Siglent SDS2000X Plus

[tautech]

Getting back into topic...

About all those conditional BW upgrades, one thing seems clear: it's possible to upgrade a SDS2104X+ to 350MHz.   

And you stopped at 350 MHz ?   

[Martin72]

Hey, don´t blame him - I now have a 350Mhz scope for 1400 bucks….

(joking, big thanks to tv84 for his contributing)

[supperman]

Hey, don´t blame him - I now have a 350Mhz scope for 1400 bucks….

(joking, big thanks to tv84 for his contributing)

What did the scope do when you tried for 500Mhz???

[supperman]

Don´t have a generator with such a high frequency - Only the Leo pulse gen and then calculate the BW...
Edit: Picture enclosed

So either it does the math for the rise time on the actual display pixels (i.e. there is error since the time base is too large) or you are running at 500Mhz...

[nctnico]

Don´t have a generator with such a high frequency - Only the Leo pulse gen and then calculate the BW...
Edit: Picture enclosed

So either it does the math for the rise time on the actual display pixels (i.e. there is error since the time base is too large) or you are running at 500Mhz...

Just be aware that risetime doesn't always give the right bandwidth! It highly depends on what kind of anti-aliasing filter is used. For some scopes you'll need to use .4 or .45 as the constant. The only way to be 100% sure is to use a (levelled) frequency generator.

[rf-loop]

OK, "tomorrow"...

Another thing:

My siglent seems to be much noiseless as my former rigol 5074.
Apart from this, it shows no bandwith-limiting in the lower voltage ranges…
From 2mV on (till 500µV) rigol shows a "B" for bandwith-limited in this ranges.
Could this be real, no bandwith-limiting in that ranges ?

In datasheet first introduction pages there it is told indirectly.
Noise level 80uVrms @500MHz bandwidth and it read in image where is used 500uV/div
It is bit unbelievable but it was unbelievable also in SDS1204X-E for 200MHz BW and it is enough reliable ways confirmed truth, it is full BW.
Also 500uV/div have not any side notes in datasheet.

It need note that Siglent 10-90 risetime with 500MHz is specified 0.8ns in datasheet (in many 500MHz scopes it is calculated value as 0.7ns).
Because freq response is not (gaussian) what typically was when Tek define 350/risetime ns = BW MHz thumb rule.
Of course different BW shape give different risetime even if -3dB point freq is same. Depending BW shape it may vary lot of. It is well explained in some Agilent/Keysight and also others appnotes.
Only true semigood method is leveled sine wave generator what levels it in scope input connector. Next method is normal good quality RF gnerator  whet level is known in its output port and as good signal pathway to scope input as possible due to more or less impedance mismatch. Better method is...handfull of expensive things and...   oh... but who cares. This is oscilloscope what pure sinewave BW we do not need know with high rocket science accuracy.


Your risetime image tell it simply. We can now say it is 350MHz scope without a doubt. 


If compare 500uV/div range in SDS2000XPlus to SDS5000X, it loks like different. SDS5kX datasheet tell it, 350MHz model 500uV/div is limited to 200MHz
"Below 1 mV/div (included) the bandwidth is limited to 200 MHz"
And more, other SDS5kX models
"Below 2.45 mV/div (included) the bandwidth is limited to 200 MHz"

SDS2kXPlus datasheet do not tell half word about any exceptions with 500uV/div range.

[Serg65536]

Getting back into topic...

About all those conditional BW upgrades, one thing seems clear: it's possible to upgrade a SDS2104X+ to 350MHz.   

Is the two-channel version fully unlockable too?
I'm waiting the answer to buy a new oscilloscope. I've almost bought Rigol MSO5074, but the SDS2102x Plus is much better seems.

Please, point me to the unlock instruction.

[rf-loop]

Don´t have a generator with such a high frequency - Only the Leo pulse gen and then calculate the BW...
Edit: Picture enclosed

So either it does the math for the rise time on the actual display pixels (i.e. there is error since the time base is too large) or you are running at 500Mhz...

Siglent all new scopes after SDS1000X-E (including) do not measure calculate anything based display pixels, not even older what have intermediate buffer between image map and capture memory except very old siglent early phase first generation models aka ADS7000 or bit later SDS1000CM  etrc.

It use always full sample resolution acquisition memory, it is not from museum.
Fast timebases it also can use interpolation between true sample points. So it do not matter what timebase there is used in this case. Even if he use 1ms/div and look measurement statistics average after long time he get quite right number even when there it perhaps do not use interpolation between true samples.

If look only true sample interval alone what is 500ps in this case it is not enough for single shot measure this kind of risetime. But there is statistics, measurements average for repeating acquisitions with continuous waveforms.
Even extremely poor accuracy need 1.2 / 1.5 samples for edge under measurement. Poor accurcy can get with 1.75 sample for edge and some kind of medium accuracy using 3.5 samples for edge. Good accuracy can reach with 5 samples for edge... if all other things are not limiting accuracy. This is common rule, not related to any manufacturer.

[tv84]

And you stopped at 350 MHz ?   

If I say yes, you believe me? 

Tried but saw no model change so concluded as not effective. Didn't dedicate much time.

So, after we have the current 2354X+ envelope fully characterized, I think we can try again a 500 MHz scenario (if needed). I don't know if there is any "SDS2504X+" model string and if, as it is, it's already a 500MHz scope.   

[tautech]

And you stopped at 350 MHz ?   

If I say yes, you believe me? 

Tried but saw no model change so concluded as not effective. Didn't dedicate much time.

So, after we have the current 2354X+ envelope fully characterized, I think we can try again a 500 MHz scenario (if needed). I don't know if there is any "SDS2504X+" model string and if, as it is, it's already a 500MHz scope.   

This is the official 500 MHz option: SDS2000XP-4BW05 
https://siglentna.com/product/bandwidth-upgrade-350-to-500-mhz-4-channel-models-2/

[tv84]

This is the official 500 MHz option: SDS2000XP-4BW05 

Sure, but where can you show me a "SDS2504X+" label?

Maybe after inserting that lic, the model string continues as a "SDS2354X+". As if Siglent wasn't thinking in achieving the 500MHz model as default.

What I mean is: you can buy a SDS5104X but you can't buy a SDS2504X+...   

[Serg65536]

If I say yes, you believe me? 
Tried but saw no model change so concluded as not effective. Didn't dedicate much time.

Please give me a hint on the unlock procedure!

I can't wait to buy a new scope! 

[tv84]

Please give me a hint on the unlock procedure!

This is a PoC. No public release for now.

This is the official 500 MHz option: SDS2000XP-4BW05 

Wait for Martin's new info... 

[Martin72]

Hi,
I think we got the 500Mhz License installed.
Have a look at the pics below, if ONE channel is active, rise time will be appx 797ps - If you activate it´s neighbour, risetime increase to appx. 1.2ns and in both channels pops an "A" up.
Looking at the user manual, what does "A" means - Aha....

[tv84]

Looking at the user manual, what does "A" means - Aha....

Nice find!

So, the scope is working at 500 MHz mode and its model name is still "SDS2354X+".   

[Martin72]

The menu structure, the fast responsive of nearly everything are really impressive.
The rubber-coated handle....nice 
Actually, it´s a fine thing.

And the thin case and the non-toy-like structure on the frontpanel, everything is clear to see/easy to find.
I like it.

[Sighound36]

Very interesting discussion here chaps, which essentially has boiled down is tier 2 level equipment cap[able of holding at least some of its own against the more established big four?

I have tried Siglent scopes and find very capable items at hobbist prices as per Rigol at the difference feature  /price points.

When looking for new R&D scope recently we sampled the R&S RTB2000 series, Keysight InfiniiVision 6000 X-Series, Le-Croy WaveRunner 8000HD and the Tektronix 6 series

All very good scopes, excellent resolution, BW aplenty, up to 16 Bits resolution, large 12.1"+ screen sizes,  accuracy plenty of dedicated apps (relevant ones) expandable memory segmented and other wise windows options and a plethora of probes upto £8K.

We did spent a good amount to time with each unit: make no mistake all these scopes are genuine R&D lab worth devices unquestionably.

The R&S I just didn't get on with, a personal no likie of the GUI, performance wise I felt it was joint 2nd of the group with the Keysight, the Lecroy I felt had the best jitter measurement suit and offered a greater insight in that area, not by much, for us it quirky-ness did sit well with the staff, though no doubt its a damn fine scope. Other may well find a different result.

For ourselves the Tek Mso64 gave our requirements the best spread of performance, apps and resolution and the GUI is very intuitive, all of these scopes with our requirements (including probes and apps) were are north of £50K + vat.

This is a matter of user preference which I feel is what we are boiling down to.

[rf-loop]

Looking at the user manual, what does "A" means - Aha....

Nice find!

So, the scope is working at 500 MHz mode and its model name is still "SDS2354X+".   

Hahaha... there is not software switch what swap model number between SDS2354X+ and SDS2502X+ 

[tv84]

Hahaha... there is not software switch what swap model number between SDS2354X+ and SDS2502X+ 

And, in logical terms, I would say that we can take a "SDS2102X+" to "SDS2501X+" terrain...

[pizzarollz]

I've been following this thread for a bit. I'm an embedded systems engineer and I'm looking for a DSO that I can use for working from home/for personal projects. I've been looking at both the SDS2104X+ and the MSO5074 as they're both within my budget and unlockable. I've heard a lot of complaints about Rigol's firmware bugs and crappy UI. Would the Siglent be a better choice? How would you rate the interface? The touchscreen seems like a great addition.

Thanks.

[Martin72]

Hi,

I´ve owned a 5074 for a year, so I can compare it with my new siglent.
But first of all:
The bugs the rigol got, aren´t so dramatically as they seem reading the posts.
You could work with it.

Rigol vs Siglent…

Rigol got lots of math functions and 4 math traces at same time displaying is possible. 8GSa/s vs the 2GSa/s the siglent got.
Both of them got 200Mpts Memory(when the rigol was unlocked), rigol got an HDMI Output, the siglent doesn´t have, even no VGA.
But this is unimportant, IMHO..
Because now to the Pros of the siglent.
Bigger screen, significant brighter and clearer. Touchpanel is significant faster what response concerns and seems to me more precisely.
Generally, the performance seems for me to be faster.
The menu structures are more clearer and understandable, 50Ohm Inputs, significant less noise in mV ranges (will test it), Eres function and finally it looks (and feels) more "adulter" to me.
But you will pay 500 bucks more for this puppy, so it should be "more" too...

[0xdeadbeef]

Admittedly, I'm a bit tempted to get one. I always dreamt about my next scope being in the 1GHz and >= 8GSa/s range but to be completely honest, where my current HMO2024 lacks the most is memory depth, screen size and lack of touch functionality (I'm using touchscreen Lecroys at work for >10years). So the SDS2104X+ "upgraded" to 500MHz would be still a big improvement in almost every possible aspect. And the cheapest 4ch SDS5000X is 2k€ more expensive which is just a bit too much to justify for me at this point.  Hm, I wonder if Batronix offers the  "embedded world" discount again this year.

[Martin72]

Here is an example why I like the eres function.
And it´s an example that having "tons" of memorypoints are not in every case a advantage.
Feeding in a 400hz sinewave with less Amplitude to get noisefloor, the right thing for the eres function, see below.
Before the pic was taken, I was confused about the behaviour.
Extreme slowing down, reactions last for seconds, the eres function looked worser than the original signal - what is happen ?
Answer: full memorydepth of 200Mpts...
Reduced this to 200K, signal becomes the shape I expected and reactions of the system are in normal manner.

A little hint for siglent : Like to have the actual math function displayed, in this case F1 eres…

Martin

[nctnico]

Note that on other scopes Eres filtering is typically done in hardware (and not as a math function) so there is no slowdown even with deep memory enabled. Instead of Eres in software a user settable filter function would be much more usefull. GW Instek (for example) went this route. There is no Eres in hardware but instead there is signal filtering (low/high/band pass) which is actually more usefull to get rid of unwanted frequency components.

[Martin72]

Noticed. 
I´ve survived the last 20yrs with software filtering, it wouldn´t kill me anymore.