Siglent SDS2000X Plus

[mawyatt]

Not to clutter up the great dialog going on, I agree with 2N3055 assessment of what is being displayed, also good job of explaining 

Best, 

[TK]

The oem probe should behave the same.

As Thomas already mentioned in the video the +/-2ns jitter is normal due to the 500Mhz sampling frequency of the digital acquisition.
And of course you will see this jitter on all analog channels if trigger on a digital channel.

@Thomas
I believe your divider is overcompensated. In the video you got -16ns skew a about 4ns risetime, now at 13ns risetime it is only -8ns skew.
The skew should be independent of risetime at approximatly -4ns. This value is due to the missing coax extension between adapter and pods on the oem probe.
It can be eleminated by deskew setting of digital inputs.

edit:
@tubularnut
Just saw your reply. Seems like you also have -4ns with the oem probe. How long was the coax from tee to C1 input?

There is also jitter among the digital channels, I am not an expert and I assume the digital channel acquisition is serialized, so actual sample rate to determine possible jitter should be 500MSa/s divided by 16 (number of channels) or 50 nanoseconds?  I don't have the scope anymore to test, but it is what I observed once and I tried to compare it to higher end Agilent Logic Analyzers with 2GSa/s or more and still can see the jitter.

As I said, I am not an expert and just curious to see if my assumptions are correct.  I would appreciate any feedback from the gurus on this forum.

[oz2cpu]

good point TK, if I go all digital, turn off analog..
trig on a digital, feed in the same signal to them all 16, i tried that.
And all digitals are +/- 2nS and they all jitter together at that exact time frame, there is nothing in between,
all results can ONLY be on a 2nS line..

[2N3055]

The oem probe should behave the same.

As Thomas already mentioned in the video the +/-2ns jitter is normal due to the 500Mhz sampling frequency of the digital acquisition.
And of course you will see this jitter on all analog channels if trigger on a digital channel.

@Thomas
I believe your divider is overcompensated. In the video you got -16ns skew a about 4ns risetime, now at 13ns risetime it is only -8ns skew.
The skew should be independent of risetime at approximatly -4ns. This value is due to the missing coax extension between adapter and pods on the oem probe.
It can be eleminated by deskew setting of digital inputs.

edit:
@tubularnut
Just saw your reply. Seems like you also have -4ns with the oem probe. How long was the coax from tee to C1 input?

There is also jitter among the digital channels, I am not an expert and I assume the digital channel acquisition is serialized, so actual sample rate to determine possible jitter should be 500MSa/s divided by 16 (number of channels) or 50 nanoseconds?  I don't have the scope anymore to test, but it is what I observed once and I tried to compare it to higher end Agilent Logic Analyzers with 2GSa/s or more and still can see the jitter.

As I said, I am not an expert and just curious to see if my assumptions are correct.  I would appreciate any feedback from the gurus on this forum.

Well, not a guru, by far, but happen to know a bit about it.

@TK, all 16 channels are acquired in parallel. Otherwise it would be 2ns*16=32ns uncertainty (31,25 Msps/sec), any you would be able to see nice staircase in digital channel display.

But, digital channels cannot be all the same, there will be some small differences in level threshold between channels. So if you feed, for instance, slow edge, there will be some observed metastability, right there on the logic level threshold, and some channels could trigger within sample period apart. Put that together with some noise , and it can happen.

To test, it would need clean fast pulse source, with impedance low enough to drive all 16 digital channels capacities in parallel and keep edges still fast enough, let's say less than 5ns risetime 10/90 (so it goes through threshold +- channel detection level spread in less than 1 ns), and then see if there is difference between channels.

[DL2XY]

There is also jitter among the digital channels, I am not an expert and I assume the digital channel acquisition is serialized, so actual sample rate to determine possible jitter should be 500MSa/s divided by 16 (number of channels) or 50 nanoseconds?  I don't have the scope anymore to test, but it is what I observed once and I tried to compare it to higher end Agilent Logic Analyzers with 2GSa/s or more and still can see the jitter.

As I said, I am not an expert and just curious to see if my assumptions are correct.  I would appreciate any feedback from the gurus on this forum.

No, there is no internal jitter, neither in between digital channels nor to analog channels. Its all about differrent clock domains between Scope aquisition and DUT.

Look at this one: Walking bit test pattern from a PSOC3 µC which clock is derived from scope awg: No jitter at all, but granularity of digital channels stays at 2ns.
C1 is the derived clock, each bit schould be 20ns wide. Bit 0,1 and 4 are displayed 2ns shorter, maybe the internal propagation delays of the PSOC are more than 1ns off.

[Analog4]

...No, there is no internal jitter..

Clock and timing jitter always exists, but the magnitude may be small enough to not be relevant for a particular system.

Even the ADC12DJ5200RF is limited by jitter.

[2N3055]

I promised to show example from MSOX3000T from Keysight:



Faster sampling on digital (1.25 GSa/s as opposed to 500MSa/s) but same phenomenon. +-800ps uncertainty interval.

[Michael YYZ]

I’ve spent days reading the 100+ pages of this thread, as well as some other threads, and watched many videos on YouTube. Thanks mainly to the enthusiasm here, on EEVblog, I decided that a Siglent SDS2104X Plus is the oscilloscope that I would like to have.

I noticed that the Siglent models appear virtually identical to the Teledyne LeCroy T3DSO2000A series (whilst other Siglent oscilloscopes appear identical to BK Precision oscilloscopes). What is the relationship between Teledyne LeCroy and Siglent? Are the latter manufacturing the same machines under licence from the former? Since Siglent has a presence in North America, I doubt they just copied the machines they’re making. Also, other than the identical aesthetics and similar specs, is the hardware identical between the two? (One thing I know for sure is that the Teledyne LeCroy models are 2-3x more expensive than the Siglent models.)

On a different note: does anyone have experience purchasing Siglent equipment in Canada? On Siglent’s website I found only two vendors: RCC Electronics in Toronto and Techno-Test in Montréal. Any other suggestions, hints, advice? Thank you!

[tautech]

I noticed that the Siglent models appear virtually identical to the Teledyne LeCroy T3DSO2000A series (whilst other Siglent oscilloscopes appear identical to BK Precision oscilloscopes). What is the relationship between Teledyne LeCroy and Siglent?

Close, they have worked together for close to a decade AFAIK.

BK Precision sell a number of Siglent models rebranded especially for them.
A few others and certainly not an exhaustive list is here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/remember-when-siglents-logo-wasnt-ugly/

[mawyatt]

I promised to show example from MSOX3000T from Keysight:



Faster sampling on digital (1.25 GSa/s as opposed to 500MSa/s) but same phenomenon. +-800ps uncertainty interval.

Think this shows that the digital edge uncertainty is +- 1 sample period of the clock used to sample the digital comparator output, so the faster the sample rate, the lower the uncertainty for fast edge digital waveforms. Also this means that the interface circuitry to the digital comparator should present a fast edge waveform and not limit the slew rate to below what can produce a +-2 sample period uncertainty. In other words maintain digital input waveform edge integrity at the digital decision circuitry, the comparator, to achieve the lowest digital waveform uncertainty!

Best,

[Michael YYZ]

Thank you, tautech! That’s very interesting to know!!!

Hence would it be fair to say that buying a Siglent SDS2000X Plus machine would get us similar features to those of a T3DSO2000A machine, comparable hardware performance and build quality, but at a much cheaper price? If yes, life is beautiful! 

So the BK Precision oscilloscopes are in fact Siglent machines, and not the other way around... Nice!



Quote from: tautech on Today at 18:30:17

>Quote from: Michael YYZ on Today at 18:15:13

I noticed that the Siglent models appear virtually identical to the Teledyne LeCroy T3DSO2000A series (whilst other Siglent oscilloscopes appear identical to BK Precision oscilloscopes).

What is the relationship between Teledyne LeCroy and Siglent?

Close, they have worked together for close to a decade AFAIK.

BK Precision sell a number of Siglent models rebranded especially for them.
A few others and certainly not an exhaustive list is here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/remember-when-siglents-logo-wasnt-ugly/

[tautech]

Thank you, tautech! That’s very interesting to know!!!

Hence would it be fair to say that buying a Siglent SDS2000X Plus machine would get us similar features to those of a T3DSO2000A machine, comparable hardware performance and build quality, but at a much cheaper price?
If yes, life is beautiful! 

So the BK Precision oscilloscopes are in fact Siglent machines, and not the other way around... Nice!

At one time firmware in some Siglent rebrands was better than Siglents but that was many years ago and AFAIK today Siglent releases firmware more frequently than their rebrands do.
Generally Siglent pricing is better than their rebrands as they are the OEM however some parts of the world have rebrand marketing agreements where you can't buy Siglents locally.....USSR I believe is such an area but there are marketing deals all over the place and one is SDS3000 and its later version SDS3000X for which LeCroy have all western marketing rights.


BTW, dive into your profile and turn WYSIWYG to OFF then you get a better reply structure to work with when you Quote someone. 

[Michael YYZ]

Thanks for the feedback about WYSIWYG switch, the quote structure looked really weird. Let’s see now... EDIT: Yay, it works! 

Also, your insight about the maze of all this OEM and equipment rebranding strategy is very interesting. We’re very to have access to Siglent directly, or at least for most of their products.

At one time firmware in some Siglent rebrands was better than Siglents but that was many years ago and AFAIK today Siglent releases firmware more frequently than their rebrands do.
Generally Siglent pricing is better than their rebrands as they are the OEM however some parts of the world have rebrand marketing agreements where you can't buy Siglents locally.....USSR I believe is such an area but there are marketing deals all over the place and one is SDS3000 and its later version SDS3000X for which LeCroy have all western marketing rights.


BTW, dive into your profile and turn WYSIWYG to OFF then you get a better reply structure to work with when you Quote someone. 

[Analog4]

That's amazing the scopes look nearly identical, except the price of the LeCroy is two times higher than the Siglent.

Wonder what the differences are, other than the name & Logo?

LeCroy T3DSO2354A    $6,003.00

Siglent SDS2354X Plus   $2,999.00

[Michael YYZ]

If I understand correctly the responses above, the LeCroy, BKP, etc. units are rebranded OEM Siglents. So virtually similar hardware for all. The main differences would be variations in the firmware, the nameplate and, of course, the price.

That's amazing the scopes look nearly identical, except the price of the LeCroy is two times higher than the Siglent.

Wonder what the differences are, other than the name & Logo?

LeCroy T3DSO2354A    $6,003.00

Siglent SDS2354X Plus   $2,999.00

[tautech]

If I understand correctly the responses above, the LeCroy, BKP, etc. units are rebranded OEM Siglents. So virtually similar hardware for all. The main differences would be variations in the firmware, the nameplate and, of course, the price.

If any at all.
When you know who the OEM is you can check their FW versions against rebranded versions.
https://int.siglent.com/download/firmwares/?ProId=53

[rf-loop]

That's amazing the scopes look nearly identical, except the price of the LeCroy is two times higher than the Siglent.

Wonder what the differences are, other than the name & Logo?

LeCroy T3DSO2354A    $6,003.00

Siglent SDS2354X Plus   $2,999.00

They are same, some times possible that FW update versions are not published just in same time).
Of course when buy LeCroy you buy also LeCroy whole support and you buy Siglent you buy Siglent whole support. For company or institutional buyers this is many times very important thing. Tens of years with good reputation... in one bad case with lack of support may cost many times this price difference.
There is some difference even when Siglent is slowly developing also given support better and better. Road is still hard and full of rocks.. 

Fun think is that just this  LeCroy model in image is named as 500MHz model what Siglent do not have at all.... oh but wait...
Take both data sheets face to face and look.
In data sheet this LeCroy is just same as Siglent SDS2354X Plus with 500MHz upgrade what can use for 2 channel when both ADC work in interleaved mode.
Btw, LeCroy have also mistake in they introduction. They tell BodePlot can up to 500MHz with 500MHz generator.
But, in LeCroy data sheet it is just same limit (due to reasons) max 120MHz.

Also when some (not citizen people) buy from LeCroy perhaps they buy more than just one single scope, perhaps have been LeCroy customer years.. and when they ask final total... it is "perhaps" bit different than MSRP.  There is bit differend deal negotiation if compare to some web shops "supermarket" who sell oscilloscopes etc just like pants, shoes and fishing things.
You click, pay and wait parcel. There do not come experienced engineer(s) to your company for look and design together best solution for your needs... 
do individual hobbyist need these... mostly no. So, pay less and buy original Sig... and ask free support here or if you are enough clever solve your problems alone. Most of problems are between chair and instrument ... least if study this forum. Still of course, without overlooking or forget real problems what also exist.

[Michael YYZ]

One change for sure, to remove the ‘Siglent’ name from the display graphics. 

If I understand correctly the responses above, the LeCroy, BKP, etc. units are rebranded OEM Siglents. So virtually similar hardware for all. The main differences would be variations in the firmware, the nameplate and, of course, the price.

If any at all.
When you know who the OEM is you can check their FW versions against rebranded versions.
https://int.siglent.com/download/firmwares/?ProId=53

[tautech]

One change for sure, to remove the ‘Siglent’ name from the display graphics.

Not for all:
The predecessor to SDS2000X Plus: SDS2000X

[Kostasbuilts]

Hi
From yesterday I am an SDS2104x Plus owner  .  I wonder how I will find the codes to enable the option bundle, according to the siglent promo? I know that is active until 31 Mar 2021.

[profanum429]

Hi
From yesterday I am an SDS2104x Plus owner  .  I wonder how I will find the codes to enable the option bundle, according to the siglent promo? I know that is active until 31 Mar 2021.

My SDS2104X+ also showed up yesterday from TEquipment here in the states; the option bundle promo stuff was already activated on my scope but also in the box with the probes were a bundle of papers with the codes on them too.

[Kostasbuilts]

I have no papers with codes included in the probe box ... but YES!!! the bundle is allready activated. You are right . 
Is this normal?

[tautech]

I have no papers with codes included in the probe box ... but YES!!! the bundle is allready activated. You are right . 
Is this normal?

Yes, units fresh from the factory have the promotional bundle of free options already installed and there is zero accompanying paperwork.

When/if additional options are installed before sale it is the resellers choice if the paperwork accompanies the scope as it's faster to install options from PC via the webrowser where there is less chance of error by using Copy/Paste. 
That way we can save some forest  by not needing to print out the licenses.

[profanum429]

I just replaced my fan today with the Noctua NF-A9 FLX. I mainly did it because the stock fan had an annoying low frequency pulsing noise; it was nice that the Noctua has better stats too. The only 'difficult' part is that the stock fan uses a JST-XH 2 pin connector so you'll either need to get a new housing and two contacts and crimp it onto the Noctua or cut off the stock fan connector and solder it to the Noctua. I ended up just cutting and soldering the connector from the stock fan onto the Noctua. Otherwise it's a simple affair, take the back off, unscrew the stock fan, screw the new fan in, back put back on, done. It works great, it's a little quieter but mainly it's a consistent white noise now, no pulsing sound so I don't mind leaving the scope turned on all day if needed.

Hello there,

forum newbie first time posting 
After spending days of reading through all the SDS2000X Plus related threads on this forum, I got myself an SDS2104X+ as an upgrade to my old Rigol DS2072A. The main reasons for this purchase were the 4 channels and the "LeCroy-like" UI of the Siglent scope.
Having played around with the new scope for quite a while, I am pretty impressed of the functionality you get for the money (not to mention the upgrade capabilities...), so the Rigol went straight into the bay.

New stock SDS2104X Plus SN# range SDS2PDDD4R1*** are somewhat quieter than earlier units and it seems a slower fan has now been fitted.
Earlier Plus units were louder than SDS5000X once their smart fan had kicked back after boot but now they're about equal for fan noise.

My unit's SN is in the range tautech mentioned above but it still has the same fan equipped (ADDA AD0912DS-A70GL). Although it is no comparison to the screaming fan in the Rigol scope, I am thinking about replacing the stock fan with a more silent one (e.g. Noctua NF-A9 FLX), because of some annoying low frequency noise.

Has anyone already replaced the stock fan and can share some experience?
What about the unpopulated 4-pin fan connector?

Thanks a lot!

[oz2cpu]

mine is brand new
serial SDS2PDDC5R....
and i do hear low pitched vibration / interferience from blades ?
it is not loud, and so far it is not ignoring, but a whole day of work, i prefer it to be a bit less

did you take some pictures of your fan mod ?