Author Topic: Siglent SDS2000X HD, 12bit, 2GSa/s high definition oscilloscope serie.  (Read 344744 times)

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Offline Performa01

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X HD, 12bit, 2GSa/s high definition oscilloscope serie.
« Reply #275 on: July 26, 2022, 05:29:24 pm »
Inspired by the gadget shown here

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sa-lf-con-spectrum-analyzer-low-frequency-converter/

I wondered if this could provide a real benefit – at least for someone who already owns an SDS2000X HD.

The DSO has the major advantage of a Hi-Z input with very high overload tolerance that works down to DC.

The attached screenshots demonstrate the performance of the SDS2000X HD when measuring the harmonics of -50 dBm signals (this is only 707 µVrms) at 5, 50 and 500 Hz as well as 5 and 50 kHz.

SDS2504X HD_FFT_5Hz_-50dBm_df0.24Hz
SDS2504X HD_FFT_50Hz_-50dBm_df0.24Hz
SDS2504X HD_FFT_500Hz_-50dBm_df0.24Hz
SDS2504X HD_FFT_5kHz_-50dBm_df0.24Hz
SDS2504X HD_FFT_50kHz_-50dBm_df9.54Hz

I have emulated a RBW of 1 Hz for all tests except 50 kHz, where it is more like 35 Hz.

Unless speed is the major goal, the SDS2000X HD appears to perform very well, even at these very low frequencies – with one major exception: down below 50 Hz, the noise floor appears at least 10 dB higher.

But with the DSO we have the option to lower the RBW below 1 Hz, so let’s try ~45 mHz for a change:

SDS2504X HD_FFT_5Hz_-50dBm_df0.01Hz

That’s what I call a decent frequency resolution! Also, the noise floor is now below -120 dBm for frequencies above 1 Hz. Let’s not forget: -120 dBm means just 223 nVrms.

Yes, this setting is slooow. But then again, it’s up to you to decide how often you need to measure signals down below 1 µV at frequencies that low.

 
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Offline Performa01

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X HD, 12bit, 2GSa/s high definition oscilloscope serie.
« Reply #276 on: July 26, 2022, 08:08:02 pm »
Very clever use of the SDS HD capabilities, need to give the X Plus a try!!
I’ve tried this already but did not get any good results – certainly nothing better as with the traditional method (without mixing).

As you mentioned if Siglent would include full "length reference waveforms" then an external LO is not required, and if they incorporate some nice digital filters....well they open up a whole new user feature set and expand the simple DSO into the signal processing instrument space!!!
In the SDS6000, we already have memory traces. Not sure if and when we’ll get that on lower end models, but it is a first step nevertheless.


Another pretty piece of modern art…

This is the spectrum of the virtual mixer output. It is baffling that the math can produce quite strong intermodulation products – probably the input signal level on channel 2 was a bit too high…

SDS2504X HD_FFT_DC_Mod_19.6MHz_29.6MHz

Marker 1: Third order intermodulation product (2*fo – fs)
Marker 2: Down-converted input signal (fs – fo)
Marker 3: Oscillator signal (fo)
Marker 4: Fourth order intermodulation product (3*fo – fs)
Marker 5: Input signal (fs)
Marker 6: third order intermodulation product (2*fs – fo)
Marker 7: Up-converted input signal (fs + fo)
Marker 8: Spurious signal?

As usual, third order intermodulation products are a pain in the backside, because they cannot be filtered.

 
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Online Martin72

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X HD, 12bit, 2GSa/s high definition oscilloscope serie.
« Reply #277 on: July 26, 2022, 10:05:23 pm »
Hi,

Bodeplot the very very very last... ;)

Maximum frequency is 120Mhz, according to the external connected generator I guess(SDG2000X for example).
SDG6000X got max 500Mhz, are there "natural" limitations which makes it not possible to get higher when the connected generator will "allow" this ?
Or can/will the maximum frequency in the menu increased someday ?

"Comparison is the end of happiness and the beginning of dissatisfaction."
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Siglent SDS800X HD Deep Review
 

Offline mawyatt

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X HD, 12bit, 2GSa/s high definition oscilloscope serie.
« Reply #278 on: July 27, 2022, 01:24:03 am »
Yes a higher upper frequency limit would be nice, maybe even lower to 1Hz (if they allow a user selective average this might not take so much time). One issue going higher would be the delay and frequency dependent errors of the scope, probes and fixture (if any), this might require a thru and short circuit calibration (similar to calibrating a network analyzer), and a load cal if 50 ohms is utilized.

Anyway, all this seems reasonable with an external AWG and scope that supports such (the SDG6000 can go to 500MHz).

Best,
Curiosity killed the cat, also depleted my wallet!
~Wyatt Labs by Mike~
 
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Offline TopQuark

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X HD, 12bit, 2GSa/s high definition oscilloscope serie.
« Reply #279 on: July 27, 2022, 04:10:01 am »
Hi,

Bodeplot the very very very last... ;)

Maximum frequency is 120Mhz, according to the external connected generator I guess(SDG2000X for example).
SDG6000X got max 500Mhz, are there "natural" limitations which makes it not possible to get higher when the connected generator will "allow" this ?
Or can/will the maximum frequency in the menu increased someday ?

Yea, I've been working on a current source with ~20MHz bandwidth and been using the bode plot function to the 120MHz limit, and I've found out the hard way that for measurements north of ~50MHz it is really easy to get nonsense or misleading measurements. Lead length mismatch gives wrong phase measurements, and probe loading (even at 10x) will mess up amplitude readings (this effect is or course present in time domain as well, but the log(Vout/Vin) plot is particularly sensitive to this effect while hiding the issue well when just looking at the bode plot).
 
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Offline Performa01

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X HD, 12bit, 2GSa/s high definition oscilloscope serie.
« Reply #280 on: July 27, 2022, 09:33:33 am »
Maximum frequency is 120Mhz, according to the external connected generator I guess(SDG2000X for example).
SDG6000X got max 500Mhz, are there "natural" limitations which makes it not possible to get higher when the connected generator will "allow" this ?
Or can/will the maximum frequency in the menu increased someday ?

When Bode Plot was introduced in 2017, the 120 MHz limit has been defined because of the frequency range of the SDG2000X. The SDS6000X wasn't yet available back then.

Of course, when SDG6000X became available, a higher limit for the Bode Plot has been considered - and there have been even serious plans actually increasing it.

But at the same time we gathered experience with the existing implementation and it turned out that things aren't that straight forward. Keeping the phase equal between channels proved to be tricky, to say the least. It is hard enough to ensure equal phase at the scope inputs, when a coax length difference of only 4.5 mm already generates a phase shift of 1 degree at 120 MHz. But even when the users got their setup completely right, there were still inaccuracies in the Bode Plot itself. I do not know where they came from, because there were absolutely no visible errors in the time domain, but quite obviously some of the usual corrective measures weren't applicable for Bode Plot. We got phase deviations already within one ADC (channels 1+2 or 3+4) and all the more so when the reference channel was on one ADC and the measurement channel on the other (which might have been preferable because of even less crosstalk).

To cut a long story short, the error could be minimized, but not completely eliminated, see attached screenshot for the SDS2354X Plus.

SDS2354X+_FRA_Reference

Of course, I cannot rule out some residual phase shift in my test setup, and the 200 MHz bandwidth limit already starts to show an effect at 120 MHz, which might be slightly different for different channels, but the Bode Plot indicates that the error will hardly exceed about 1.5° at 120 MHz, because that is what I got for channel 2 when channel 1 was the reference. Channels 3 and 4 are worse, on the latter the phase error already exceeds 5°.

Under these conditions, we agreed that any higher frequency limit would take matters a bit too far.

Regarding the lower limit, this is another one I've requested a long time ago – and more than once.

The lower limit is 10 Hz because the errors introduced by AC-coupling can easily be handled down to this frequency. We don't want to use DC-coupling, because then we might have to take care of DC offsets (remember that Bode Plot utilizes vertical gain settings down to 500 µV/div), which might not even be constant during a single pass. This could cause enormous additional effort and headaches. Furthermore, it will be very slow, even without averaging. Yet averaging will be essential to get good results, especially at the very low frequencies, because 1/f noise will take its toll down there.

 
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Offline mawyatt

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X HD, 12bit, 2GSa/s high definition oscilloscope serie.
« Reply #281 on: July 27, 2022, 01:09:28 pm »
The phase/amplitude should be correctable with a calibration as mentioned. However, this does introduce a calibration step (will take some time) which could be selectable in the Bode menu, and if not user selected maybe a file or previous calibration data invoked.

Anyway, all this as usual is easy for armchair designers/engineers that don't have to do the work  ::)

Best
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~Wyatt Labs by Mike~
 

Offline Performa01

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X HD, 12bit, 2GSa/s high definition oscilloscope serie.
« Reply #282 on: July 27, 2022, 04:09:18 pm »
The phase/amplitude should be correctable with a calibration as mentioned. However, this does introduce a calibration step (will take some time) which could be selectable in the Bode menu, and if not user selected maybe a file or previous calibration data invoked.

Anyway, all this as usual is easy for armchair designers/engineers that don't have to do the work  ::)

Yeah, that's what we have to face all the time: Siglent’s Bode Plotter, among other things, supports three channels and covers 10 Hz - 120 MHz, even in the cheap SDS1004X-E lower entry level series.

Siglent were the first to offer that application – for free on top of that. Back in late 2016, when the first Version of their Bode Plot has been specified, there were no other scopes that had that, except Keysight, where the Bode Plotter was included as part of their expensive Power Analysis package. Ah yes, and some cheap Velleman USB-scope had it too, but I’ve never met anyone who’s ever used one.

Today, nearly every vendor offers that gadget, but none of them seem to be overly ambitious and for some it’s a "me too" feature, just to tick some checkbox. Does anyone else have a comparable dynamic range, support more than one channel or go higher than 30 MHz?

Considering all this, it’s only natural to request even more from an instrument that happens to have made an application popular, that used to be rather exotic until only few years ago. So why not implement a fully fledged network analyzer with full calibration. Heck, Siglent has Signal Generators (SSG) up to the GHz range that could be controlled by the DSO, so why not support Bode Plot beyond 500 MHz?

😊

 

Offline TopQuark

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X HD, 12bit, 2GSa/s high definition oscilloscope serie.
« Reply #283 on: July 27, 2022, 05:17:40 pm »
Yea with Rigol launching their own 12-bit scopes, I think it lights a fire under Siglent and hopefully pushes them to launch software features faster for their products to make them stand out.
 

Online Martin72

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X HD, 12bit, 2GSa/s high definition oscilloscope serie.
« Reply #284 on: July 27, 2022, 07:40:57 pm »
Well,
I rather would have a "few" features which are working instead a "ton" of them and nothing seems to be completey polished.
This was the reason I´ve changed from MSO5000 to SDS2K+.
It got less features, but what it got it works.
Same with the HD vs. perhaps the HDO4000.
"Comparison is the end of happiness and the beginning of dissatisfaction."
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Siglent SDS800X HD Deep Review
 

Offline tv84

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X HD, 12bit, 2GSa/s high definition oscilloscope serie.
« Reply #285 on: July 27, 2022, 08:01:13 pm »
Same with the HD vs. perhaps the HDO4000.

Martin, no need to bash the HDO before more is known.

As there are no residing fanboys it's unfair.
 

Online Martin72

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X HD, 12bit, 2GSa/s high definition oscilloscope serie.
« Reply #286 on: July 27, 2022, 08:10:29 pm »
Therefore "perhaps".
"Comparison is the end of happiness and the beginning of dissatisfaction."
(Kierkegaard)
Siglent SDS800X HD Deep Review
 

Offline tv84

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X HD, 12bit, 2GSa/s high definition oscilloscope serie.
« Reply #287 on: July 27, 2022, 08:17:19 pm »
Therefore "perhaps".

So, it's perhaps unfair.
 

Online Martin72

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X HD, 12bit, 2GSa/s high definition oscilloscope serie.
« Reply #288 on: July 27, 2022, 08:31:14 pm »
OK my friend.
"Comparison is the end of happiness and the beginning of dissatisfaction."
(Kierkegaard)
Siglent SDS800X HD Deep Review
 

Offline tv84

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X HD, 12bit, 2GSa/s high definition oscilloscope serie.
« Reply #289 on: August 31, 2022, 06:44:14 pm »
Service Manual for SDS2000X HD.
 
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Online Martin72

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X HD, 12bit, 2GSa/s high definition oscilloscope serie.
« Reply #290 on: August 31, 2022, 07:41:31 pm »
Nice, now I´m curious when the first firmware update will be released...
I "know" from the second HD owner (I guess actually you can count them on one hand ) that his scope got a different, newer version than mine.

"Comparison is the end of happiness and the beginning of dissatisfaction."
(Kierkegaard)
Siglent SDS800X HD Deep Review
 

Offline Performa01

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X HD, 12bit, 2GSa/s high definition oscilloscope serie.
« Reply #291 on: September 02, 2022, 08:29:14 am »
There has been a request in the SDS2000X Plus thread for a noise measurement with the HD instrument:

I used the SDS2354x to get an exact noise level of 0dBm with 40 MHz bandwidth from an SDG6054X.

To set the exact level of  223.6 mV the Measure -> Tools -> Trend -> Trent-Stdv function  of the scope
is very helpful to get a 'quiet' reading.

I adjusted the SDG to for a reading of 223.5 mV average(stdv)  from the scope, the SDG showed 256.8 mV output at 50 Ohm then.


I verified the reading of the scope with an SSA3032X-R which should  have showed a level in dBm/Hz which is 10 * log(40E6) dB lower
at -76.02 dBm/Hz.

The analyzer readout was -75.85 dBm/Hz (f=10MHz,Zero Span,BW RBW=1kHz,VBW=10Hz. AVG=200) which  showes a very satisfying
accuracy of Siglent measurement devices. :-+
With a noise-bandwith of 42 MHz the reading at the SSA was -76.0dBm/Hz!

The SDS2000Xplus scopes have more bandwith and therefore a better crest-factor than the old HP 3400A or 3400B rf-millivoltmeters.
Such a scope is a remunerative investment for hobbyists in many repects.

Can you post a similiar measurement with your SDS2000X-HD?

Well, let’s see…

I used the SDG7102A for generating white noise with 40 MHz bandwidth.

I adjusted the SDG for a Stdev reading of 223.5 mV average from the scope, see attached screenshot.

SDS2504X HD_Measure_Noise_40MHz_0dBm

The SDG7102A is a 1 GHz AWG, hence it had to be set to only 206 mV Stdev to get this level for 40 MHz bandwidth.

Originally, I wanted to verify the generator signal with my very accurate RF-power meter with 18 GHz sensor, until it occurred to me that a diode sensor will not provide a rms reading…

So I used the channel power measurement of my SA. Lo and behold, the difference was in the realm of 0.1 dB. See 2nd screenshot.

SDG7102A_Noise_40MHz_206mV_Ref

 
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Offline kladit

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X HD, 12bit, 2GSa/s high definition oscilloscope serie.
« Reply #292 on: September 03, 2022, 11:16:33 am »
performa01, thank you ver much.
I like the numbered y-axis of the HD, hope this will come to 8-Bit variants as well.
I was wondering which way you read out the 0.1dB accuracy from of the second screenshot.


Here now my screenshots

The SDG6052X generates noise with 40 MHz bandwitdh.
The SDS2354X-Plus is used to adjust the noise amplitude to
exact 0 dBm ~223.6 mV.
The SSA-3032X-R noise marker shows the noise-density in 1 Hz
which should be 10 x log(40E6) ~ 76.02 dB lower.

The agreement of what should and what is measured is excellent.

1581100-0

1581106-1
 

Offline Performa01

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X HD, 12bit, 2GSa/s high definition oscilloscope serie.
« Reply #293 on: September 03, 2022, 12:16:50 pm »
I like the numbered y-axis of the HD, hope this will come to 8-Bit variants as well.

It is identical on the SDS2000X Plus with FW 1.5.2, but exists for much longer, albeit in a less optimized form.
Axis labels are disabled by default though, so you need to enable them in the Display menu.


I was wondering which way you read out the 0.1dB accuracy from of the second screenshot.

See attached crop from that second screenshot.

It displays the channel power of a 40 MHz wide channel, which reads 0.09 dBm.

Since we aimed for a total power of 0 dBm at 40 MHz bandwidth, this should be spot -on...
« Last Edit: September 03, 2022, 12:23:18 pm by Performa01 »
 

Offline jord4231

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X HD, 12bit, 2GSa/s high definition oscilloscope serie.
« Reply #294 on: September 07, 2022, 05:29:24 am »
Hi All SDS2000X HD owners, I'm currently contemplating this purchase.
I'm looking for a scope for my other bench. My current main scope is a MSO5000.

So my question is So far are you all happy with the scope?

Cheers  8)

Online Martin72

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X HD, 12bit, 2GSa/s high definition oscilloscope serie.
« Reply #295 on: September 07, 2022, 06:08:43 am »
Quote
So far are you all happy with the scope?

Me, yes. Don't know what the thoughts of the second one are  8)
"Comparison is the end of happiness and the beginning of dissatisfaction."
(Kierkegaard)
Siglent SDS800X HD Deep Review
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X HD, 12bit, 2GSa/s high definition oscilloscope serie.
« Reply #296 on: September 07, 2022, 06:43:05 am »
Hi All SDS2000X HD owners, I'm currently contemplating this purchase.
I'm looking for a scope for my other bench. My current main scope is a MSO5000.

So my question is So far are you all happy with the scope?

Cheers  8)

That is very nonspecific question ...  ^-^
People can be happy (or unhappy) for many reasons.

Do you want to know something specific? Is there specific type of work you would do with it? Any specific concern?
 

Offline jord4231

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X HD, 12bit, 2GSa/s high definition oscilloscope serie.
« Reply #297 on: September 07, 2022, 06:43:24 am »
Thanks Martin72 I'm very close to pulling the trigger

Offline jord4231

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X HD, 12bit, 2GSa/s high definition oscilloscope serie.
« Reply #298 on: September 07, 2022, 06:50:05 am »
2N3055 no specific concerns but I do think about things like is the UI user friendly (having not own siglent before) I find the mso5000 a bit clunky sometimes I've also had it crash.I spent a long time chasing a signal when the scope wasn't triggering because of a bug https://youtu.be/Fg9eL_EKgmE

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Re: Siglent SDS2000X HD, 12bit, 2GSa/s high definition oscilloscope serie.
« Reply #299 on: September 07, 2022, 08:38:12 am »
2N3055 no specific concerns but I do think about things like is the UI user friendly (having not own siglent before)....
FWIW a NZ corporate customer had a SDS2104X Plus on trial for a few days then a few weeks later and sight unseen ordered SDS2354X HD today.
They have several HPAKs but price and feature set was very convincing.

As it will be the first we have brought into NZ I get the feeling our PD checks may take a little longer than normal.  :-DD
Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
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