we saw in the past on some models..

And you keep referring to "lag", and it ain't real-time, the data that takes place on your scope to when it enters your WebOS, but both your two videos, are with consistent waveforms, that makes it somewhat difficult to tell, what lag you're having, as there could be seconds of lag, or it could be close to instant but with no reference point it's difficult to tell, - its mostly the update rate, your video gives an idea off - but its still better then nothing and other users can relate and inform you if it matches what they are encountering.

Why I showed the old example in #453 as you can sense how far the lagging on the tablet is behind the actual scope, alongside the update rate.
In plan ms-values, its a tad under 1/3 of a sec... web-stopwatch with granular ms-details  https://tinyurl.com/4vymssfp  I get that approach ain't relevant on your scope, and why I showed the rolling/tail as a crude example for that timespan of lag delay  https://i.imgur.com/L2IxS2b.mp4

Anyway, let's move forward, I don't have any horses in this race, don't have this scope you imported from China, but you can put up a small campfire for the future, as there is a big chance that it will be optimized five ways to Sunday, and many of these aspects that you find far from ideal, will only get better.. its very early days for SDS1000X HD.

[skander36]

Man ... free your mind ... too many unreal scenarios about me ...
My post was to another post where I said that some scopes can be more powerfull than others so they can have differents response time.So it's beter to compare the same scopes.(For ex. Tautech answer me that it has not seeing lag on 1000X-HD_1 which is ok).
I don't need to hope for an improvement on this issue with web interface (btw. WebOs is on operating system on LG TV's), it is my least problem. I'm glad that they have fixed other things. 

P.S. "I'm good at networks" means "Trust me".

[DaneLaw]

WebOs is on operating system on LG TV's), it is my least problem
P.S. "I'm good at networks" means "Trust me".

You're one very heavy dude..that's for sure.

https://youtu.be/Cxh_Liay09E?si=P13kmP021f_M5j3Q&t=144

[egonotto]

Hello,

I hope that the SDS3000X HD will arrive before Easter 2024.

Best regards
egonotto

[Martin72]

Batronix told me around March 29th - But that's already a holiday, so I think more after Easter.
But I wouldn't be sad if they were wrong.

[Antonio90]

Hello,

I hope that the SDS3000X HD will arrive before Easter 2024.

Best regards
egonotto

I'm waiting for the little brother still, too. It's been a bit of a strange "release".

[KungFuJosh]

I'm waiting for the little brother still, too. It's been a bit of a strange "release".

"That's what she said."

[Martin72]

I'm waiting for the little brother still, too. It's been a bit of a strange "release".

Not being able to meet delivery deadlines is something I know enough about, and it's no different for us (at work).
Everyone knows the bottlenecks with electronic components, so you would think that our customers would understand if the deadline is postponed.
But they don't.
That's why I have a certain understanding for the current situation and am making do with the SDS804X HD for the time being.

[Antonio90]

I understand that too, life happens. We often don't get to have more time at work, as we deal mostly with legal deadlines, but then, the job depends mostly on our own work.
It just looks to me like there should have been an SDS800 release date, and a different one for the higher-end models. A minimum of a month delay for stock (if not three, as there are quotes for may), just means the scopes are not released.

EDIT: also, there are forum members with an SDS3000X-HD already, am I wrong? Why don't we have any kind of demo if the scopes are already out?

[Martin72]

I knew very early on which models would be coming onto the market and when.
And some of the warehouses were supposed to be full by the deadline, so something unexpected must have happened that prevented this from happening.
The 804 probably still "got through", but not in such quantities that even a distributor like Batronix didn't get any of the cake (Welectron and Batterfly did).

[Antonio90]

Didn't have that data, thanks. I'm just impatient, but complaining is useless I suppose. I'll keep making do with the AD2 then

[tautech]

I knew very early on which models would be coming onto the market and when.
And some of the warehouses were supposed to be full by the deadline, so something unexpected must have happened that prevented this from happening.
The 804 probably still "got through", but not in such quantities that even a distributor like Batronix didn't get any of the cake (Welectron and Batterfly did).

Ours are still weeks away having just got off the production line. 
US and EU Siglent branches nabbed all the first production runs.....