Siglent SDS2000X Plus

[2N3055]

I tend to disagree. A good, reliable (as in 'works as expected') AWG sets you back several k€ and you'll still be below 30MHz.

Yes, you do tend to disagree...

By the same token, and by same logic, good scope starts at 20000€ and anything else is just toys and cheap crap. 

So we made a leap from a statement that basic internal AWG in a scope is good enough for most uses to statement that you need to pay more than 3000 € for a usable AWG, and everything cheaper is unusable, unreliable crap...

I'm a bit confused, which one is right? Because they kind of contradict each other.

[tautech]

Ah, ok, so this is the age old case of cheap rotary encoders used (button caps are placed at correct depth).

So nothing visibly rubbing that you can see ?

So, does the front panel come off without desoldering the input stage BNC jacks so the damn encoders can be changed for good ones? 

I don't have a Plus here ATM and haven't noticed any issues with encoders on any that have now gone onto customers. More due soon and before they go out the door I compensate all probes so will check if this is 'one off' problem you have....but not for a couple of weeks after they arrive.

AFAIK encoders are on the front panel and to access it the mainboard and chassis need be removed where there are hidden screws behind the front panel decal and it's possible you will damage the labelling removing the decal. BNC's are nut fixed to the chassis so no desoldering is required.

(And does the 5000 series have same problem?)

Not that I've ever noticed. 

[mawyatt]

Ah, ok, so this is the age old case of cheap rotary encoders used (button caps are placed at correct depth). So, does the front panel come off without desoldering the input stage BNC jacks so the damn encoders can be changed for good ones? 

(And does the 5000 series have same problem?)

Had to disassemble our entire SDS2102X Plus due to an unfortunate accident, not Siglent related. This requires no soldering, but does require carefully removing the front label that covers the input BNC connectors area. There are 3 bolts behind this label that must be removed before the front cover will come off. Be very careful removing the label, easily damaged. Of course you must also remove everything from the backside and into the interior, not hard or risky just be careful.

Although not an adventure planned, did take the time to check out the Siglent quality and design of the DSO from the inside. Very pleased with what was found, very high quality design, assembly and construction.

So bad news we had to completely disassemble our new DSO, good news it's back to working and impressed with what we found. Working is an understatement, as it's been enabled & expanded with every feature and 500MHz (measured 615MHz) BW with the kind help of folks here

Best,

[NCG]

Heatgun to the label area at around 100c helps with peeling. Despite the less than shiny spots here and there, I have to say I am impressed by the general build - must-have-Lecroy-at-home itch is weakening greatly. Btw, seems PWM fan could be used as there is 4 pin header there, not sure if anything is controlling it though.

[nctnico]

I tend to disagree. A good, reliable (as in 'works as expected') AWG sets you back several k€ and you'll still be below 30MHz.

By the same token, and by same logic, good scope starts at 20000€ and anything else is just toys and cheap crap. 

Now you are spouting nonsense. Your claim is that 500 euro buys you a very good AWG. But from my experience I know that isn't true. I have tested (nearly) all of the function generators in this price class and they all have shortcomings one way or another. Basically the only advantage is a higher output level compared to the AWGs built into the R&S scopes. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

[rf-loop]

I tend to disagree. A good, reliable (as in 'works as expected') AWG sets you back several k€ and you'll still be below 30MHz.

By the same token, and by same logic, good scope starts at 20000€ and anything else is just toys and cheap crap. 

Now you are spouting nonsense. Your claim is that 500 euro buys you a very good AWG. But from my experience I know that isn't true. I have tested (nearly) all of the function generators in this price class and they all have shortcomings one way or another. Basically the only advantage is a higher output level compared to the AWGs built into the R&S scopes. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

Here quick data about R&S® RTM-B6 Waveform Generator. For RTM3004 scope.
If forget it have Pattern  generator also then it have just 1 channel simple generator.
This option price label is EUR 700 VAT0.
Everyone can then think what is what...



But yes it have letters R&S.

[Vestom]

I disagree, you are doing just that, you just don't like that I think you're wrong. I also explained exactly why I'm advocating my stance..
...
And you failed to respect that our Chinese colleagues don't work for free, and that they gave you siggen worth the price. It is much cheaper than RTB2000, so simpler AWG, and effort went to make great scope.
If you wanted to get same features on SDS2000X+ it would have to be more expensive. Developing features takes time and money, even in China.

Where did I tell people what they don't want?

You are putting words in my mouth. Your logic can extent to all features people wish for in these threads - but your wishes are apparently more respectful wishes...

[Vestom]

BTW we even use the cheap Juntek Dual Channel DPA-1698 to bump the 2042X AWG outputs to 40VPP @1amp, although the BW is limited to 100KHz. It's noisy but can be a Poor Mans Programmable PS or higher power LF (noisy) AWG in a pinch (stepper motor drive).

Great tip  What noise levels are we talking about?

[2N3055]

I tend to disagree. A good, reliable (as in 'works as expected') AWG sets you back several k€ and you'll still be below 30MHz.

By the same token, and by same logic, good scope starts at 20000€ and anything else is just toys and cheap crap. 

Now you are spouting nonsense. Your claim is that 500 euro buys you a very good AWG. But from my experience I know that isn't true. I have tested (nearly) all of the function generators in this price class and they all have shortcomings one way or another. Basically the only advantage is a higher output level compared to the AWGs built into the R&S scopes. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

Like Vestom said to me, you are putting words in my mouth.

Where did I say that 500€ buys you very good AWG ? I said that 1000 € (i added it for you, price of more expensive scope and license, it's actually more but let's say 1000€ )

So I said that 1000 € buys you much better AWG than even one in RTB2000, or Keysight MSOX3000T.

You are saying that siggen in RTB2000 is better than Siglent SDG1000X/SDG2000X, or Rigol DG800/900. Or even that cute little UNI-T  UTG932/UTG962.
I disagree.

[tautech]

You are saying that siggen in RTB2000 is better than Siglent SDG1000X/SDG2000X,
I disagree.

30 MHz 14 bit 2ch $ 319 or 40 MHz 16 bit 2ch $ 499

[2N3055]

Where did I tell people what they don't want?

You are putting words in my mouth. Your logic can extent to all features people wish for in these threads - but your wishes are apparently more respectful wishes...
You did. I don't put words in your mouth. I just untangle them so you can't play little word games.

You said that you want SDS2000X+ to have same siggen as RTB2000 despite being much cheaper. All for the same money. So you want them to work more for much less money..
That is the meaning of your words.

"Where did I tell people what they don't want? "

What does that even mean... ?

I'm fed up that you keep picking 2 words out of my posts and then attacking them semantically, completely out of context.
So here, again, and for the last time:

- if you have to pay for it, all built in AWGs are bad value for money, except for FRA (which most of them do as a part or FRA license ), or easy quick and dirty replay of waveforms. They are very expensive for what that give you otherwise.
- they are good for salespeople for easy demos, and also for teaching environments, because they are already there and for simple things they are good enough.
- They are infinitely better than nothing, and you can do lots of stuff with them. I use them occasionally, when handy.
- They are generally not worth the money, if you have to pay for them (if you didn't get them for free or as part of bundle where price gets diluted). For the same amount of money you can buy standalone AWG that will be much better.
- Expecting that much cheaper instrument have same features is silly. They have to make some simplifications to keep the price down. And they simplified AWG which is right choice for a scope as a primary instrument. Unlike Rigol, that actually has much better AWG (for starters it is 2ch so better from the start), but has inferior FRA, inferior frontend (both noise and sensitivity), not very good implementation of Hires mode etc.. Those are bad priorities for a scope... Expecting that Chinese will work for free, while defending R&S charging you 1000s of € for the same thing, is some kind of bias. Let's not call it any names, but it is a unfair bias..
- Again, in the base price of scope, and AWG license alone, RTB2000 with 100 MHz bandwidth is more than 1000 € more expensive than SDS2104X+ with all licenses included. For the price difference, SDS2000X+ will get you one comparable scope with built in simpler siggen, and one standalone AWG. Or maybe even TWO....
So yeah, Siglent made better compromises and price optimisations for a scope.
- Separate AWG is more versatile. You can have two people working on something, one using scope, other one AWG..
- With Siglent, fact that AWG is separate is actually not a problem. They made integration between scope and external AWG, it works quite well, and you can run FRA with external AWG. I don't think R&S has same function. That is a great feature..

So if you don't care about money, you buy whatever you like.
In which case none of my comments are important.
If you have limited budget, you need to look for what is good value for money. And that includes hidden costs.
All that said, built in AWGs in scopes are usually bad value for money.  If you got them for free, by all means, enjoy. But if you need to pay for them full price (and or hidden cost) than they are economically bad choice because they are (at the moment) inferior to what  you can buy standalone for the price of options..

None of those are my opinions, those are simple and verifiable facts...

Best regards to all.

[Vestom]

And mine is bigger than the others...

For me, internal awgs are too weak what output amplitude concerns, in general.
It´s easy to say, well then use an additional amplifier - So I got a second, external unit on the bench - What is the difference having this in an external awg..
A few months ago, I´ve bought a siglent 2-ch awg with max 20Vpp and two channels and (now... ) 60Mhz bandwith.
It can do much more than other internal awgs and got better specs also - And costs appx around 300 bucks.
So I give a s*** on the int. awg and don´t care about the very rudimental (siglent internal awg) functions.

Big egos, small... 

Yeah, the SDGs are great buys - and I can certainly see the value in 20Vpp and two channels! The funny thing is, that the HW specs for the SDGs otherwise match the spec for the SDS siggen pretty closely: 14-bit, 125/150 MSps, 50/60 MHz, -40dBc distortion, 16ks waveform...
But wishing for Siglent to port some of the software features from their 300 bucks full two channel generator unit to their 200 bucks single channel software option is apparently disrespectful...

[2N3055]

Big egos, small... 

Yes, we can see that's your way of thinking... That's OK, thanks for sharing. That will never change the facts..

Yeah, the SDGs are great buys - and I can certainly see the value in 20Vpp and two channels! The funny thing is, that the HW specs for the SDGs otherwise match the spec for the SDS siggen pretty closely: 14-bit, 125/150 MSps, 50/60 MHz, -40dBc distortion, 16ks waveform...
But wishing for Siglent to port some of the software features from their 300 bucks full two channel generator unit to their 200 bucks single channel software option is apparently disrespectful...

No, it is expecting to port 1000€ R&S features to Siglent scope for free.... That is what are you comparing.
AWG on SDS2000X+ is free...

[rf-loop]

All these options are free now. Yes it is informed it continue limited time to  31.Mar.2021
And previously we have seen how Siglent promotional offers have gone.....

SDS2000XP-IIS: Decode I2S digital audio signals
SDS2000XP -FlexRay: Analyze Serial Flexray encoded signals
SDS2000XP -1553B: Decode Mil-1553B serial communications
SDS2000XP -CANFD: Analyze CANFD serial signals
SDS2000XP -PA: Power Analysis activation license
SDS2000XP -FG: Built-in 50 MHz arbitrary/function waveform generator

[Vestom]

AWG on SDS2000X+ is free...

Uhm, no - not for us that have already bought the scope. Thats is a "simple and verifiable fact" 

• I have to either pay 200 bucks to get it - and it seems we agree (I think) that is bad value compared to buying a standalone HW unit. Especially since it is so lacking in software features...
• Or, I will have to hack the scope - which would be "disrespectful and expecting the Chinese to work for free"

[jemangedeslolos]

2N3055, you are looking for face palm smiley,

hope it helps

[2N3055]

2N3055, you are looking for face palm smiley,

hope it helps

 

[2N3055]

AWG on SDS2000X+ is free...

Uhm, no - not for us that have already bought the scope. Thats is a "simple and verifiable fact" 

• I have to either pay 200 bucks to get it - and it seems we agree (I think) that is bad value compared to buying a standalone HW unit. Especially since it is so lacking in software features...
• Or, I will have to hack the scope - which would be "disrespectful and expecting the Chinese to work for free"

Thank you for that explanation, yes, you understood right, I would tell you not to pay for AWG option, but to rather give few € more and buy SDG1000X for both standalone and FRA with  integration. You can also use internal gen with FRA without AWG license..

None of manufacturers will give you access to licenses that are part of current promotion, to old customers that bought instrument when promotion didn't exist. That goes in the other way too, when R&S did a promotion where they sold fully loaded 350 MHz RTB2000 for 2100 USD in US for a short time, and then reverted back to higher prices.
Sometimes manufacturers decide to make some options part of base package, and they start pushing them in base firmware.  Keysight did that many times for some products, Rigol did, Siglent did, GW Instek did, many others did.
SDS2000X+ has not been blessed with that gift yet.

I never endorsed hacking the scope, all my comparisons compare retail prices and legal promos. But it surely is less damage for them for occasional user hacking the scope, for current work that is already made and amortized partially, or expect them to do additional work for something that should be no financial gain for sure, from the start..

I'm sure that they might be adding the features to stay competitive, once competition start upping features a drop prices.. Maybe they will realize giving up AWG free will up the sales more than it would be loss..

I don't know.

But if they decide to spend time developing features, there are many features that are larger priority, all mentioned by many users here:
- NctNico would like better memory control. After long argument, we all agreed that it would be good to give user control of that and would be beneficial to many users.
- Maybe decoding outside screen boundaries, from full memory?
- Search on serial protocols - that is important feature. Also from segments/history
- FRA needs polishing.
- FFT needs polishing.
- Zoom mode should have user configuration of primary/zoom window, preferably to the point of overview window being as small as possible, to maximize detail window..
- Statistics for mask mode

etc etc..

Once Siglent makes all that, if they have nothing better to do, I don't mind they upgrading AWG, and make it free...

[mawyatt]

BTW we even use the cheap Juntek Dual Channel DPA-1698 to bump the 2042X AWG outputs to 40VPP @1amp, although the BW is limited to 100KHz. It's noisy but can be a Poor Mans Programmable PS or higher power LF (noisy) AWG in a pinch (stepper motor drive).

Great tip  What noise levels are we talking about?

With input shorted I measure ~20mvpp and ~2.5mv SD. Has a 2X gain that measures 1.997 V/V with a shorted input offset of ~6.5mv. Max output is claimed to 40vpp which has been verified, although the 1a max current is optimistic more like ~630ma before the overload trips and shuts the amp down.

Best,

[mawyatt]

I tend to disagree. A good, reliable (as in 'works as expected') AWG sets you back several k€ and you'll still be below 30MHz.

By the same token, and by same logic, good scope starts at 20000€ and anything else is just toys and cheap crap. 

Now you are spouting nonsense. Your claim is that 500 euro buys you a very good AWG. But from my experience I know that isn't true. I have tested (nearly) all of the function generators in this price class and they all have shortcomings one way or another. Basically the only advantage is a higher output level compared to the AWGs built into the R&S scopes. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

$499 buys you a SDG2042X that's a pretty good dual channel with 1.2GSPS 16bit DAC AWG IMO. 

Best,

[nctnico]

I tend to disagree. A good, reliable (as in 'works as expected') AWG sets you back several k€ and you'll still be below 30MHz.

By the same token, and by same logic, good scope starts at 20000€ and anything else is just toys and cheap crap. 

Now you are spouting nonsense. Your claim is that 500 euro buys you a very good AWG. But from my experience I know that isn't true. I have tested (nearly) all of the function generators in this price class and they all have shortcomings one way or another. Basically the only advantage is a higher output level compared to the AWGs built into the R&S scopes. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

Like Vestom said to me, you are putting words in my mouth.

Where did I say that 500€ buys you very good AWG ? I said that 1000 € (i added it for you, price of more expensive scope and license, it's actually more but let's say 1000€ )

These are your own words from a few posts back:
For 560€ siggen price of license you can buy great external AWG  plus SDS2104X+ and still have 500€ left...

From my own testing it has become clear to me that this isn't true. The Siglent SDG2000X series is the best of the lot but it still suffers from accumulating rounding errors in the modulation part. And then there is Siglent's Easywave software which I prefer to forget about.

@rf-loop: on R&S scopes the waveform generator is part of a very nicely priced option bundle so the price is much lower than 700 euro.

[2N3055]

@rf-loop: on R&S scopes the waveform generator is part of a very nicely priced option bundle so the price is much lower than 700 euro.

Bundle which cost 1250 €....
So your idea of saving is to pay even more....

As for what I said, you went trough 10-15 of my posts to find one sentence to twist it and to catch on.
You know damn well what I wanted to say. I explained it in dozen of posts.
I don't write formal language for compiler. I expect reader to understand context.
I'm not defending myself in a court...

It is a great AWG for the money. Is that better?

[tautech]

And then there is Siglent's Easywave software which I prefer to forget about.

Maybe you haven't yet tried the new EasyWaveX ? 

[nctnico]

@rf-loop: on R&S scopes the waveform generator is part of a very nicely priced option bundle so the price is much lower than 700 euro.

Bundle which cost 1250 €....
So your idea of saving is to pay even more....

No. It just comes with the bundle for free from both R&S and Siglent. 

[2N3055]

@rf-loop: on R&S scopes the waveform generator is part of a very nicely priced option bundle so the price is much lower than 700 euro.

Bundle which cost 1250 €....
So your idea of saving is to pay even more....

No. It just comes with the bundle for free from both R&S and Siglent. 

Siglent bundle is free at the moment even with base scope.

With R&S you need to buy 3930€ COM4 version or pay 1496€ for bundle. There is nothing free there..