Siglent SDS1202X-E compensation issue (and other manufacturers ?)

[mr.fabe]

The supplier is not all that clear.  Attached are screenshots of the main item page and of my order page.  The first gives a link to Siglent Technologies which goes to a page that lists most of their product offerings.  The second hints that the order was fulfilled by Amazon.  I suspect it is the latter as I had to pay Kansas sales tax on the purchase.

Return it and if you decide to purchase it again, verify that Amazon is an authorized distributer or your SOL on your warranty.  If you choose Saelig or Transcat, you may save $ on sales tax.

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[tautech]

The supplier is not all that clear.  Attached are screenshots of the main item page and of my order page.  The first gives a link to Siglent Technologies which goes to a page that lists most of their product offerings.  The second hints that the order was fulfilled by Amazon.  I suspect it is the latter as I had to pay Kansas sales tax on the purchase.

FFS that's Siglent America's Amazon shop !   

They should know better ! 

Edit
SEND IT BACK !

[mr.fabe]

The supplier is not all that clear.  Attached are screenshots of the main item page and of my order page.  The first gives a link to Siglent Technologies which goes to a page that lists most of their product offerings.  The second hints that the order was fulfilled by Amazon.  I suspect it is the latter as I had to pay Kansas sales tax on the purchase.

FFS that's Siglent America's Amazon shop !   

They should know better ! 

The manufacturer comments in the negative review states:

"Please contact Amazon to get a replacement scope. The small "blip" that shows up when changing the input range and compensating the scope probe has been updated in the later units."

They suggest that the scope with the compensation issue should be returned for a replacement scope yet they refuse to honor the problem under warranty?  Am I reading this wrong?

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[Ephemeral]

Isn't a return and replacement.. Somewhat a warranty-like action?

Seems like there's a tiny bit of quibbling at this point over a proposed solution.

[mr.fabe]

Isn't a return and replacement.. Somewhat a warranty-like action?

Seems like there's a tiny bit of quibbling at this point over a proposed solution.

If the purchased was within the return window, you get a refund/replacement.  The problem is when you have the unit for several months and just discovered the compensation issue.  If you manage to receive the missing caps from Siglent and want to update the unit yourself, then that's your choice.  Not everyone want to spend the time to fix a manufacturer defect, put the unit's calibration in question and future warranty issues in jeopardy if Siglent claims you performed the update incorrectly.

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[Paul Moir]

Also consider that Siglent specifically disclaims themselves from damage you may do when you put in capacitors which they left out.  Also consider that we who purchased our oscilloscopes through the authorised dealer chain have not been notified by the dealers of the defect.  And consider that Siglent is apparently still trying to "flush" the defective units from the "pipeline" by dumping them on ignorant purchasers.  This is pretty embarrassing.

[borjam]

If the purchased was within the return window, you get a refund/replacement.  The problem is when you have the unit for several months and just discovered the compensation issue.  If you manage to receive the missing caps from Siglent and want to update the unit yourself, then that's your choice.  Not everyone want to spend the time to fix a manufacturer defect, put the unit's calibration in question and future warranty issues in jeopardy if Siglent claims you performed the update incorrectly.

Yes, which means that the three year warranty is false. I bet a lawsuit in Europe would work but it's not worth the hassle. Even worse, seems that inventory affected by the flaw has not been recalled. "Hey, make sure to state that you want a BB+ serial number when ordering!" 

Specs or not specs, does the manual say that the compensation has to be adjusted for each vertical range? No it doesn´t.. So it's a manufacturing defect that should be covered by warranty.

A shame, as the SDS1202X-E is much better executed than the Rigol DS1000Z series (I own both and the interpolation insanity in the Rigol is a serious design flaw in my opinion). But I guess they need to learn a lesson or two on business ethics.

Besides, a free lesson on marketing and brand image. My brother works for a stage lighting and equipment company. People in that sectors are heavy users of Leatherman multi tools and they abuse them a lot. Guess what does Leatherman do when you send it back for service? Despite the pretty much obvious heavy use they repair it for free. Are they stupid? No, they are not. They know that most of their customers won't need a repair, only a minority. And seeing my brother at work with a flawless unit is good publicity for them. "Hey, look at these guys, and despite how much they use the tool it's spotless!".

[TK]

The supplier is not all that clear.  Attached are screenshots of the main item page and of my order page.  The first gives a link to Siglent Technologies which goes to a page that lists most of their product offerings.  The second hints that the order was fulfilled by Amazon.  I suspect it is the latter as I had to pay Kansas sales tax on the purchase.

FFS that's Siglent America's Amazon shop !   

They should know better ! 

The manufacturer comments in the negative review states:

"Please contact Amazon to get a replacement scope. The small "blip" that shows up when changing the input range and compensating the scope probe has been updated in the later units."

They suggest that the scope with the compensation issue should be returned for a replacement scope yet they refuse to honor the problem under warranty?  Am I reading this wrong?

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This is because any seller needs to honor amazon's return policy if they want to keep the store open.  It has nothing to do with recognizing the problem.  If buyers file too many A-Z claims, then amazon closes the store.

[ian.ameline]

I'm planning on buying one of these scopes from Amazon in Canada. ($422 Canadian -- which is $351US)

If I get one with the probe compensation issue, I will return it and post a review to that effect, warning other potential buyers of the issue. I know this is a very inexpensive scope, and that they likely don't have the margins built in to this product to support extensive warranty claims, but
it's been over 3 months since they started manufacturing correct units - if they still have defective units in the distribution pipeline that they are knowingly selling, that's on them.


 

[Loboscope]

It seems, that not all of the 1202X-E-Scopes of the first charge are affected from the compensation issue, respectively not similar affected.
I bought my 1202X-E more than half a year ago and now I detected this thread and I tested my item.

I attached the screenshots and as long as I can evaluate the results, I guess, I can be happy!

[djadeski]

To add to the context, I ordered a SDS1202x-e from amazon.ca after confirming via chat that all in stock were supposed to be post fix with BB serial numbers.  I received a unit with the fix with BB serial number.  All was well for a week though the buttons were a little intermittent in terms of contact but seemed to be working in and becoming more reliable.  For example  the trigger and common function buttons were initially not consistently activating with a single push - they might flash or take two/three pushes to activate.  This seemed to be getting better with use. 

I was on the fence and might have returned it anyway when the large horizontal control knob seized up on Friday. 

Amazon is shipping a replacement so I will see when it arrives.

[mr.fabe]

To add to the context, I ordered a SDS1202x-e from amazon.ca after confirming via chat that all in stock were supposed to be post fix with BB serial numbers.  I received a unit with the fix with BB serial number.  All was well for a week though the buttons were a little intermittent in terms of contact but seemed to be working in and becoming more reliable.  For example  the trigger and common function buttons were initially not consistently activating with a single push - they might flash or take two/three pushes to activate.  This seemed to be getting better with use. 

I was on the fence and might have returned it anyway when the large horizontal control knob seized up on Friday. 

Amazon is shipping a replacement so I will see when it arrives.

Glad to hear that your able to replace the unit!

Imagine if you had one of the defective units and had performed the cap installation on your own...

[N0NB]

My one star review is now live on Amazon's page for this 'scope.  I'm curious whether I'll receive a reply from Siglent USA.   

[mr.fabe]

My one star review is now live on Amazon's page for this 'scope.  I'm curious whether I'll receive a reply from Siglent USA.   

Siglent is aware and has been monitoring this forum but has been silent... I'm sure they saw your review

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[ian.ameline]

I read your review -- I didn't think you were being overly harsh - you clearly described the issue, provided evidence of the issue, and proposed a remedy (recall). The remedy might be a little extreme, but I believe Siglent should, at least, offer to repair the affected scopes under warranty. The repaired scopes would, of course, have a valid warranty for the remainder of the warranty period, and be correctly calibrated before shipping back to customers. Siglent should at least pay for shipping 1 way. If they want to be seen as a class act, they should pay for shipping both ways.

Ignoring the issue, hoping it will die out, or providing the caps and asking users to fix it (risking damage not covered under warranty) are, in my opinion, all signs of a company that does not stand behind its products, and does not care about its customers.

I sympathize with Siglent - They have made a great product, but it has a flaw that cannot be patched with software - that is bad luck. But if you want to play the game, you have to accept losing hands as well as winning ones. Fixing this may wipe out all the profits for the affected units. Or may even cost more than that. But if Siglent wants a good reputation (and reputation for reliability and accuracy is absolutely necessary to sell test instruments), they need to put on their big-boy pants and fix this. A simple statement from Siglent would lay all this to rest;

"Siglent will promptly honor all warranty claims against defective products. Please contact Siglent with the model number & serial number of the affected unit, and a brief description of the problem. Siglent will provide a shipping label to affix to your box to ship it to the nearest Siglent repair facility. The device will either be repaired or replaced with an equivalent device at Siglent's option. You can expect return shipment within 10 business days of Siglent receiving the defective device."

A manufacturer or service provider should not argue the validity of a claim -- that is never a winning argument. Just fix or replace. If no satisfaction can be found, offer a refund.

How hard would that be? Apply that consistently, and you'll have loyal customers rallying to your defense every time something happens.
 

[N0NB]

I would like to think that Siglent is formulating a response, but after nearly 120 days after being informed about the issue, things are still very quiet.  Also, unless the bar codes on my box hint at the serial number in some non-obvious way, the box would need to be opened and each individual unit visually checked for a BA or BB serial number.  I can't see Amazon doing that.

Siglent's warranty is reasonably short.

Service Commitment
Warranty
The following warranty applies to all SIGLENT products procured through the SIGLENT approved representatives and/or distributors. Product purchased from outside the SIGLENT network will be serviced by the selling agents and not SIGLENT Technologies.
1.   SIGLENT Technologies. warrants its products’ mainframe and accessories in materials and technologies within the warranty period. During the period concerned, SIGLENT guarantees the free replacement or repair of products which are approved as defective.
2. All Siglent test instruments come with a 3 year warranty on parts and labor, with the following exception - All accessories and batteries come with a one-year warranty.  In above-mentioned periods, any hardware or software errors that occur due to quality or workmanship flaws will be examined and repaired or replaced, at Siglent’s discretion, by the SIGLENT Maintenance Center or its authorized maintenance branch at no charge.
3.   The warranty period starts from the date of the valid certificate of purchase (receipt or invoice). If the invoice cannot be offered, the starting date will adopt the manufacturer’s delivery date. In the event of a sale or product transfer by the original purchaser to a third party, the warranty period shall be three (3) years or one (1) year (See #2) from the date of purchase of the product by the original purchaser from SIGLENT or its authorized distributors.
4.   For in warranty service, SIGLENT strives to attain fast turn-around. Normal repair time is less than 14 business days. For service that will exceed this time SIGLENT will attempt to provide loaner units to be used during the repair cycle. Final availability of loaner units will be at SIGLENT’s discretion. The transportation cost of return to customer will be paid by SIGLENT. If the special transportation is required, please make contact with the SIGLENT Maintenance Center.
5.   The warranty is void if:
(1) Accidental damage occurs during transportation (please confer with insurance agency or transportation company on the compensation).
(2) Malfunction or damage is caused by misuse according to warnings in the product documentation or using or storing in an environment outside of the specification’s limits.
(3) Surface damage by manmade factors, like burn, distortion by force, etc.
(4) Repaired by anyone who is not from SIGLENT Maintenance Center or an authorized maintenance branch.
(5) Accident damage caused by using a power cord or a power adapter not approved by SIGLENT.
(6) Malfunction or damage caused by natural calamities, like earthquake, lightning strike, etc.
6.   If the received products have exceeded the warranty time period or the lifetime warranty, SIGLENT will still provide the related repair and or maintenance services. However, the owners of the products are responsible for the repair and or maintenance charges, the return shipping charges and any additional costs.
7.   SIGLENT assumes partial maintenance responsibility which is reasonable and operable, and refuses to accept any other responsibility for the damage caused by the customers’ wrong operation.
8.   Product with fault not covered by warranty should be transported to SIGLENT Maintenance Center to have a repair, and the consignor will pay the transportation cost.
9.   Please contact with SIGLENT Maintenance Center for any kind of special maintenance or service requirement.
10.   No Liability & No Promise Clauses. SIGLENT will not be liable for the inevitable, indirect, or supplementary damages of the product purchasers or the third party users that are caused by its product deficiency; for example, loss of profitability, loss of sales investment, loss of business image or enterprise interactional obstacles. In addition, SIGLENT has no liability for the deficiency of other apparatus, equipment or facilities caused by the operation of its product.
The above is SIGLENT’s most complete version Warranty policy ; these clauses may displace other oral or written versions of warranty policy. Except for the above described product warranty, SIGLENT will not provide additional warranty policy other than what is described and claimed in this composition.
Warranty above applies to products sold by SIGLENT Technologies. and its authorized dealers, and any other form of warranty should e based on this. SIGLENT technology has the final power of interpretation with the maintenance affairs.

I suppose the key is going to be whether Siglent agrees that this is a defect per paragraph 2.  My thought is that the near immediate change in production units as documented in this thread is evidence of a defect and that all owners of BA serial numbered models are entitled to repair or replacement at Siglent's discretion.  I still have 12 days, so it's not unreasonable for me to wait a week before I initiate a return to Amazon to see if Siglent USA is going to offer owners of BA models a solution.

Siglent's site has a nice problem solving flowchart.

[TK]

Code: [Select]

$ cat "collect_customers_opinions" > /dev/null

[dave356]

Also see #4.  Warranty void if repaired by anyone other than Siglent or an authorized maintenance branch.

Anyone who installed the caps themselves,  Look Out!

Legally, they can refuse warranty if they so desire.

The way they are handling this, I wouldn't doubt it if they opened a return, see the caps
where there should not be, and refuse warranty coverage because of "customer Modification".

That second paragraph I think surely relates to our problem, "Hardware error due to quality or workmanship"-----

[VaZso]

Anyway, I think this case the customer was authorized as "maintenance branch".
Also, as far as I know, some retailers have done the replacement mentioned, maybe as an authorized maintenance branch, so they should not refuse warranty unrelated to changing the capacitor... if there are any warranty at all anyway...

Otherwise, the second paragraph is interesting...
"In above-mentioned periods, any hardware or software errors that occur due to quality or workmanship flaws will be examined and repaired or replaced, at Siglent’s discretion, by the SIGLENT Maintenance Center or its authorized maintenance branch at no charge."

The above has not happened, or at least the customer itself was called as "authorized maintenance branch"...

[StillTrying]

Siglent's site has a nice problem solving flowchart.

If that flowchart is done by the same bloke that does the firmware, it would explain quite a lot.

[Gandalf_Sr]

Well I tried to appeal to Steve of Siglent America but he's holding firm on his position that all I get is capacitors.  He also accused me of leaving a 1-star review for my SPD3303X-E on Amazon but I never left a review (see picture) and if I had it would probably have been 4 or 5 stars.

Hmmm, what to do next?

[imidis]

Thats lame. Should never accuse customers like that. 

[Gandalf_Sr]

I'm going to give up.  I've spent more time complaining than it would take me to fix it.  I know I could force the issue with the seller or even the credit card company but I'm done, enough, finito.

Won't buy Siglent again in a hurry.

[mr.fabe]

Well I tried to appeal to Steve of Siglent America but he's holding firm on his position that all I get is capacitors.  He also accused me of leaving a 1-star review for my SPD3303X-E on Amazon but I never left a review (see picture) and if I had it would probably have been 4 or 5 stars.

Hmmm, what to do next?

Steve is the GM for Siglent USA.  For him to respond that way with accusations is not very professional and perhaps he is the reason why the US customers lack quality support on this issue. If the folks outside the US don't have the same problem, then he is the problem.  He has been monitoring this group lately and can defend Siglent's position if he wants to.  So far, he only chooses not to.


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[N0NB]

Well I tried to appeal to Steve of Siglent America but he's holding firm on his position that all I get is capacitors.  He also accused me of leaving a 1-star review for my SPD3303X-E on Amazon but I never left a review (see picture) and if I had it would probably have been 4 or 5 stars.

Wow.  Just, wow.

I guess that now I know what sort of outfit we're dealing with.  Evidently, the principles involved don't realize (or care?) that customers do have ways of communicating with each other and that word gets around.

Other than this defect I really like the 'scope.  I just want one that is correct from the get-go.