Siglent SDS2000X Plus

[BillyO]

Yeah, considering the premium you pay for faster probes (over $900 for the Tek P6139B) it does seems a little silly to say passive probes are useless above 100MHz.   I know my 500MHz scope benefits from using 500MHz probes over 100MHz probes.  The difference is immediately obvious.

[tautech]

It is amazing how the misinformation about probes keeps floating around, spread by folks who quite obviously never measured the system performance of any scope/probe combination.

PASSIVE probes don't merely stop at 500MHz, and for good reason.  They also come in 700MHz variants...
https://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RT-ZP11/Standard-/-Passive-Oscilloscope-Probes/
https://youtu.be/txPxo4TA0i4?t=406

Taking your words deeper, it seems you are basically saying this: "Stop worrying about the probe MHz rating because they are passive probes and therefore are not terribly useful for practical work at frequencies above 100MHz. Be they 100MHz, 200MHz, 350MHz, 500MHz, 700MHz, or 1GHz passive probes, those differences don't matter -- they aren't so useful above 100MHz."

Seriously?

Yes seriously !
Even the pornograhic  probe Dave showed loads the DUT 9.5pf < a significant amount for some circuits.

However passive probes are the everyday tool but you need understand their limitations. 

[BillyO]

Even the pornograhic  probe Dave showed loads the DUT 9.5pf < a significant amount for some circuits.

However passive probes are the everyday tool but you need understand their limitations. 

Well, my P6139 probes are only 8pF (measured too), so there.

But seriously, there a lot of cases where 8pF is not going to make a huge difference.  Much less of a difference than 14-16pF like most 100MHz probes.

[tautech]

Even the pornograhic  probe Dave showed loads the DUT 9.5pf < a significant amount for some circuits.

However passive probes are the everyday tool but you need understand their limitations. 

Well, my P6139 probes are only 8pF (measured too), so there.

But seriously, there a lot of cases where 8pF is not going to make a huge difference.  Much less of a difference than 14-16pF like most 100MHz probes.

Agreed.

However why do all the main brands also offer active probes ?
Most offer high BW and extremely low input capacitance of 2pf or less < there are valid test cases where this matters.

[BillyO]

Agreed.

However why do all the main brands also offer active probes ?
Most offer high BW and extremely low input capacitance of 2pf or less < there are valid test cases where this matters.

Of course they are better.  And in many cases cost more than the scope.  But when they are what you need, they are indispensable.  The lowest frequency one I think are about 750MHz, like the P6205.  2pF and can be had in good condition for about $200.  But for hobbyist scopes, you also need to spring for a power supply for them.  The best I was able to do in my research was about $700 for two P6205s and the requisite PS.  However, like the dumb toad I am, I waited too long and must now begin my search again..

[Martin72]

Youtube-->Search Passive Probes Oscilloscope-->Keysight videos e.g. Probe pitfalls, difference between active and passive, system bandwith (scope and probe) and so on...

[JDW]

Because this thread is primarily focused on the Siglent SDS2000X Plus, I would simply like to reiterate what I said in my earlier post. If you are buying a 200 MHz scope that comes with 200 MHz probes, because those passive probes are not really ideal for the 200 MHz bandwith that scope anyway – they really should be 350 MHz or higher for a 200 MHz scope — if you merely get a free bandwidth upgrade to 350 MHz, those passive probes will become an even more limiting factor and somewhat nullify the benefits inherent to that scope BW upgrade.

In other words, my argument is that a scope bandwidth upgrade alone is insufficient if you’re not also going to upgrade the probes.

Please don’t take this as an excessive criticism of the bandwith upgrade. I simply wish to say that in light of that fact, a rebate/discount would be better than a scope bandwidth upgrade if you’re not also going to upgrade the probes. And that remains true regardless of whether some people come along and say all passive probes are vastly inferior to often prohibitively expensive active probes!

[tautech]

I played around with my new SDS2000X Plus for a couple of days now and I'm really impressed. There are still a few things that are not obvious to me, like the PP215 probes or especially the stuff that gets shipped with the probes.

There are two yellow "locating sleeves". I know them from an unbranded chinese probe set that i own. But other than the unbranded probes, I cannot fit the sleeves onto the probe and have the tip poking through. Either the tip is too short or I cannot put the sleeve far enough down.

I have 4 probes and thus eight of these sleeves. No combination works.

The sleeves from the other set of probes would almost fit. The tip pokes through just the right amount, but they are too wide and slip off the PP215.

Am I missing something or are these sleeves some kind of joke?

(Attachment Link)

Currently there's a QC/production issue with these from Siglent's probe supplier.
Contact your supplier for more probe accessory packs and have them check they will fit too !

[JDW]

Currently there's a QC/production issue with these from Siglent's probe supplier.
Contact your supplier for more probe accessory packs and have them check they will fit too !

That is troubling information.

So what you’re saying is, if we intend to buy a 2000X Plus series scope from TEquipment, we need to ask them to open the scope and open the probe bags and fit all of the tiny parts to the probe to make sure there’s no issue before they ship to us? That’s especially important for those of us who live outside the US but who still may wish to buy from Tequipment.

[BillyO]

Because this thread is primarily focused on the Siglent SDS2000X Plus, I would simply like to reiterate what I said in my earlier post. If you are buying a 200 MHz scope that comes with 200 MHz probes, because those passive probes are not really ideal for the 200 MHz bandwith that scope anyway – they really should be 350 MHz or higher for a 200 MHz scope — if you merely get a free bandwidth upgrade to 350 MHz, those passive probes will become an even more limiting factor and somewhat nullify the benefits inherent to that scope BW upgrade.

In other words, my argument is that a scope bandwidth upgrade alone is insufficient if you’re not also going to upgrade the probes.

Please don’t take this as an excessive criticism of the bandwith upgrade. I simply wish to say that in light of that fact, a rebate/discount would be better than a scope bandwidth upgrade if you’re not also going to upgrade the probes. And that remains true regardless of whether some people come along and say all passive probes are vastly inferior to often prohibitively expensive active probes!

Maybe you sentiment is true if you are buying aftermarket probes.  As for companies like Siglent, Rigol and guy's like Tek a Keysight, they take the entire system into account.  So, if any of them supply a such-and-such probe with their such-and-such scope, it's because they will deliver their sated performance when used as a complete system.

However, that said, I think you will get more mileage from a free BW upgrade than you think, even given the stock probes.  From my perspective, I think it's kinda cute they offer this as surely they know anyone with a modicum of knowledge can get any BW available if they spend 10 minutes in the effort.

But yeah, a discount would be much better.  And they did have one before Christmas.  A considerable one (like $400).  I guess the old expression "you snooze, you lose"  applies.

[tautech]

Currently there's a QC/production issue with these from Siglent's probe supplier.
Contact your supplier for more probe accessory packs and have them check they will fit too !

That is troubling information.

Yep and factual.
I've let Siglent a couple weeks back know their probe supplier is letting them down. 

So what you’re saying is, if we intend to buy a 2000X Plus series scope from TEquipment, we need to ask them to open the scope and open the probe bags and fit all of the tiny parts to the probe to make sure there’s no issue before they ship to us? That’s especially important for those of us who live outside the US but who still may wish to buy from Tequipment.

Why not source locally in Japan from Wavecrest ?
http://wavecrestkk.co.jp/sl/

[JDW]

I guess the old expression "you snooze, you lose"  applies.

In my case, that old expression doesn’t apply because I didn’t even know about the Siglent 2000X PLUS series until this year, well after that significant discount was long gone. If they still offered that discount today, I would get one in a heartbeat. A free bandwidth upgrade is utterly inadequate to compel me to make a purchase. And I say that while fully recognizing the 2000X Plus series offers the best value of all scopes in that price class.

I don’t say this to criticize. I say it in hopes of seeing another significant discount like that again in the near future. Perhaps unlikely when considering the last major discount happened only a few short months ago, but one can still hope.

[BillyO]

I guess the old expression "you snooze, you lose"  applies.

In my case, that old expression doesn’t apply because I didn’t even know about the Siglent 2000X PLUS series until this year, well after that significant discount was long gone. If they still offered that discount today, I would get one in a heartbeat. A free bandwidth upgrade is utterly inadequate to compel me to make a purchase. And I say that while fully recognizing the 2000X Plus series offers the best value of all scopes in that price class.

I don’t say this to criticize. I say it in hopes of seeing another significant discount like that again in the near future. Perhaps unlikely when considering the last major discount happened only a few short months ago, but one can still hope.

Hang in there.  Siglent offer promotions almost continuously.  But to be honest, their stuff is very much worth the regular asking price.  I bought six instruments from them in the last year and only got two of those on discounts and I'm not a bit disappointed with any of the purchases.  Keep your eye open though, something might come up before long.

[JDW]

Why not source locally in Japan from Wavecrest ?
http://wavecrestkk.co.jp/sl/

Siglent scope pricing here in Japan from authorized vendors is outrageously expensive. And that expensive price goes beyond the current exchange rate. Admittedly, the higher pricing here is often the result of all of the time and expense required to translate everything to Japanese and offer Japanese support. But I require neither, so I would prefer the product to be discounted accordingly.

On top of that, I doubt that the Japanese Siglent vendors offer significant discounts to the level of the one that took place this past December. That’s been my experience living in Japan for the past 29 years. In many cases, the discounts that appear everywhere else in the world outside Japan never appear here.

Price matters.

[BillyO]

Price matters.

Does Japan charge duties on imported electronic test equipment?  Most countries have an agreement on no duties on electronic equipment, but I don't know about Japan.

[tautech]

Price matters.

Does Japan charge duties on imported electronic test equipment?  Most countries have an agreement on no duties on electronic equipment, but I don't know about Japan.

Yes this.
It's very likely Japan by way of import tariffs support their local products.

[JDW]

Japan will tax pretty much everything imported at a 10% rate if the value is over 10000 Yen, unless it is sent as a gift.

But even on the US customs and border control website it says pretty much the same, that anything under US$100 probably won’t be taxed but anything over that probably will be. Whether something is marked as merchandise or a gift probably plays a role as well, although it’s not clear.

It’s interesting how Chinese companies get around this by shipping things with a near zero valuation.

[tautech]

Japan will tax pretty much everything imported at a 10% rate if the value is over 10000 Yen, unless it is sent as a gift.

But even on the US customs and border control website it says pretty much the same, that anything under US$100 probably won’t be taxed but anything over that probably will be. Whether something is marked as merchandise or a gift probably plays a role as well, although it’s not clear.

It’s interesting how Chinese companies get around this by shipping things with a near zero valuation.

You really need check Japan tariff legislation before saying such. Eg, Siglent had reduced margins in the US as a result of Trump Asian bashing laws.
Here in NZ as there are no instruments produced here a zero tarif is in force when I registered for an import license.
The devil is in the detail. 

[tautech]

Why not source locally in Japan from Wavecrest ?
http://wavecrestkk.co.jp/sl/

Siglent scope pricing here in Japan from authorized vendors is outrageously expensive. And that expensive price goes beyond the current exchange rate. Admittedly, the higher pricing here is often the result of all of the time and expense required to translate everything to Japanese and offer Japanese support. But I require neither, so I would prefer the product to be discounted accordingly.

On top of that, I doubt that the Japanese Siglent vendors offer significant discounts to the level of the one that took place this past December. That’s been my experience living in Japan for the past 29 years. In many cases, the discounts that appear everywhere else in the world outside Japan never appear here.

Price matters.

That was a worldwide price reduction including the optional decodes for free. It lasted some 3 months.
All distributors had to comply.

Still, your local distributor will not look favorably at warranty for an instrument sourced offshore and some will flatly refuse to help < something you might want to consider.

[BillyO]

Still, your local distributor will not look favorably at warranty for an instrument sourced offshore and some will flatly refuse to help < something you might want to consider.

This is the real consideration.

On other topics .. The US (and Canada) do usually turn a blind eye to items of a smaller cost, but that's only reasonable.  If they had to scrutinize every  item that crossed the border they would be loosing money.  However, I know for sure neither Canada or the US charge tariffs on electronics.

What an odd place is this tiny planet.

[JDW]

What I spoke of is not a tariff. It’s 10% sales tax.

[tautech]

What I spoke of it’s not a tariff. It’s 10% sales tax.

We have 15% ! It's called GST > Goods and Services Tax but instead we mostly refer to is as Grab, Snatch and Take !

Tariffs are added into import costs and then GST also before any Customs clearance is given < no escaping it. 

[Performa01]

It is amazing how the misinformation about probes keeps floating around, spread by folks who quite obviously never measured the system performance of any scope/probe combination.

PASSIVE probes don't merely stop at 500MHz, and for good reason.  They also come in 700MHz variants...
https://www.tequipment.net/Rohde-&-Schwarz/RT-ZP11/Standard-/-Passive-Oscilloscope-Probes/
https://youtu.be/txPxo4TA0i4?t=406

And even 1GHz variants...
https://download.tek.com/datasheet/TPP1000-TPP0500B-TPP0502-TPP0250-Passive-Voltage-Probe-Datasheet-51W261519.pdf
https://youtu.be/1xicZF9glH0?t=195

Where did I ever say the passive high-Z probes stop at 500 MHz?

I even demonstrated how the Siglent 500 MHz rated SP3050A probes perform well up to more than 1 GHz (when put to the industrial standard test):

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/msg2165488/#msg2165488

So when you say, "A passive high-Z probe isn't terribly useful for practical work at frequencies above 100 MHz, no matter what the bandwidth rating is", that statement seems to knock Dave for using his "not terribly useful" TEK 1GHz PASSIVE probes. 

Taking your words deeper, it seems you are basically saying this: "Stop worrying about the probe MHz rating because they are passive probes and therefore are not terribly useful for practical work at frequencies above 100MHz. Be they 100MHz, 200MHz, 350MHz, 500MHz, 700MHz, or 1GHz passive probes, those differences don't matter -- they aren't so useful above 100MHz."

Seriously?

Yes, seriously.

I should have added "x10 probes", but I thought this goes without saying.

Just do the math and calculate the impedance of your so called "high-Z" probe at 100 MHz – or even 500 MHz.

For those too lazy to do the math: Even at moderate 100 MHz and even a very low tip capacitance of only 10 pF would be just 160 ohms. Yes, the output of a fast line driver can handle that, but at the far end of an 120 ohm transmission line the loading effect will already be unacceptable, even at 100 MHz.

[Performa01]

Yeah, considering the premium you pay for faster probes (over $900 for the Tek P6139B) it does seems a little silly to say passive probes are useless above 100MHz.

You are a native speaker, aren't you? So you really think "not terribly useful" is the same as "useless"?

I know my 500MHz scope benefits from using 500MHz probes over 100MHz probes.  The difference is immediately obvious.

I love such simple claims, without stating any conditions.

I never said that a 500 MHz probe cannot be better than a 100 MHz species. In the linked postings I've clearly explained (and demonstrated) why random scope/probe combinations might or might not work.

I have demonstrated that all serious passive probes work well up to several hundred MHz when the industry standard bandwidth test is performed, no matter what their bandwidth rating is. Above that we might see differences in favor of the more expensive probes, but that has little practical relevance, as the input capacitance is just too high to not affect the majority of measurements, which usually don't happen to be based on 25 ohm sources.

[JDW]

Performa01,
I don't see the point of arguing further. I fail to see that you have contributed anything substantially useful to this discussion since my first post about wanting higher MHz rated passive probes with any scope BW upgrade.  I stand by what I've said.  Specifically...

Including 200MHz probes with a 200MHz scope will OF COURSE allow measurements at 200MHz, but it would be BETTER if the probes were rated higher than the BW of the scope.  Therefore, if one seeks to purchase a 200MHz Siglent 2000X Plus with 200MHz rated passive probes solely because of the free BW upgrade, if you get an scope-only BW upgrade to 300MHz or 350MHz WITHOUT any probe upgrade, it's even less of a desirable situation than the stock 200MHz scope with the 200MHz passive probes.  Will using 200MHz probes on a 350MHz scope make measurements impossible?  No! Of course, not.  But if you had the choice of 200MHz probes or 500MHz probes with a 200MHz or 350MHz scope, which would you choose?  No doubt the higher 500MHz rated probes, assuming they are quality probes.

And is all I was trying to say.

But then you chimed earlier in with all manner of arguing that in no way whatsoever nullified the truthfulness and accuracy of what I said. Actually, you took out the verbal sledgehammer and started talk about my having spread MISINFORMATION.  That was taking it a bit too far.

Again, I am ONLY talking casually about slightly better probes in light of a scope BW upgrade.  I am not teaching a master class on the topic, nor do I feel such a master class is really necessary.

On some level I'm quite sorry I said anything at all about wanting better probes (in terms of their MHz rating) because my comment directly led to this back-and-forth that does not directly pertain to the thread topic of the Siglent 2000X Plus series scopes.

https://youtu.be/7-Yr1nQ3dFI