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If you order a new 200MPH Porsche 911 Twin Turbo you expect the tires to be better rated than 100MPH!! The factory supplies tires that are rated for 200MPH, if you want to change them you certainly can, but they are rated for 200MPH, and you paid for those 200MPH tires
Best,
You chose the wrong example.
If you want to talk about precision on numbers, you must avoid talking about a brand that belongs to the Volkwagen group
Not the wrong example, Porsche just belongs to a larger group but doesn't convey they are performing or even held to the Volkswagen metrics which I do consider questionable, same goes for Audi. The Porsche 911 is recognized worldwide as the benchmark for all sports cars, why we have two (BTW the red 911 is a 993 model which is the last of the air cooled 911s, and worth more today than when purchased new in 1996!!)
LeCroy belongs to Teledyne, but they still perform to their own established metrics!! I mean what does Teledyne know about oscilloscopes??
Best,
Cayenne diesel?
But you're right, the Beetle is a fast car even if it has the engine in the wrong place
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Regardless of wrong or right cheapest probes delivered, it´s a strange policy from siglent, giving the cheapest probes they can get to this not-so-cheap-anymore-scope.
I would expect that for their very low price models, not for this one.
When rigol could offer 350Mhz probes even with their 70Mhz model of the 5000 series, which costs nearly 500 bucks less...
When Lecroy doesn´t have a problem to pack their 350Mhz scope with 4 500Mhz probes, where each of them will costs extremely when buying separately..
...It tells me, that probes itselfs will cost not much for rigol or lecroy.
But for siglent ?
What will happen, when I´m upgrading the bandwith official ?
Do I get new probes with the license key too ?
I think not..
Well...
Here is @Performa01 made test result.. if bit stretch things... what is probe freq what Siglent offer, even with 70MHz model (examaple with SDS2074XPlus). Do not read probe text.. it do not matter. Reality matters.
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Here is @Performa01 made test result.. if bit stretch things... what is probe freq what Siglent offer, even with 70MHz model (examaple with SDS2074XPlus). Do not read probe text.. it do not matter. Reality matters.
What reality? I looked up the thread; Performa01's measurements of the 100MHz and 200MHz Siglent probes show identical results even though they have different specifications. Something must be wrong. I already noted in that thread that probes should be measured using a source impedance of 25 Ohm. Performa01 never acknowledged that he did that. Another problem is that he used a 200MHz oscilloscope. The total risetime of the system is roughly sqrt (rise_time_probe^2 + rise_time_scope ^2) (See Keysight appnote 5988-8008EN). In the end the difference between a 100MHz and 200MHz probe is much smaller than you expect when you use a 200MHz oscilloscope because the risetime (bandwidth) of the oscilloscope influences the bandwidth as well. The difference between using a 100MHz probe versus a 200MHz probe results in a 90 MHz and a 140MHz bandwidth (50MHz difference instead of the expected 100MHz!). A much better measurement approach would be to use a dedicated probe testing rig with a high impedance, high bandwidth buffer amplifier which drives a 50 Ohm >1GHz bandwidth oscilloscope input. This way you reduce the effects of the oscilloscope.
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Regardless of wrong or right cheapest probes delivered, it´s a strange policy from siglent,
It's not policy but nonadherence to the official datasheet.
Let me say this again....anyone that receives PP510 probes with a new SDS2104X Plus instead of the specified PP215 probes contact your supplier to have them replaced.
^^^ What tautech said. ^^^
tequipment.net indicated they were recently notified by the mfr. that incorrect probes were included with the Plus model of this scope and that Siglent would be replacing these directly (with PP215's). tequipment is sending Siglent a list of affected customers today and also gave me the phone number for Siglent (877 515-5551) in case I wanted to contact them myself. -
Just for comparsion a response plot on a 0 to 500 Mhz scale:
All four PP215 probes delivered with SDS2204X+ (REFA..REFD).
Measured on 25 \$\Omega\$source impedance with Tip/BNC adapter, attenuation 10x.
For reference (F1) a 50cm H155 coax cable.
Not that bad i think, -3dB (-2dB relative to coax) just a bit below 500Mhz. The uniformity is quite impressive.
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Here is @Performa01 made test result.. if bit stretch things... what is probe freq what Siglent offer, even with 70MHz model (examaple with SDS2074XPlus). Do not read probe text.. it do not matter. Reality matters.
What reality? I looked up the thread; Performa01's measurements of the 100MHz and 200MHz Siglent probes show identical results even though they have different specifications.
Not identical. Close, but not identical. Look especially at the lower end of the frequency range, and you'll see the two deviating from each other by about 1 dB. Maybe that's close enough to be regarded as "identical"...
Honestly, why should any of this be a surprise? You're likely to get better returns from mass manufacturing if you make both probes using the same materials and techniques, and then separate them on the basis of the result of quality checks, than by manufacturing them using different materials and/or techniques.
Now, it may be that a different approach to testing will show greater differences than what were found, but that the two perform very similarly shouldn't be much of a surprise given the cost advantages of making both of them on the same assembly line and with the same parts.
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And EU supply of SDS2104X Plus is affected too.Regardless of wrong or right cheapest probes delivered, it´s a strange policy from siglent,
It's not policy but nonadherence to the official datasheet.
Let me say this again....anyone that receives PP510 probes with a new SDS2104X Plus instead of the specified PP215 probes contact your supplier to have them replaced.
^^^ What tautech said. ^^^
tequipment.net indicated they were recently notified by the mfr. that incorrect probes were included with the Plus model of this scope and that Siglent would be replacing these directly (with PP215's). tequipment is sending Siglent a list of affected customers today and also gave me the phone number for Siglent (877 515-5551) in case I wanted to contact them myself.
https://www.siglenteu.com/contact-us/ -
That 1dB difference can be a measurement error as well. It definitely needs closer inspection.Here is @Performa01 made test result.. if bit stretch things... what is probe freq what Siglent offer, even with 70MHz model (examaple with SDS2074XPlus). Do not read probe text.. it do not matter. Reality matters.
What reality? I looked up the thread; Performa01's measurements of the 100MHz and 200MHz Siglent probes show identical results even though they have different specifications.
Not identical. Close, but not identical. Look especially at the lower end of the frequency range, and you'll see the two deviating from each other by about 1 dB. Maybe that's close enough to be regarded as "identical"...QuoteHonestly, why should any of this be a surprise? You're likely to get better returns from mass manufacturing if you make both probes using the same materials and techniques, and then separate them on the basis of the result of quality checks, than by manufacturing them using different materials and/or techniques.
For such a low cost item post-production testing costs more than the production itself costs. And on top of that the manufacturer doesn't know whether they produce enough of either quality to fullfil demand. IMHO stories about mass-produced products being binned based on specs are grossly exaggerated (IOW: urban myth).
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New owner of a SDS2104X+ here. I also received 4x PP510 probes, going to e-mail the seller now. [...]
They initially replied that Siglent may have changed the shipping contents without updating their datasheets and that they will contact them for further information. But: I just received the response that my 4x PP510 will be exchanged for PP215s.
I'm still curious about the actual difference they will make, I sadly don't have a good enough source available to test with. -
Me, I´ve bought 4pcs used but in good conditions Lecroy 350Mhz probes with autosensing, all 4 for under 100 bucks and that was it.
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Here is @Performa01 made test result.. if bit stretch things... what is probe freq what Siglent offer, even with 70MHz model (examaple with SDS2074XPlus). Do not read probe text.. it do not matter. Reality matters.
What reality? I looked up the thread; Performa01's measurements of the 100MHz and 200MHz Siglent probes show identical results even though they have different specifications. Something must be wrong. I already noted in that thread that probes should be measured using a source impedance of 25 Ohm. Performa01 never acknowledged that he did that. Another problem is that he used a 200MHz oscilloscope. The total risetime of the system is roughly sqrt (rise_time_probe^2 + rise_time_scope ^2) (See Keysight appnote 5988-8008EN). In the end the difference between a 100MHz and 200MHz probe is much smaller than you expect when you use a 200MHz oscilloscope because the risetime (bandwidth) of the oscilloscope influences the bandwidth as well. The difference between using a 100MHz probe versus a 200MHz probe results in a 90 MHz and a 140MHz bandwidth (50MHz difference instead of the expected 100MHz!). A much better measurement approach would be to use a dedicated probe testing rig with a high impedance, high bandwidth buffer amplifier which drives a 50 Ohm >1GHz bandwidth oscilloscope input. This way you reduce the effects of the oscilloscope.
Of course BUT... you totally disconnect my comment from @Martin72 comment.
Due to this disconnect you loose whole context. As you can see he talk what Rigol offer.... and I answer something like... look what freq response Siglent offer.
In practice Siglent offer over 300MHz probe with this scope, even it is not printed on probe. But in practice PP215 is far over 200MHz probe... just if want, it do not violate anything if print 350MHz on this probe surface instead of 200 MHz, (based to these tested individual probes).
My context, what you dismiss, was not at all compare PP215 and PP510 f resp.. But somehow related to what other brand, Rigol, offer. Rigol offer probe where is printed 350MHz. I have not seen real compare between it and Siglent PP510 or PP215. Text printed on probe do not so much matter. Reality matters..
With these cheap probes can test when scope arrive that it works and do some first training with it and perhaps suitable random hobby use.. For serious type of use, professional everyday work... forget these probes and just buy good probes and many different probes. Many times it is so that investment to good set of good high grade probes cost well over oscilloscope price.
-----------Regardless of wrong or right cheapest probes delivered, it´s a strange policy from siglent, giving the cheapest probes they can get to this not-so-cheap-anymore-scope.
I would expect that for their very low price models, not for this one.
When rigol could offer 350Mhz probes even with their 70Mhz model of the 5000 series, which costs nearly 500 bucks less...
When Lecroy doesn´t have a problem to pack their 350Mhz scope with 4 500Mhz probes, where each of them will costs extremely when buying separately..
...It tells me, that probes itselfs will cost not much for rigol or lecroy.
But for siglent ?
What will happen, when I´m upgrading the bandwith official ?
Do I get new probes with the license key too ?
I think not..
Well...
Here is @Performa01 made test result.. if bit stretch things... what is probe freq what Siglent offer, even with 70MHz model (examaple with SDS2074XPlus). Do not read probe text.. it do not matter. Reality matters.
This and other some tests show that perhaps we can print on PP215 "350 MHz" and after this printing Siglent offer nearly same as Rigol. Oh but there is still not 1x 10x detect. One solution is remove whole 1x 10x select. Glue it permanently to 10x position and shring tube over it. Now it is 10x 350MHz probe... well if you like you can also print 400MHz over it... or what ever between 1 to under 500MHz.
Problem is now just what is printed on probe.
Many users still do not have skills to right use probe even over 50MHz circuits or do not know how probing affect DUT.
It need enough knowledge and experience. Lot of peoples do not have. Probing is thing what really need more knowledge than what is tip and what is GND. Perhaps whole probing is so wide and important question that oscilloscope school is just playing... but when we go to probing school... it is hardcore serious thing. Really.
Then also the probes are a consumable item and yet need to be purchased and renewed when stepped on or the cord is damaged in the rush of work. Just like shoes and socks are worn when they are worn, and different for different uses. 1 model of universal probe in use is about the same as trying to make a house with a one hammer. -
Here compared PP215 and PP510 from 1MHz to 500MHz
Source impedance 25ohm as standard for passive probes response testing.
Just for reference other image between 80cm RG316 and PP215
Naturally there is generator flatness included and RG316 + connectors + impedance mismatch error included. This give only rough direction where we are with these probes.
Everyone who use probes, of course understand all errors what happen when use probes. When you connect probe to near DC or LF it is extremely different situation when you connect probe to HF circuit, and here I mean HF including also LF signals if there is HF including edges.
When you connect probe to DUT it change DUT ! If you connect probe to ideal source what do not exist in this world but in students story books, even then you have all more or less wrong due to probe itself. If user do not understand these things and just blind believe scope display as fact book, well even some professionals are many times fooled.
Probing is MUCH more difficult that learning to use oscilloscope itself and all features. When you are probing HF mixed kind of complex signals it can say that it is nearly like state of art to get some very trusted results. It need something more than good oscilloscope and good probe... some do miracles with simple scopes and tools. Same effect can see in photographs. Many have purchased "High End" or "State Of Art" expensive camera... but they can not take good photographs. But some who have true skills have take extremely good photographs using nearly like "camera obscura". All is in skills and knowledge and experience. One can measure using one rasor blade and one candle very very small anomalies in telescope mirror and other one need some 5 decades price instrument and result may still be nonsense crap.
Probing school is nice idea... all can use oscilloscope. But who can use probes... well all can connect tip and GND and scope display how your led is blinking. Yes. But when we go to more challenging things, complex signals and want really know what is truth and not only what scope display.. scope display just all crap but it do not tell anything how much it differ from truth and because you do not know truth you may accidentally believe what scope display... the less you know the simpler all things are.
Up to 500MHz roughly inside 3dB
If do corrections even better (Gen flatness, measurement instrument flatness)
Up to 500MHz roughly inside 3dB
If do corrections even better (Gen flatness,measurement instrument flatness)
RG316 is for reference for estimate corrections because we know roughly this cable attenuation vs freq.
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What probes are included from the factory with this machine?
From the datasheet P3:- SDS2104X+: 4x PP215 - Correct?
- SDS2204X+: 4x PP430 ?
- SDS2354X+: 4x PP430 ?
Probe (standard)
SDS2354X Plus
SP2035A, 350 MHz, 1 probe supplied for each channel
SDS2204X Plus, SDS2104X Plus
PP215, 200 MHz, 1 probe supplied for each channel
----<snip>----
Oddly enough I just bought a SDS2204X Plus and it came with 4x SP2035, 350 MHz probes in the box.
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But you're right, the Beetle is a fast car even if it has the engine in the wrong place
The Porsche 911 is like a fast Volkswagen Beetle like a Ferrari is a fast Fiat
BTW the 911 engine has been in the right place behind the driver since it's developement in 1963
Best, -
Oddly enough I just bought a SDS2204X Plus and it came with 4x SP2035, 350 MHz probes in the box.
Nice, those are ~$160 probes
Best, -
Yay!!! The EEVBlog and the Forum are back online. Exactly this week when I’m supposed to pick up my new, shiny and colourful SDS2104X Plus scope.
Welcome back, we missed ya!
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Heads up guys.
The promotion including free options and/or price reductions has ended.
Hopefully some dealers will have some stock remaining or stock on order still offering the promotion. -
Batronix has extended the offer to the 30th of April:
https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS2104X-plus.html
Also note that you'll have to wait a little to get it: in 21-40 days in stock.
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Just a few clarifications for the never ending probe topic and especially my tests for the SDS1000X-E.
1. Source impedance
Of course the tests have been performed with 25 ohms source impedance, as explained in reply #59, where I quoted from the original thread where the idea for this test was born (replies #520, 521):
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1434847/#msg1434847
As everyone can see, reply #521 even contains circuit diagrams representing the test setup.
One could also expect that using the wrong source impedance would usually mean just 50 ohms – and using a source impedance higher than 25 ohms would actually lead to worse performance figures.
2. Differences in frequency response between PP510 and PP215 below 100 MHz
This doesn’t exceed 0.66 dB (at 40 MHz) - not very significant for a cheap oscilloscope probe indeed. It might be because of slight differences in the LF-compensation (because of the fiddly trimmer capacitors).
3. Test with a 200 MHz DSO
Of course. The test was about appropriate probes for the SDS1200X-E.
I’ve also tried to explain that a probe has to be matched with the actual input impedance of the DSO in question, which in turn is a lot more complex than just 1 megohm in parallel with a few picofarads. My tests showed that the 300 MHz rated probes for the e.g. previous SDS2000X do not perform well on the SDS1000X-E machines.
For the ones who still like such demonstrations, I’ve posted the frequency response of the PP510 on a 1 GHz SDS5104X, see reply #191 in this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg3290546/#msg3290546
4. No significant difference between 100 and 200 MHz rated probes?
I’ve tried to explain it already in the above posting:Quote… if you build a passive probe properly, with the correct HF compensation for the scope input it's intended to be used with (or adjustable HF compensation like e.g. the TesTec TT-MF312), then you can expect a probe bandwidth of several hundred MHz and you would have to deliberately add internal filtering to limit the bandwidth to e.g. 100 MHz.
In other words: it would take either the intention of a deliberate bandwidth limit or a serious amount of incompetence to design a probe that does not perform up to at least 300 MHz. I also talked about former tests, where a humble 100 MHz Tektronix probe outperformed the 500 MHz Keysight probe on a SDS2304X.
People should understand that probe specifications are only valid in conjunction with the scope they are intended to be used with.
Furthermore, people should understand that the probe together with the scope input is a complex and severely mismatched system from the outset and the frequency response can be anything (and certainly needs not resemble a lowpass behavior).
Finally, it should be clear that specifications just tell you what the manufacturer is willing to guarantee; there is absolutely no implied information what the performance outside the specifications will be.
5. What does all that mean for the SDS2000X plus?
I once measured the frequency response of my old PP215 probes on the SDS2354X plus (with the 500 MHz option). The -3 dB system bandwidth was about 420 MHz. From past experiences, I expect the PP510 to give similar results.
Probing techniques are important and it is indeed rather doubtful that passive “high Z” probes will cut it at high frequencies – at least in cases where the source impedance is considerably higher than 25 ohms. From this point of view it’s hard to understand where all the worries about the probes come from.
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specifications just tell you what the manufacturer is willing to guarantee;
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"I want to return my scope, it doesn´t have the bandwith like the scope my friend got, only 150Mhz instead of 180Mhz and he got the same model !
Sir, you bought a 100Mhz Version..."
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"I want to return my scope, it doesn´t have the bandwith like the scope my friend got, only 150Mhz instead of 180Mhz and he got the same model !
Sir, you bought a 100Mhz Version..."
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SDS2204 scope
Foreword:
you hit print button with USB stick, after 25 measurements wife calls you home for dinner,
next day you dont have the scope, some one else need it, and now you need to write the report,
with the pictures from the usb stick..
or even worse: you are too busy doing something else for a few weeks,
and now you studently need the info from the measurements, forgot to write the report when you made the measurements.
(you are lying if you never experienced any of this)
Question:
how to add user text to the screen ? like real easy ?
so each picture will be easy to identify later ?
other options:
make a paper with all the important technical stuff and simply add the picture number to that sheet,
since the scope do write the filename briefly on the screen.
or
change the name of the channel
or
be sure to set the system time correctly, or at least same as your phone, and take a picture of the relevant hardware setup
and the scope picture at the same time you hit print on scope
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Another option is to have PC with browser connected to it and save screenshots from there directly on a PC
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I didn’t think that I would really miss the ability to place any text labels and draw on the screen, like in RTB2000. It would be great if the Siglent can add text labels anywhere on the screen.