Author Topic: Siglent SDS2000X Plus  (Read 982420 times)

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Offline kcbrown

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #3675 on: September 11, 2022, 08:11:47 pm »
Fast, efficient UIs are something that the computing field at large has known how to implement for decades now.  Scopes today are executing on hardware that is equivalent in speed to state-of-the-art computers of perhaps a decade ago, if not less.  So it's not like the necessary horsepower isn't there.

All true but one cannot forget that scopes are realtime devices that have timing constraints all around.

So, it's not only a matter of doing all things a lot faster. It's all about fulfilling the preemptive multitasking within a certain timeframe, be it at 1 MHz or 1 THz.

And that would matter if the realtime nature of the scope needed to be maintained as the controls are manipulated.

But it doesn't.  When you manipulate the controls of the Siglent, it throws away the history.  This is because the capture parameters are being changed.  As such, the realtime characteristics no longer need to be maintained.  In fact, some scopes stop all processing altogether while it handles the UI, precisely because their manufacturers recognize that manipulation of the UI means that the user wants to change something, which means that the realtime processing is no longer relevant.

Furthermore, what we're talking about here is a tiny amount of processing, namely that which is sufficient to see and record the control changes.  Nothing more.  Remember that the scope executes billions of instructions per second per core, and the number of instructions necessary to record the control changes is in the thousands of instructions range, which means that the amount of wall clock time that should be necessary for this operation should be in the microseconds range (at most!  In reality, a properly optimized control recording mechanism would be hundreds of instructions long, not thousands).

The problem here isn't that the scope's display isn't keeping up with the controls, it's that it's dropping control events on the floor.

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Assigning a high priority to the manual encoder just so that it doesn't loose a click may be a nightmare when we have tens/hundreds of other more important tasks.

The user is making changes on the scope.  What in the world is more important than recognizing and responding to those changes?

In fact, nothing prevents the manufacturer from stating up front that if the user wants the scope to faithfully and reliably perform captures and analysis of the captures, then he must refrain from manipulating the controls.  Given the fact that, firstly, the amount of processing required to capture and record the control input events is comparatively tiny and, secondly, the trigger re-arm time is itself present and variable, I see no justification for insisting that the scope drop control events on the floor even if the processing wasn't going to be thrown away anyway.


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Of course we can buffer the encoder BUT, in my book, I also don't like to see all the buffered movements appear in rapid sequence just because they had been accumulating in the buffer, and now they got their turn.

The proper approach to processing of buffered movements is to consolidate them and to make the appropriate changes after consolidation.  End result: multiple "clicks" of the encoder, but one actual change to the scope.  For instance, if it buffered 3 "clicks" of the timebase, it would immediately make a 10x change to the timebase.


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Since I had no way of knowing how the buffering was working, the most probable thing that would happen is that I would over turn the encoder just because I didn't have any type of visual feedback.

But you have tactile feedback.  That's the whole point of the detents!


Quote
Providing a lossy feedback, where we loose some clicks, is sometimes the best compromise between the gamers that became TEA and the retirees who have all the time in the world to rotate an encoder at 1-click/sec.

I don't see how.  From the user's standpoint, dropping events on the floor doesn't gain you any advantages and makes the response of the scope unpredictable.  A piece of equipment that's unpredictable in how it responds is a piece of equipment that you have to pay an inordinate amount of attention to when manipulating it.  If you don't believe me, try typing on something that randomly drops your keypresses.  I guarantee you'll find it a frustrating experience.

In fact, Siglent's very own implementation already negates your entire argument.  It does not drop mouse movement events on the floor.  The mouse pointer can sometimes be seen to be updated less often when there's a lot going on (e.g., the FFT is going), but that movement still faithfully tracks your mouse movement itself.   This proves once and for all that the scope has the capability of buffering control events properly.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2022, 07:04:52 pm by kcbrown »
 

Offline kcbrown

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #3676 on: September 11, 2022, 08:15:52 pm »
I have no idea how it behaves on SDS2000X+ because I don't have one.

Sounds like they got the UI flow right on the 6000 and the 2000X HD.


Quote
But I can tell you those two things you mention are not necessarily connected. On my SDS6000 and SDS2000 X HD it works same as keyboard on your PC: it will capture knob clicks even if it doesn't update screen immediately. Actually, if you start moving knobs too fast it will stop screen updates and wait for you to stop moving target and decide what do you want  before it starts updating scope settings and screen. What is practical purpose for a scope to change timebase 72 times a second while you're twiddling the knob frantically...?  Any intermediate acquisitions are null and void, and user obviously doesn't want them...

This is exactly how it should work.  It doesn't on the 2000X+, but that's on the version of the firmware that I'm on, which is not the latest.

So I'm very interested in knowing if, in the latest firmware, Siglent changed the 2000X+ behavior to match what you're seeing in the 6000 and the 2000X HD.


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In a nutshell, if I change timebase 5 steps very quickly (that is how much I can turn quickly and still know what it was, i can hear quintuples, musically) scope will pause for few 100 of ms and then it goes there. Nothing gets lost. intermediate steps (2,3 and for 4) are not being used. Vertical control too..

I'm also curious how people can turn buttons at 240 RPM equivalent speed and be certain that it was exactly 11 steps..

Funny number from a Bourns good quality equivalent encoder... MAX rotation speed 60 RPM........ ^-^
Up to that max speed they guarantee bounce time 3-4ms.. That is sloow rotation, one rotation per second.

60 RPM is one rotation per second, which is 20 clicks per second, an order of magnitude faster than the 2 clicks per second I noted and which you responded to.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2022, 08:20:55 pm by kcbrown »
 
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Online Martin72

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #3677 on: September 11, 2022, 09:19:59 pm »
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So I'm very interested in knowing if, in the latest firmware, Siglent changed the 2000X+ behavior to match what you're seeing in the 6000 and the 2000X HD.

Try the new firmware then you´ll know it. ;)
Me I´ve decided to "sacrifice" one our three scopes for installing the latest fw next week.

Quote
Sounds like they got the UI flow right on the 6000 and the 2000X HD.

The first thing I´ve noticed on my 2000X HD were the encoders, the "look and feel" of them is remarkable more "pro" than on the X+.
But that was to be expected by a scope which costs more than double.
Maybe they did some finetuning in the UI too according to the different encoders, I don´t know.
Apart from this, the UI is not very similar to the X+, it´s identical.
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Offline kcbrown

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #3678 on: September 11, 2022, 09:34:03 pm »
Quote
So I'm very interested in knowing if, in the latest firmware, Siglent changed the 2000X+ behavior to match what you're seeing in the 6000 and the 2000X HD.

Try the new firmware then you´ll know it. ;)

If it weren't for the fact that once I upgrade to this new version of the firmware, I can't go back, I would.

But Siglent has, as I understand it, prevented installation of older versions of the firmware with the latest couple of updates.


Quote
Me I´ve decided to "sacrifice" one our three scopes for installing the latest fw next week.

Another reason I'm at least delaying installation of the new firmware is that I have no idea how stable it is, what issues it has, etc.  Again, if I could downgrade back to the version I'm currently on, none of this would be an issue.


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The first thing I´ve noticed on my 2000X HD were the encoders, the "look and feel" of them is remarkable more "pro" than on the X+.
But that was to be expected by a scope which costs more than double.

I wonder how their feel compares with the Bourns encoders I'm now using in my scope.

Also, as I understand it, all the encoders on the 6000, and perhaps even the 2000X HD, are detented.  That was absolutely the right choice on their part IMO, because it makes precise settings much easier.


Quote
Maybe they did some finetuning in the UI too according to the different encoders, I don´t know.
Apart from this, the UI is not very similar to the X+, it´s identical.

That's what I'd expect and hope for.  So it gives me hope that maybe the latest firmware update has changed the input processing to properly buffer control events.
 

Offline tv84

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #3679 on: September 11, 2022, 09:37:06 pm »
The user is making changes on the scope.  What in the world is more important than recognizing and responding to those changes?

Processing its input channels...  ::)  A scope is not a gaming pad.

But, no problem, I'll buffer further comments. :)
 

Online Martin72

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #3680 on: September 11, 2022, 09:50:56 pm »
Quote
Also, as I understand it, all the encoders on the 6000, and perhaps even the 2000X HD, are detented.

Yes, all encoders including the ones for position, do have a "fine-clicking"... :D

Quote
But Siglent has, as I understand it, prevented installation of older versions of the firmware with the latest couple of updates

Yap, first it cames up with the firmware you don´t need to install when you got an older version of the scope.
The last two firmwares before the actual one was only for the "newer" hardware useful, afaik.
The actual is now for all hardware versions.
If there is really a no turn back, only the cracks here would know.  ;)

Quote
That's what I'd expect and hope for.

When I understand the beta-testers here correctly, the 2000X+, 5000, 6000A, 2000X HD, are sharing the same UI.
When a problem is detected and fixed, all versions will be affected when it will be needed.
Also what feature enhancements concerns, but this depends on the capability of the hardware.
Probe check for example, first on my HD (and 6000?), now also on the 5000 and, with the latest firmware, on the 2000Xplus.


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Online 2N3055

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #3681 on: September 11, 2022, 10:10:01 pm »
...

60 RPM is one rotation per second, which is 20 clicks per second, an order of magnitude faster than the 2 clicks per second I noted and which you responded to.

Yeah, I saw that wrong... Sorry for that... 2 clicks per second is not very fast.. You are right.
I must have confused your post with somebody else... There a pages and pages..
 
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Offline kcbrown

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #3682 on: September 11, 2022, 11:15:41 pm »
The user is making changes on the scope.  What in the world is more important than recognizing and responding to those changes?

Processing its input channels...  ::)  A scope is not a gaming pad.

But the user is making changes to the scope's configuration, which generally affects the input channel processing.

In what way is processing the input channels more important than processing the changes the user is making to the input channel processing?


Here's the deal: the scope is built for the user, not the other way around.  The user purchased the scope to do things for him, after all.  As such, it clearly follows that the scope should be doing what the user commands when the user commands it, to the maximum degree possible.  After all, if the user wishes the scope to continue processing the channels in their current configuration, he will simply refrain from making changes to them.


Quote
But, no problem, I'll buffer further comments. :)

:D
 

Offline blurpy

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #3683 on: September 12, 2022, 06:00:03 pm »
Quote
But Siglent has, as I understand it, prevented installation of older versions of the firmware with the latest couple of updates

Yap, first it cames up with the firmware you don´t need to install when you got an older version of the scope.
The last two firmwares before the actual one was only for the "newer" hardware useful, afaik.
The actual is now for all hardware versions.
If there is really a no turn back, only the cracks here would know.  ;)
There is a file in the firmware directory that specifies its version, and looks like the update procedure compares against 1.3.9R10.
So perhaps not impossible to downgrade to an old version by faking the version number. Don't know how safe it would be though. Definitely not safe for new units.
 

Offline kcbrown

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #3684 on: September 12, 2022, 07:23:33 pm »
Me I´ve decided to "sacrifice" one our three scopes for installing the latest fw next week.

If you wouldn't mind performing an experiment once you've done the upgrade, it would be very helpful.

Feed the scope a 10 MHz waveform.  Set your timebase to 20 ns/div.  Set up FFT against the channel with 32k points and a Hanning window, split display, in normal mode.

Now turn the timebase knob 2 or 3 clicks to the left in fairly quick succession (say, within a quarter second).

With the FFT on like that, if it doesn't buffer the clicks, then it'll change the timebase by only 1 click and will drop the rest (this is what it does on my scope, at any rate).  If it does buffer the clicks then it'll change the timebase by however many clicks you moved the encoder by.

You can experiment with turning the timebase knob with that setup.  If it's buffering the encoder events then it should reliably change the timebase, such that if you move the encoder by some number of clicks to the left, moving it by that number of clicks to the right at a slow speed will reliably restore the timebase to its original value.
 

Online Martin72

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #3685 on: September 13, 2022, 06:41:17 pm »
Hi,

did the upgrade on one of the scopes.
Made the suggested setup, move the timebase.
In "normal speed" (say 0.5..1s/click), with every "click" timebase will be changed, e.g. 50ns/100ns/200ns.
Doing this "faster" it changes one time, e.g. from 20 to 50ns inbetween 3 clicks.
For me it´s normal behaviour which it did also before the upgrade.
Can test the same on unlikely more expensive lecroy scopes and/or my 2K HD, but I bet it won´t be different.
OK, maybe not - I didn´t made any "highspeed" tests before, there was no need for.

Martin
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Siglent SDS800X HD Deep Review
 
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Offline maxspb69

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #3686 on: September 13, 2022, 06:54:44 pm »
Can test the same on unlikely more expensive lecroy scopes and/or my 2K HD, but I bet it won´t be different.

There is reason to test this on Keysight and  R&S scopes. The difference will be huge! Of course, not in favor of Siglent.


In fact, I think the priorities are simply wrong: the user interface should have the highest priority over all other processes. If the user intervenes in the device operation, then his intervention is the most important thing!
« Last Edit: September 13, 2022, 06:58:39 pm by maxspb69 »
 

Offline tomud

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #3687 on: September 13, 2022, 06:58:57 pm »
Can test the same on unlikely more expensive lecroy scopes and/or my 2K HD, but I bet it won´t be different.

There is reason to test this on Keysight and  R&S scopes. The difference will be huge! Of course, not in favor of Siglent.

This limitation has its plus, you don't need to target exactly one click of the encoder to go one range higher/lower. I am afraid that the exact conversion of one click to the time base change would be downright problematic and would make operation very difficult.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2022, 07:01:52 pm by tomud »
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Online Martin72

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #3688 on: September 13, 2022, 07:01:54 pm »
Quote
The difference will be huge!

But for what was it good for except reducing the lifetime of the encoder...
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Siglent SDS800X HD Deep Review
 

Offline maxspb69

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #3689 on: September 13, 2022, 07:07:36 pm »
It makes no difference to the encoder whether you make 10 clicks per second or the same 10 clicks in 5 seconds.
This is just annoying when you need to quickly change the timebase or gain by a large amount. Encoders have to be turned slowly, the device does not have time to respond :(
 

Offline tomud

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #3690 on: September 13, 2022, 07:19:09 pm »
It makes no difference to the encoder whether you make 10 clicks per second or the same 10 clicks in 5 seconds.
This is just annoying when you need to quickly change the timebase or gain by a large amount. Encoders have to be turned slowly, the device does not have time to respond :(

I never really have to jump from end to end quickly, changing the time base. Anyway, instead of 1400 euros on Siglent, you can spend 30000 euros on R&S and perhaps the problems will disappear. Sorry, but I don't understand a bit of people who buy cheap equipment and want to compare it with equipment 30 times more expensive. I have an Agilent DSOX 3054A at home, which costs a lot more and somehow I don't see any major differences in handling with the Siglent. In addition, I'm going to buy the SDS2000 HD version... ...I must be a bit weird that I want to spend so much money on a lousy Siglent :palm:
« Last Edit: September 13, 2022, 07:29:10 pm by tomud »
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Offline maxspb69

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #3691 on: September 13, 2022, 07:33:32 pm »
For some reason, many people believe that if they do not need something - no one needs it.  :(
I have two scopes in my home lab: RTB2000 and SDS2000X+. They are in the same price range. But UI responsiveness  in RTB2000 is impeccable.
Therefore, there is no need to talk about overpaying for convenience.
 

Offline tomud

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #3692 on: September 13, 2022, 07:38:08 pm »
For some reason, many people believe that if they do not need something - no one needs it.  :(
I have two scopes in my home lab: RTB2000 and SDS2000X+. They are in the same price range. But UI responsiveness  in RTB2000 is impeccable.
Therefore, there is no need to talk about overpaying for convenience.

It remains to sell Siglent and buy R&S for this amount and the problems will end, why bother with poor equipment ? After all, no one is forcing anyone to buy this company's equipment if it is so bad... If some equipment does not suit me, I give it to the company where I bought it and I have the problem solved...

« Last Edit: September 13, 2022, 07:49:53 pm by tomud »
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Online Martin72

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #3693 on: September 13, 2022, 07:50:03 pm »
In addition, I'm going to buy the SDS2000 HD version... ...I must be a bit weird that I want to spend so much money on a lousy Siglent :palm:

I feel with you, since june I got this lousy thing... 8)
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Online 2N3055

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #3694 on: September 13, 2022, 07:57:35 pm »
For some reason, many people believe that if they do not need something - no one needs it.  :(
I have two scopes in my home lab: RTB2000 and SDS2000X+. They are in the same price range. But UI responsiveness  in RTB2000 is impeccable.
Therefore, there is no need to talk about overpaying for convenience.

There is quite a lot of price difference between these two scopes.  If you buy SDS200X+ and logic probe and license, you are still under 2000€ and have basic decode protocols included. Basic RTB2000 is 70 MHz, and doesn't even have segmented memory enabled or even basic protocols. Equivalent to that Siglent would be RTB2K-104M + RTB-PK1 Option bundle and that combined is 3900+1500€. That price is so stupid that it pays to buy full package for 4200€.

 

Offline balnazzar

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #3695 on: September 13, 2022, 08:37:55 pm »
For some reason, many people believe that if they do not need something - no one needs it.  :(
I have two scopes in my home lab: RTB2000 and SDS2000X+. They are in the same price range. But UI responsiveness  in RTB2000 is impeccable.
Therefore, there is no need to talk about overpaying for convenience.

They are not in the same price range. For ~1.5K you'll get the R&S with two channels.
 

Offline tautechTopic starter

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #3696 on: September 13, 2022, 08:51:26 pm »
In addition, I'm going to buy the SDS2000 HD version... ...I must be a bit weird that I want to spend so much money on a lousy Siglent :palm:

I feel with you, since june I got this lousy thing... 8)
:-DD
Thank you Martin, I needed a good laugh.  8)
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Offline kcbrown

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #3697 on: September 13, 2022, 11:50:18 pm »
Hi,

did the upgrade on one of the scopes.
Made the suggested setup, move the timebase.
In "normal speed" (say 0.5..1s/click), with every "click" timebase will be changed, e.g. 50ns/100ns/200ns.
Doing this "faster" it changes one time, e.g. from 20 to 50ns inbetween 3 clicks.
For me it´s normal behaviour which it did also before the upgrade.

Yeah, it's the same behavior as before.  What it proves is that the scope isn't buffering the control events, and this hasn't changed with the firmware update.

It's not the end of the world.  If you really need to make a significant change to the timebase with the FFT on, you can either move the encoder slowly or you can turn the math channel off, then change the timebase, and then turn the math channel back on again.  Without the FFT going, the controls are significantly more responsive (though not perfect).

You can also use the mouse or touchscreen and directly manipulate the timebase that way (click on the timebase rectangle at the bottom).


Quote
Can test the same on unlikely more expensive lecroy scopes and/or my 2K HD, but I bet it won´t be different.

There was a claim that the 2000X HD buffered the control inputs.  So please do perform this same test on those scopes.  I think it'll be interesting to see the results, at any rate.


Quote
OK, maybe not - I didn´t made any "highspeed" tests before, there was no need for.

Yeah, there's no need for it, save perhaps for satisfying curiosity.  But if you don't mind doing it, I'd be very interested in learning the results.

« Last Edit: September 13, 2022, 11:57:26 pm by kcbrown »
 
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Offline umgfoin

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #3698 on: September 14, 2022, 06:28:40 am »
Not talking about telnet btw, but the fact that running a script during boot is now disabled.
Good morning,
the good news:
- Downgrade from V1.5.2R1 to V1.3.9R12 possible (atleast on "old" hw-revisions - I didn't test others), so try without regret. ;-)
- Beyond UART-shell a reversible root-door is still available on 1.5.2R1 (and can substitute the removed siglent_device_startup-mechanism)

Code: [Select]
/tmp # uname -a
Linux (none) 3.19.0-01-svn165603 #192 SMP PREEMPT Tue Aug 6 23:16:29 CST 2019 armv7l GNU/Linux

/tmp # cat identification.xml
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<LXIDevice xmlns="http://www.lxistandard.org/InstrumentIdentification/1.0" xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" xsi:schemaLocation="error">
   <Manufacturer>SIGLENT TECHNOLOGIES</Manufacturer>
   <Model>SDS2104X Plus</Model>
   <SerialNumber>SDSxxxxxxxxxx</SerialNumber>
   <FirmwareRevision>5.0.1.5.2R1</FirmwareRevision>
   <ManufacturerDescription>SDSxxxxxxxxxx</ManufacturerDescription>
   <HomepageURL>http://www.Siglent.com</HomepageURL>
   <DriverURL>http://www.Siglent.com</DriverURL>
   <UserDescription>SIGLENT TECHNOLOGIES SMU</UserDescription>
   <IdentificationURL>http://192.168.1.100/lxi/identification</IdentificationURL>
   <Interface xsi:type="NetworkInformation" InterfaceType="LXI" IPType="IPv4" InterfaceName="et0">
       <InstrumentAddressString>TCPIP::192.168.1.100::inst0::INSTR</InstrumentAddressString>
       <InstrumentAddressString>TCPIP::192.168.1.100::inst0::SOCKET</InstrumentAddressString>
       <Hostname>error</Hostname>
       <IPAddress>192.168.1.100</IPAddress>
       <SubnetMask>255.255.255.0</SubnetMask>
       <MACAddress>xx:xx:xx:xx:xx:xx</MACAddress>
       <Gateway>192.168.1.254</Gateway>
       <DHCPEnabled>true</DHCPEnabled>
       <AutoIPEnabled>true</AutoIPEnabled>
   </Interface>
   <IVISoftwareModuleName>SDS2xxxxxxxxxx</IVISoftwareModuleName>
   <LXIVersion>1.5 LXI Device Specification 2016</LXIVersion>
</LXIDevice>
/tmp #

++umgfoin.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2022, 02:12:26 pm by umgfoin »
SDS2104X Plus
SW: 5.0.0.1.6.2R5, Uboot: 5.0, FPGA: 2024-01-29
CPLD: 03, HW: 02-04
 
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Offline tautechTopic starter

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  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. Siglent Distributor NZ.
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: Siglent SDS2000X Plus
« Reply #3699 on: September 15, 2022, 08:47:18 am »
Good and bad news.
Bad for those that purchased SDS2000X Plus before Sept 1 and good news the MSO option of HW and SW license and FG license are bundled again with the purchase of a new scope for the amazing low price of $ 219 !

Snap this up quick as the promotion expires 31 Dec.
https://int.siglent.com/info/detail-52.html

Check if your region, US or EU has this offer.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2022, 08:52:01 am by tautech »
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Some stuff seen @ Siglent HQ cannot be shared.
 


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